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Is Genetics a Program?

Is Genetics a Program?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • No

    Votes: 12 92.3%

  • Total voters
    13

FrumiousBandersnatch

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Sounds like Logic to me, the stuff that every digital system starts and operates with, this is one of the attributes that digital engineers are working to achieve, an intelligent system that can operate and adapt to almost any environment...
I don't think that word means what you think it means. The principle of evolution by natural selection is logical, but it isn't logic.

A system that has hard information reacting to inputs and frequencies to create outputs is "Logic" and that must be written.
I can't make sense of this; all dynamical systems 'react to inputs' to 'create outputs', including all natural systems, living and non-living.

And what is 'hard' information? and frequencies of what?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But couldn't that be simply attributed to an adaptive system that was written into the original program that allows living systems to adapt and survive in various environments...
Of course it could - if there was some reason to think there was an 'original program' that had an 'adaptive system written into it'. But there isn't.

Do we assume that just because it is biological then it must just somehow magically happen on its own impetus.
No, we don't assume that. Magic does not appear to be involved (i.e. the laws of physics apply).

We look at how it works - and we see that it is all based on chemistry, and it's a special case of self-sustaining reactions (like, for example, fire) that persist by using energy from external sources to release more energy from external sources. Once they get started, they're quite hard to stop. In physics jargon, life is thermodynamically favourable - complex systems maximize the dissipation of energy, and the sun provides a steep energy gradient to drive the development of complex systems to dissipate that energy, when the conditions are right - and it's not just life, look at the weather systems on Jupiter, for example. But the processes of life, with their convoluted complexities, dissipate energy very effectively indeed.

Does the creations of man mimic the creation of God, in the sense that they operate with hard information that has inputs, outputs, and frequencies interacting in order to operate biological machinery?
You're assuming God and its creation there, but no, all dynamic systems from galaxies to man-made machines, work on the same principles - increasing entropy by dissipating energy; mimicry not relevant, it all uses the same principles.

You can certainly claim that a God created the universe and the rules by which it works, and lay out a rich and detailed mythology for it, but anyone can make an equally meaningful claim about their preferred origin and its cause - and they do... here's a list of creation myths, all equally valid and meaningful.

But really, meh.
 
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Hallstone

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I don't think that word means what you think it means. The principle of evolution by natural selection is logical, but it isn't logic.

I can't make sense of this; all dynamical systems 'react to inputs' to 'create outputs', including all natural systems, living and non-living.

And what is 'hard' information? and frequencies of what?
Genetics being the hard/permanent information, and then various chemical actions and reactions, and frequencies such as electro/chemical frequencies of the brain for instance, and I'm sure there are more instances of frequencies, both chemical and electric. which make up the 'natural' logic in which all things function,
 
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Hallstone

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Of course it could - if there was some reason to think there was an 'original program' that had an 'adaptive system written into it'. But there isn't.

No, we don't assume that. Magic does not appear to be involved (i.e. the laws of physics apply).

We look at how it works - and we see that it is all based on chemistry, and it's a special case of self-sustaining reactions (like, for example, fire) that persist by using energy from external sources to release more energy from external sources. Once they get started, they're quire hard to stop. In physics jargon, life is thermodynamically favourable - complex systems maximize the dissipation of energy, and the sun provides a steep energy gradient to drive the development of complex systems to dissipate that energy, when the conditions are right - and it's not just life, look at the weather systems on Jupiter, for example. But the processes of life, with their convoluted complexities, dissipate energy very effectively indeed.

You're assuming God and its creation there, but no, all dynamic systems from galaxies to man-made machines, work on the same principles - increasing entropy by dissipating energy; mimicry not relevant, it all uses the same principles.

You can certainly claim that a God created the universe and the rules by which it works, and lay out a rich and detailed mythology for it, but anyone can make an equally meaningful claim about their preferred origin and its cause - and they do... here's a list of creation myths, all equally valid and meaningful.

But really, meh.
I am trying to point out that there is intelligent design in every system, and that random chance cannot start anything, because everything has a start, and an end, the logic involved in the universe points to order and not chaos, things can start with order and end in chaos, but not the other way around, you can make a firecracker that will explode but you can not make an explosion create a firecracker. A simple bacteria has complex systems within it and it behaves according to the programming with which it was designed, its behavior is recorded inside it and that behavior is passed on to the following generations through copies of information that is passed on. Even a simple thing like a bacteria cannot start from chemicals and raw materials, that would mean that a complex system would be creating and starting itself, that's why the whole idea of evolution when taken to its logical conclusions creates absurdities and conundrums pertaining to beginnings and endings. If there are flaws in the design it only proves that the design is running down so to speak, not getting better.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I am trying to point out that there is intelligent design in every system...
Unsupported assertion. I can't take it seriously unless you can support it, preferably with persuasive evidence.

... random chance cannot start anything, because everything has a start, and an end, the logic involved in the universe points to order and not chaos, things can start with order and end in chaos, but not the other way around..
I don't know who told you this, but it's not correct. There's a whole field of science based on how order arises out of disorder - much of it involving self-assembly. Familiar examples are crystals that self-assemble from randomly distributed ions in solution, or snowflakes self-assembling as random water vapour molecules freeze onto a seed particle. Some organic molecules, such as lipids, spontaneously form sheets and vesicles from solution.

If by chaos you mean deterministic unpredictability, the sensitive dependence on initial conditions (as Lorenz said, "Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future"), that too can give rise to ordered structures - check out strange attractors, and fractals. Persistent weather systems (e.g. tornadoes, Jupiter's Great Red Spot, etc.) are examples too.

Certain events at the quantum level seem to be the only true randomness, but at macro scales any influence from them becomes indistinguishable from Lorenzian chaos for everyday considerations; the macro world is FAPP (For All Practical Purposes) deterministic (if not always predictable).

you can make a firecracker that will explode but you can not make an explosion create a firecracker.
An example of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a statistical rule. It's easy to find such examples, but it doesn't mean order cannot arise out of disorder (see self-assembly above). Entropy (roughly disorder) always increases over time in isolated systems, but most systems we deal with aren't isolated, and entropy can decrease locally at the expense of an overall increase. So the sun is a source of low entropy energy that can drive systems on Earth from disorder to order at the expense of an overall increase in entropy (e.g. thermal radiation from Earth).

A simple bacteria has complex systems within it and it behaves according to the programming with which it was designed, its behavior is recorded inside it and that behavior is passed on to the following generations through copies of information that is passed on.
I'd agree with that, with the caveat that the 'designer' is the evolutionary process which 'programs' it by repeatedly selecting the most successful variants from a large number of random variations (i.e. killing off unsuccessful variants).

Even a simple thing like a bacteria cannot start from chemicals and raw materials, that would mean that a complex system would be creating and starting itself...
I've already shown that complex systems can self-assemble, so there's no reason to deny that of life itself. Of course, bacteria, like all other life on Earth, have had over 3.5 billion years of evolutionary development; the earliest life would have been relatively simple replicating molecules.

Lab research has already found conditions in which nucleotides, themselves self-assembled out of solution, will spontaneously assemble into RNA molecules. If self-assembled RNA were to become encapsulated by self-assembled lipid vesicles, you have a plausible route to a proto-cell. See The Secret of How Life on Earth Began for a readable overview of the research to date.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Chance makes chaos not complexity

Chaos and complexity aren't the same thing.
Furthermore, evolution isn't just chance.

So your statement is wrong in a multitude of ways.

, complexity must be created and maintained by intelligence

That is demonstrably false. Showing it false is as easy as pointing to any complex thing that naturally occurs. Like a hurricane for example.

Not to mention there actually isn't a "measure" for complexity either.
So even if I would agree, you'ld have no way of doing any kind of meaningfull assessment of "how complex" a thing is, let alone that you'ld be able to draw a magical line where "natural complexity" turns into "artificial complexity" for whatever reason (which you haven't provided either).

So all in all... this was just yet another one of your meaningless and vague assertions.

, agendas can cause us to disregard the obvious.

You mean like... agenda's of fundamentalist theists?


It is easy to see that someone designed and built a computer or some other machine

Yes, because those things are human build devices. You can actually go and visit the factories where those devices are made.

, but that does not threaten anyone's faith whether it be in chaos or Christianity

Well, that would certainly be quite silly.

But when the design glorifies the intelligence, that's when people start to get nervous.

You have yet to demonstrate any of this.
Meanwhile, all the evidence is pointed at natural processes.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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The evidence is all around us, the whole point is, a complex working system has to be designed and created, it cannot just happen, it would be like saying that a computer could just happen by itself


Computers don't reproduce with variation and aren't in competition with one another in a quest for survival and finding a breeding mate.

So why would one expect them to be subject to processes which are literally the inevitable result of such systems of imperfect replication?

, thinking that complex systems can happen without intelligent design and manufacture goes against the laws of physics

Which law would that be, exactly?


A mechanical system whether biological or otherwise must be designed, it is too complex to rely on chance, it would be astronomically impossible, there is your evidence.

The evidence is... you asserting it?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Genetics being the hard/permanent information, and then various chemical actions and reactions, and frequencies such as electro/chemical frequencies of the brain for instance, and I'm sure there are more instances of frequencies, both chemical and electric. which make up the 'natural' logic in which all things function,
Frequency is just the rate at which something occurs, how it is relevant?

Can you define or explain what you mean by 'natural logic' in this context? do you just mean how things interact?
 
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Hallstone

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Frequency is just the rate at which something occurs, how it is relevant?

Can you define or explain what you mean by 'natural logic' in this context? do you just mean how things interact?
For instance take a woman's cycle, this complex cycle would suggest biological sample rates, and timing, or rather frequencies and refresh rates, which would suggest biological logic or 'programming', and many other systems of the body can be assessed in this way, if a person cares to examine the universe in a 'mechanical' sense. Because in a sense the universe and all it contains can be perceived as a very complex, finely tuned machine, in which chance is provided for as a part of the programming.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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For instance take a woman's cycle, this complex cycle would suggest biological sample rates, and timing, or rather frequencies and refresh rates, which would suggest biological logic or 'programming', and many other systems of the body can be assessed in this way, if a person cares to examine the universe in a 'mechanical' sense.
You seem fixated on 'programming'. Biological cycles are based on biological clocks, sometimes adjusted by the light & dark changes between day & night (circadian clocks). Many simple creatures orient or move according to light & dark cycles, tidal cycles, or lunar cycles, and the mechanism by which they do so have been explained - they use biochemical oscillators, sequences of chemical reactions that periodically repeat, such as oxidation–reduction cycles of peroxiredoxin proteins. In more complex creatures like mammals, these cycles are adjusted and managed via genetic feedback loops.

Here's a video of a chemical oscillator for your enjoyment:

Because in a sense the universe and all it contains can be perceived as a very complex, finely tuned machine, in which chance is provided for as a part of the programming.
You can call it a machine, and claim it works by programming designed into it, but that doesn't change the fact that, given the fundamental laws of physics we observe in the universe, and a high-energy, low-entropy, start to the universe as we know it, the rest of what you call a 'machine' emerges quite naturally, with no need for explicit design or programming. The strong and weak nuclear forces hold together the elementary particles that make up the elements, the electromagnetic force binds elements into compounds, and gravity pulls it all together on a large scale, into galaxies, stars, and planets.

You can certainly claim that the laws of physics we observe, and the initial state of the universe as we know it, were created or configured by some inexplicable creator or designer before the universe got going - as I mentioned earlier, there's no shortage of fanciful origin myths, with or without an intelligent designer; but from that point (i.e. the 'big bang') on, to paraphrase Laplace, "We have no need of that hypothesis".
 
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Hallstone

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You seem fixated on 'programming'. Biological cycles are based on biological clocks, sometimes adjusted by the light & dark changes between day & night (circadian clocks). Many simple creatures orient or move according to light & dark cycles, tidal cycles, or lunar cycles, and the mechanism by which they do so have been explained - they use biochemical oscillators, sequences of chemical reactions that periodically repeat, such as oxidation–reduction cycles of peroxiredoxin proteins. In more complex creatures like mammals, these cycles are adjusted and managed via genetic feedback loops.

Here's a video of a chemical oscillator for your enjoyment:


You can call it a machine, and claim it works by programming designed into it, but that doesn't change the fact that, given the fundamental laws of physics we observe in the universe, and a high-energy, low-entropy, start to the universe as we know it, the rest of what you call a 'machine' emerges quite naturally, with no need for explicit design or programming. The strong and weak nuclear forces hold together the elementary particles that make up the elements, the electromagnetic force binds elements into compounds, and gravity pulls it all together on a large scale, into galaxies, stars, and planets.

You can certainly claim that the laws of physics we observe, and the initial state of the universe as we know it, were created or configured by some inexplicable creator or designer before the universe got going - as I mentioned earlier, there's no shortage of fanciful origin myths, with or without an intelligent designer; but from that point (i.e. the 'big bang') on, to paraphrase Laplace, "We have no need of that hypothesis".
Everyone has the need to believe in something whether it be Intelligent Chaos or Purposeful Created Order, My personal opinion can only be formulated from my own personal assessment of what I feel to be true, which is the right of all beings to do. I rather think that all of this is a 'Matrix' so to speak, and that it is a purposeful Creation, with even the atomic structure being the interface between the Spiritual and the Physical, which is being thoughtfully maintained moment to moment by a Supreme Being for a very great purpose, and all of the systems that exist in the Universe from small to the great exist according to His design. I say this not to offend anyone, but to simply state my perception that all people have a right to, and I respect everyone's viewpoint, and think that people who have commented have made very interesting observations. This world is a very fascinating place and I know we will continue to discover truths as we go along. The Bible says that 'We exist in Him', and when I read this I always get the picture that the Universe is like a 'Bubble' that exists inside Him. We all have to believe in something, because something cannot come from nothing unless something does it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Everyone has the need to believe in something whether it be Intelligent Chaos or Purposeful Created Order...
Not everyone needs to believe like that. Many people feel the need to acknowledge uncertainty.

My personal opinion can only be formulated from my own personal assessment of what I feel to be true, which is the right of all beings to do.
As long as you can distinguish between what is likely to be true and what is wishful thinking or fantasy.

I rather think that all of this is a 'Matrix' so to speak, and that it is a purposeful Creation, with even the atomic structure being the interface between the Spiritual and the Physical, which is being thoughtfully maintained moment to moment by a Supreme Being for a very great purpose, and all of the systems that exist in the Universe from small to the great exist according to His design.
Cool story.

We all have to believe in something, because something cannot come from nothing unless something does it.
That's a non-sequitur - and a deepity of Chopra-esque proportions (if something does it, it hasn't come from nothing... and no, we don't all have to believe in something).
 
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Hallstone

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Not everyone needs to believe like that. Many people feel the need to acknowledge uncertainty.

As long as you can distinguish between what is likely to be true and what is wishful thinking or fantasy.

Cool story.

That's a non-sequitur - and a deepity of Chopra-esque proportions (if something does it, it hasn't come from nothing... and no, we don't all have to believe in something).
We create fantasy with digital machines and pixels, is it so impossible to believe that a Supreme Being is creating a physical dimension with atoms in much the same way? Every good story has some elements of truth in it, that's what makes it a good story, I suppose it just depends on which pill you choose to take. But this is more a philosophy statement than biological science. Though I suppose an atom could be perceived as a 5> dimensional pixel in that sense, and what powers it?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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We create fantasy with digital machines and pixels, is it so impossible to believe that a Supreme Being is creating a physical dimension with atoms in much the same way? Every good story has some elements of truth in it, that's what makes it a good story, I suppose it just depends on which pill you choose to take. But this is more a philosophy statement than biological science. Though I suppose an atom could be perceived as a 5> dimensional pixel in that sense, and what powers it?
Keep taking the pills...
 
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Ophiolite

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We create fantasy with digital machines and pixels, is it so impossible to believe that a Supreme Being is creating a physical dimension with atoms in much the same way?
It is not impossible to believe, but given that there are various alternatives and many thousand variations on the nature of the Supreme Being(s), then it seems churlish to opt for just one.
 
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