Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

[ewq1938]

I suppose it could help with population and disease control.

The LOF is going to due a lot towards population control, that and the end of marriages for the immortal saved.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

The LOF is going to due a lot towards population control, that and the end of marriages for the immortal saved.

Please explain a bit further about the immortal saved and marriages. I am a bit confused. Thanks

 

[Neogaia777]

according to the Bible God knows the present, past and future .... that being the case with God there are not any surprises.

Look at God in the OT completely objectively please, and you'll see that there were or seemed to be... The only other explanation is that he was acting or putting on a show for us or for our benefit... Of course the problem with that is, is that it implies "deception", and I don't think that's what it was at all...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Ah, yes. I remember that story arc.

Picard, the crew, and Hugh didn't know what would happened if he had spared the Borg. And despite Data's projections, we don't know if it would have worked. Given that and the ideals of the Federation, I can see why Picard didn't do it. I wanted him to do it, even more so after I saw the later episodes.

Then again, I don't consider non-human life in a space opera to be equivalent to human life. I consider it morally equal to animal life. But I frown upon driving entire species to extinction.

In terms of the objective lessons that Star Trek teaches though, they're all equivalent and to be relatable to how to treat each other. Let's say for instance that a certain country developed Borg-like technology, and they were assimilating nations left and right unless something similar stopped them. I think you would have to stop them. Destroy the hostile cyber-components to preserve humanity. I don't consider that genocide strictly speaking, because it is the cybernetic hive mind you would be needing to destroy. If there were other people from that nation out there who had not been assimilated, I would not have them marked for death unless they were war criminals (think Unit 731 all over again as the origin point). Remember, we're talking about the Borg here, you cannot negotiate or reason with them. Break a nation of regular people hard enough, and you can negotiate and reason with them. The Borg is a special case because you cannot.

Do you think God saw those other nations and their cultures maybe, and the people or whatever, in this, or any kind of this way you are saying or not...?

That, and do you remember the episode where they encountered a secluded alien on a moon somewhere, who annihilated an entire race with a thought? And the regret he justifiably had?

Yes, I do, "The Survivors" it's called...

But are you trying to say something, or imply something or anything like that, by that, or not...?

God Bless!

 

[ewq1938]

Please explain a bit further about the immortal saved and marriages. I am a bit confused. Thanks

There is no marriage after the resurrection so immortals (who are saved Christians) will not marry which means no children.

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[Neogaia777]

Look at God in the OT completely objectively please, and you'll see that there were or seemed to be... The only other explanation is that he was acting or putting on a show for us or for our benefit... Of course the problem with that is, is that it implies "deception", and I don't think that's what it was at all...

God Bless!

I still think maybe he was trying to set up God's Kingdom on earth back then, but wouldn't he have known it was gonna fail, or why did he seem not to, or get upset about it or whatever when it did fail... That is not the behavior of a truly omniscient being...

Like I said, look at God in the OT objectively and you'll see for yourself...

Now, I have a few theories about this, and some other threads on this subject, and I could link them here if you like...?

God Bless!

 

[Sketcher]

Do you think God saw those other nations and their cultures maybe, and the people or whatever, in this, or any kind of this way you are saying or not...?

No. I don't think he needed to, though.

Yes, I do, "The Survivors" it's called...

But are you trying to say something, or imply something or anything like that, by that, or not...?

Mainly that it's not to be taken lightly.

 

[Neogaia777]

No. I don't think he needed to, though.

And why is that...? Why did he not need to...? We know He saw them in some kind of way...? So what is, or what was, it or that...?

Mainly that it's not to be taken lightly.

I agree, and I don't think God takes or took it lightly either... But, He still decided to do it... But, why is that...? Cause we know that He is just, so how can we see this the way He saw it, as just, or "justified" at least... And we know He also knows best, so how was this the best option overall...? Or maybe the only option, considering the things God was taking into account and considering... And can we know what that is specifically...? (The things He was taking into account and considering)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And why is that...? Why did he not need to...? We know He saw them in some kind of way...? So what is, or what was, it or that...?



I agree, and I don't think God takes or took it lightly either... But, He still decided to do it... But, why is that...? Cause we know that He is just, so how can we see this the way He saw it, as just, or "justified" at least... And we know He also knows best, so how was this the best option overall...? Or maybe the only option, considering the things God was taking into account and considering... And can we know what that is specifically...? (The things He was taking into account and considering)...

God Bless!

Was God responsible for the way those other nations or people were or became...?

Or did God see Himself as responsible for them at all...?

Cause if He did, and killed them anyway, what does that say...?

He, being omniscient, should have known the course not only those other nations were going to take, (or the way they would be, or become), but how "all" was gonna go, and/or be, or become, or the course all was going to take, from the very beginning, cause that is what omniscience is... So why does it seem that He did not, or may not have...?

God Bless!

 

[Yekcidmij]

If someone barged into your house (you only live with your wife), and tried to forcibly sleep with your wife, you have a moral right to kill that person.
You could make a Utilitarian argument that you should let your wife get raped under the premise that death of this individual would be an almost infinite loss of pleasure in comparison to the harm of a rape.
But you would say that this is disgusting.
Rather, you could say the self-defense of your wife is an intrinsic good.

I don't think your analogy relates to the situation in the Old Testament.

BTW, I'm not a utilitarian, so I wouldn't make any calculation about pleasure vs. pain - I'd take the guy out.

The Jews as a nation were not only necessary to bring forth the Messiah, they were necessary for the creation of the Old Testament in terms of living examples of people following God, something required for the Church's Catholicity from square one (to provide examples of how to follow God's Will and to eliminate dissenting teachings from what Christ and the Apostles wanted to teach), and the prevention of Salvation and prevention of a means used for Salvation would be something intrinsically immoral - and God, being omniscient, made the most moral calculations possible in order to allow the Jews to bring forth the Messiah, knowing all other possible outcomes.

It's an interesting theory, but I still think it makes God out to be the Great Utilitarian. He's optimizing human pleasure vs. human pain. And then the issues raised in my previous post still seem to apply.

God has no restraint, but He is goodness and is justice in of Himself. To be just and be good is to follow God, knowingly or not. Goodness isn't something defined as just a rule by God, nor is justice - but rather, it is God.

Agree, God is good and just. And is it just to use people as means to an end? Is it just to sacrifice some people for the benefit of others?

 

[eleos1954]

Look at God in the OT completely objectively please, and you'll see that there were or seemed to be... The only other explanation is that he was acting or putting on a show for us or for our benefit... Of course the problem with that is, is that it implies "deception", and I don't think that's what it was at all...

God Bless!

Isaiah 48

I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’

"putting on a show"? - well kind of ... (although I don't like the phrase you used, is demeaning God when used in conjunction with God) ;o)

Gods Word shows us what Gods character is about (very loving, yet just) and how to have a relationship with Him. It also is about mankind and what the results of sin is. We learn (or should learn) by our own experiences and by reading about the experience of others.

There's a spiritual war going on between God and satan. Mankind is in the middle of the battle and are used by both. We do know the war has been won by Jesus and we are waiting and in the battle until all who can be saved, are saved (this is His purposes) ... then the Lord will return. Satan and his minions know they have been defeated (he/they have a short time) so his/their purpose is to accomplish as much destruction against mankind as possible. Their revenge towards God. They know He loves us ... they know the good that awaits us because they were once there and they have no hope of ever returning there. Totally hopeless ... the only thing left for them is revenge.

What comes from God goes toward His purpose(s). God, knowing all things will work the bad to ultimately be for the good (as many saved as possible). Mankind has much difficulty understanding/accepting this. That is ... how can God allow terrible things to go on? It is beyond our comprehension how He works the bad to ultimately be for good. Therefore we must have faith and trust in Him completely and wait for Him patiently to complete His work to it's final end.

Book of Job is a prime example for us.

Psalms

“Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted over the earth.”

Psalm 37:7

7 Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him; do not fret when people succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes.

God Bless.

 

[Halbhh]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Imagine a town is being terrorised by a pack of wild dogs, who kill some pets and scare people, and bit a few individuals....

Imagine a Animal Control Officer says He is going to remove the pack of problem dogs, permanently.

Forever.

Then suppose later Brutus claims to everyone that the Office killed all the dogs brutally, without mercy....

Brutus says, "He was evil, an evil man!"


But one day, a cautious and careful investigator, Samwise, felt he wanted to investigate to learn all the details, for the sake of the truth.

In time, Samwise, tracking down leads, finally discovers all that happened.

Sam discovers that actually the Officer put all the dogs down with tranquilizers, and then transported them all, the whole lot, to a far away place....

Sam eventually learns that in fact all the dogs are woken up, and sorted, and some get adopted into a wonderful new Home there...far away....

In a land far away from here.


So... who told the truth about what happened, Brutus, or Samwise?

People sure thought Brutus was telling them like it is...

Brutus felt so sure of himself he convinced many.

 

[Neogaia777]

Isaiah 48

I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’

"putting on a show"? - well kind of ... (although I don't like the phrase you used, is demeaning God when used in conjunction with God) ;o)

Gods Word shows us what Gods character is about (very loving, yet just) and how to have a relationship with Him. It also is about mankind and what the results of sin is. We learn (or should learn) by our own experiences and by reading about the experience of others.

There's a spiritual war going on between God and satan. Mankind is in the middle of the battle and are used by both. We do know the war has been won by Jesus and we are waiting and in the battle until all who can be saved, are saved (this is His purposes) ... then the Lord will return. Satan and his minions know they have been defeated (he/they have a short time) so his/their purpose is to accomplish as much destruction against mankind as possible. Their revenge towards God. They know He loves us ... they know the good that awaits us because they were once there and they have no hope of ever returning there. Totally hopeless ... the only thing left for them is revenge.

What comes from God goes toward His purpose(s). God, knowing all things will work the bad to ultimately be for the good (as many saved as possible). Mankind has much difficulty understanding/accepting this. That is ... how can God allow terrible things to go on? It is beyond our comprehension how He works the bad to ultimately be for good. Therefore we must have faith and trust in Him completely and wait for Him patiently to complete His work to it's final end.

Book of Job is a prime example for us.

Psalms

“Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted over the earth.”

Psalm 37:7

7 Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him; do not fret when people succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes.

God Bless.

Sorry, I use phrases and sayings a lot, and I did say that I did not think that is what is was "at all" or anything like it at all either... I think His feelings were genuine, but would His feelings be the same feelings of a truly omniscient God or not...? (or not)...?

I'm kind of wrestling with this whole thing or idea with emotions and feelings, ect and a truly 100% fully omniscient truly supreme being, or God, or true God...?

And, If you set the end from the beginning, why even interact or be a part of anything or any of it with us or interfere or ever intervene at all...? Of course then maybe He wanted to be a part of it, but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?

God Bless!

 

[Halbhh]

Sorry, I use phrases and sayings a lot, and I did say that I did not think that is what is was "at all" or anything like it at all either... I think His feelings were genuine, but would His feelings be the same feelings of a truly omniscient God or not...? (or not)...?

I'm kind of wrestling with this whole thing or idea with emotions and feelings, ect and a truly 100% fully omniscient truly supreme being, or God, or true God...?

And, If you set the end from the beginning, why even interact or be a part of anything or any of it with us or interfere or ever intervene at all...? Of course then maybe He wanted to be a part of it, but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?

God Bless!

Why does a parent interfere and intervene. For God so loved his many children that he sent his beloved Son Who was with Him since before the world, that whosoever would respond to Him with belief/trust might be redeemed from their wrongs and rescued into Life, to become members even of His wonderful household forever. Love.

That we do wrongs shows He has given us autonomy, freedom, being.

He *chooses* certain ends from the beginnings we know. Past that people are speculating.

 

[Neogaia777]

Why does a parent interfere and intervene. For God so loved his many children that he sent his beloved Son Who was with Him since before the world, that whosoever would respond to Him with belief/trust might be redeemed from their wrongs and rescued into Life, to become members even of His wonderful household forever. Love.

I think the Son is/was the one sent to interfere and intervene, and maybe the Father vicariously through Him or something maybe...?

God Bless!

 

[eleos1954]

Sorry, I use phrases and sayings a lot, and I did say that I did not think that is what is was "at all" or anything like it at all either... I think His feelings were genuine, but would His feelings be the same feelings of a truly omniscient God or not...? (or not)...?

I'm kind of wrestling with this whole thing or idea with emotions and feelings, ect and a truly 100% fully omniscient truly supreme being, or God, or true God...?

And, If you set the end from the beginning, why even interact or be a part of anything or any of it with us or interfere or ever intervene at all...? Of course then maybe He wanted to be a part of it, but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?

God Bless!

"And, If you set the end from the beginning, why even interact or be a part of anything or any of it with us or interfere or ever intervene at all...?"

We have a creator God. God is love ... it's not just something He does it is what He is. Try to comprehend that. Love is the height of His character/being. Who He is.

1 John 4
New American Standard Bible
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

So, He likes to create things and He is Love. The evidence of love requires more than one. To give love and to receive love takes more than one. True love also requires free will. One can not make (force) someone love another ... true love must be through freewill. The will (of God) to give love and will (of mankind) return it.

1 John 4
King James Bible
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Agape Love -
"to will the good of another." especially charity ....
the love of God for man and of man for a good God...
used to express the unconditional love of God for his children.

God is very relationship oriented ... family. He created beings ultimately to be one HUGE loving family for eternity and to provide an environment filled entirely with love and creations for them to enjoy and learn about.

"Of course then maybe He wanted to be a part of it,"

John 17
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
21 “That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us. “

This is what it is about, all His created beings being one with Him just as Jesus is. More than "part" .... ONE.

'but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?"

He did show Himself to mankind and what happened? You think anything would be different now.? Of course not.

Also, protection for us. Satan will show himself as an angel of light and will deceive many.

2nd Corinthians

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

"And, If you set the end from the beginning, why even interact or be a part of anything or any of it with us or interfere or ever intervene at all...?"

We have a creator God. God is love ... it's not just something He does it is what He is. Try to comprehend that. Love is the height of His character/being. Who He is.

1 John 4
New American Standard Bible
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

So, He likes to create things and He is Love. The evidence of love requires more than one. To give love and to receive love takes more than one. True love also requires free will. One can not make (force) someone love another ... true love must be through freewill. The will (of God) to give love and will (of mankind) return it.

1 John 4
King James Bible
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Agape Love -
"to will the good of another." especially charity ....
the love of God for man and of man for a good God...
used to express the unconditional love of God for his children.

God is very relationship oriented ... family. He created beings ultimately to be one HUGE loving family for eternity and to provide an environment filled entirely with love and creations for them to enjoy and learn about.

"Of course then maybe He wanted to be a part of it,"

John 17
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
21 “That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us. “

This is what it is about, all His created beings being one with Him just as Jesus is. More than "part" .... ONE.

'but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?"

He did show Himself to mankind and what happened? You think anything would be different now.? Of course not.

Also, protection for us. Satan will show himself as an angel of light and will deceive many.

2nd Corinthians

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

God Bless.

I must apologize again, as I was just expressing my thought process in my brain/head verbally (again), as I will do "that" at times also...

About showing Himself to mankind, why does God in the OT seem so much different from Jesus in the NT...?

Good post BTW, thanks,

God Bless!

 

[eleos1954]

I must apologize again, as I was just expressing my thought process in my brain/head verbally (again), as I will do "that" at times also...

About showing Himself to mankind, why does God in the OT seem so much different from Jesus in the NT...?

Good post BTW, thanks,

God Bless!

"About showing Himself to mankind" as stated in my last post.

'but then why does He show Himself first to us as what He was like and how He did in the OT...?"

He did show Himself to mankind and what happened? You think anything would be different now.? Of course not.

Also, protection for us. Satan will show himself as an angel of light and will deceive many.

2nd Corinthians

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

why does God in the OT seem so much different from Jesus in the NT...?

I don't see any difference with God in the OT verses the NT ... for the most part mankind of the OT were more preoccupied with law rather than being more preoccupied and focused on Gods love. Gods love has always been there ... always.

Ecclesiastes 1

English Standard Version
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

"I must apologize again, as I was just expressing my thought process in my brain/head verbally (again), as I will do "that" at times also..."

No worries ;o) I might also at times remind you ;o)

 

[hedrick]

That wouldn't have been genocide, it would have been part of prosecuting a just war. Picard was having an attack of scruples - blame his scriptwriters.

Right. The ethics of war are painful. We can't always avoid killing innocents. If we don't intend to kill off a whole people, but the only way to stop an attack that will kill of another whole people has that as a side effect, that's not quite genocide. The goal isn't to kill off a nation, the goal is self-defense. However a very careful balancing has to be done, on the damage that will likely be done in either alternative, and the likelihood of success.

This kind of decision -- though not typically not quite at the level of genocide -- often has to be made during war. There are still debates whether the firebombing of Dresden and the use of the atom bombs against the Japanese were justified.

 

[chilehed]

Right. The ethics of war are painful. We can't always avoid killing innocents.

True, but not applicable here. There were no civilian noncombatants among the Borg.