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Is Genetics a Program?

Is Genetics a Program?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • No

    Votes: 12 92.3%

  • Total voters
    13

Shemjaza

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Chance makes chaos not complexity, complexity must be created and maintained by intelligence, agendas can cause us to disregard the obvious. It is easy to see that someone designed and built a computer or some other machine, but that does not threaten anyone's faith whether it be in chaos or Christianity. But when the design glorifies the intelligence, that's when people start to get nervous.
Chaos makes differences, it's survival that selects and refines it.

You aren't providing any evidence, just repeating that it's obvious. Incidentally, some of the people you are speaking to are Christians AND accept evolution.
 
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Hallstone

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Chaos makes differences, it's survival that selects and refines it.

You aren't providing any evidence, just repeating that it's obvious. Incidentally, some of the people you are speaking to are Christians AND accept evolution.
The evidence is all around us, the whole point is, a complex working system has to be designed and created, it cannot just happen, it would be like saying that a computer could just happen by itself, thinking that complex systems can happen without intelligent design and manufacture goes against the laws of physics. A mechanical system whether biological or otherwise must be designed, it is too complex to rely on chance, it would be astronomically impossible, there is your evidence.
 
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Shemjaza

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The evidence is all around us, the whole point is, a complex working system has to be designed and created, it cannot just happen, it would be like saying that a computer could just happen by itself, thinking that complex systems can happen without intelligent design and manufacture goes against the laws of physics. A mechanical system whether biological or otherwise must be designed, it is too complex to rely on chance, it would be astronomically impossible, there is your evidence.
"It's all around us" is just another way of saying "it's obvious".

The point is that the steps required to increase complexity are actually quite small and understandable. It just takes a very, very long time, and a very, very large number of steps. But, as I said before, we have evidence of both these things.
 
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Radagast

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That's a brave statement. It would depend on the aesthetics and level of intelligence of the designer.
Brave? no, just reasonable inference. The aesthetic and level of intelligence demonstrated are those one would expect of a natural evolutionary process and the results precisely match that statistical profile; so it seems unreasonable to suggest it's the deliberate product of intelligence. Occam's Razor applies.
 
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Radagast

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Brave? no, just reasonable inference

No, it was more like an unimaginative reaction, actually. Your comment isn't true for the (quite plausible) fictional intelligent aliens in the novel The Mote in God's Eye, it isn't even true for certain intelligent humans I've met or for computer-assisted humans (producing e.g. SA-optimised hardware or compiler-optimised code), and it certainly isn't likely to be true for beings with a level of intelligence sufficiently beyond the human.

The standard engineering techniques which humans use exist to get reliable performance out of complicated systems in spite of the fact that humans can't represent the whole system in their head at the same time. A sufficiently intelligent being might not feel the need to use such techniques.

To argue "humans would not design a system like this, therefore no intelligent being would design a system like this" is fallacious.
 
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Shemjaza

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No, it was more like an unimaginative reaction, actually. Your comment isn't true for the (quite plausible) fictional intelligent aliens in the novel The Mote in God's Eye, it isn't even true for certain intelligent humans I've met or for computer-assisted humans (producing e.g. SA-optimised hardware or compiler-optimised code), and it certainly isn't likely to be true for beings with a level of intelligence sufficiently beyond the human.

The standard engineering techniques which humans use exist to get reliable performance out of complicated systems in spite of the fact that humans can't represent the whole system in their head at the same time. A sufficiently intelligent being might not feel the need to use such techniques.

To argue "humans would not design a system like this, therefore no intelligent being would design a system like this" is fallacious.
I think you are missing the point.

It's not that genetics is so amazing that it couldn't be designed, it's that genetics is preposterously badly designed and an intelligent agent wouldn't have built in so many errors and barely functional hacks. Certainly not a all-powerful one.
 
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Radagast

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I think you are missing the point.

It's not that genetics is so amazing that it couldn't be designed, it's that genetics is preposterously badly designed and an intelligent agent wouldn't have built in so many errors and barely functional hacks. Certainly not a all-powerful one.

There are certainly genes that are broken, but what on earth do you mean by "barely functional hacks"?

In general, organisms are very highly optimised, although the optimisation criteria may not be obvious at first glance.
 
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Shemjaza

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There are certainly genes that are broken, but what on earth do you mean by "barely functional hacks"?

In general, organisms are very highly optimised, although the optimisation criteria may not be obvious at first glance.
Much of our DNA is non coding.

Atavisms like hens teeth, human tails and snake legs.
Giraffe laryngeal nerves.
Endogenous retrovirus insertions.
 
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Radagast

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Much of our DNA is non coding.

Atavisms like hens teeth, human tails and snake legs.

Well, I think the jury is still out on what non-coding DNA is for.

As to the atavisms on your list, humans embryos do indeed have a tail, and certain snakes do indeed have vestigial legs, as a consequence of embryo development code being shared between different animal species. I don't think this qualifies as a "barely functional hack," nor is "code reuse" incompatible with design (although it does rule out the idea of each animal being designed de novo).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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To argue "humans would not design a system like this, therefore no intelligent being would design a system like this" is fallacious.
That isn't the argument. The argument is that an intelligent mind wouldn't design a system that is indistinguishable in structure and function from the product of natural evolutionary processes, because an intelligent design would show some evidence of intelligence. I.e. it is not reasonable to invoke intelligence as the proximate cause for something indistinguishable from the result of processes not involving intelligence.

This is not to say that an intelligent designer could not be a distal cause, i.e. could design a system to produce designs via evolutionary processes - which is what we do with generative design systems. But that's a different question.
 
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Radagast

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That isn't the argument. The argument is that an intelligent mind wouldn't design a system that is indistinguishable in structure and function from the product of natural evolutionary processes, because an intelligent design would show some evidence of intelligence. I.e. it is not reasonable to invoke intelligence as the proximate cause for something indistinguishable from the result of processes not involving intelligence.

An alien intelligent designer might well design an optimised system that looked like the result of natural evolutionary processes, but was produced much more quickly.

And some of John Koza's work with genetic programming involved getting evolutionary processes to mimic creative (patented) human electronics designs.

This is not to say that an intelligent designer could not be a distal cause, i.e. could design a system to produce designs via evolutionary processes - which is what we do with generative design systems. But that's a different question.

And there are designs that combine hand-coded material with constrained evolutionary processes. I've done things that way myself.
 
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Hallstone

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"It's all around us" is just another way of saying "it's obvious".

The point is that the steps required to increase complexity are actually quite small and understandable. It just takes a very, very long time, and a very, very large number of steps. But, as I said before, we have evidence of both these things.
But that is still saying that complexity can compound and be enhanced just by chance which is something that would have to programmed into the original design, because no design gets better on its own impetus unless its included in the design, that's how machine systems work.
 
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sfs

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But that is still saying that complexity can compound and be enhanced just by chance which is something that would have to programmed into the original design, because no design gets better on its own impetus unless its included in the design, that's how machine systems work.
So you keep saying. But repeating it doesn't make it true.
 
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Shemjaza

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But that is still saying that complexity can compound and be enhanced just by chance which is something that would have to programmed into the original design, because no design gets better on its own impetus unless its included in the design, that's how machine systems work.
It can. It's trivial to describe how it is possible.

AAGTTCGATA is a genetic sequence
the section "TCG" is repeated and the section becomes:
AAGTTCGTCGATA
in a later generation the "T" in the new "TCG" sequence becomes "A" and the section is now:
AAGTTCGACGATA

In all likelihood this mutation is completely neutral, but if it is even slightly beneficial we have a new trait present and the complexity has increased. No intent and no preplanning required.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But that is still saying that complexity can compound and be enhanced just by chance which is something that would have to programmed into the original design, because no design gets better on its own impetus unless its included in the design, that's how machine systems work.
The point is that it is not just by chance that it gets better or more complex; it's by chance and selection. Chance provides the random variations in fitness. Selection eliminates less fit variants, filtering the population so that what's left is the fittest variants, and they will make the next generation.

Also, there is no bias towards more complexity, only towards whatever makes for successful production of viable offspring.
 
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Hallstone

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It can. It's trivial to describe how it is possible.

AAGTTCGATA is a genetic sequence
the section "TCG" is repeated and the section becomes:
AAGTTCGTCGATA
in a later generation the "T" in the new "TCG" sequence becomes "A" and the section is now:
AAGTTCGACGATA

In all likelihood this mutation is completely neutral, but if it is even slightly beneficial we have a new trait present and the complexity has increased. No intent and no preplanning required.
But couldn't that be simply attributed to an adaptive system that was written into the original program that allows living systems to adapt and survive in various environments, we can program a digital system to do that, to a certain extent, but not with the same complexity. Do we assume that just because it is biological then it must just somehow magically happen on its own impetus. Does the creations of man mimic the creation of God, in the sense that they operate with hard information that has inputs, outputs, and frequencies interacting in order to operate biological machinery?
 
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Hallstone

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The point is that it is not just by chance that it gets better or more complex; it's by chance and selection. Chance provides the random variations in fitness. Selection eliminates less fit variants, filtering the population so that what's left is the fittest variants, and they will make the next generation.

Also, there is no bias towards more complexity, only towards whatever makes for successful production of viable offspring.
Sounds like Logic to me, the stuff that every digital system starts and operates with, this is one of the attributes that digital engineers are working to achieve, an intelligent system that can operate and adapt to almost any environment, as the science gets better so vision gets clearer, I think maybe we are sometimes missing something because we do not want to see some of the things that have light shining on them now. A system that has hard information reacting to inputs and frequencies to create outputs is "Logic" and that must be written.
 
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