Is Free Will the ultimate sin?

[Zoness]

Question in topic. This is a theme I've discovered when I re-read the Christian creation story. From a Christian perspective, it seems we were created with the ability to make choices and Adam and Eve made the wrong ones condemning humanity.

Often I am approached with "Well its your choice, you can believe in God and follow his rules or you can suffer for eternity". There is no equal weighting to these choices; if most decisions we make are evil by virtue of a "sin nature", then why even be allowed free will? Just so God can watch us fail? I do not understand this.

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

 

[JackofSpades]

I believe in some version of original sin. Not so much in moral sense (bit unclear what I think about this part), but as in lack of spiritual capacities to make contact with god. I think I'm dependent of god in search of god, in sense that I can go only as deep as he allows me to go in spiritual things.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

Free will is not universal christian theology. In my country, free will is almost curse word for many christians (lutherians). They think free will was destroyed at apple eating moment and since then no person has had free will towards God.

In their theology humanity had free will and they used it and now its gone. And since then everyone is hellbound and only ones whom God gives extra mercy to choose him, will do so.

 

[prov1810]

if most decisions we make are evil by virtue of a "sin nature", then why even be allowed free will? Just so God can watch us fail? I do not understand this.

I don't understand the question. If the sin nature controls us, we don't have free will.

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

The value of the gift of life isn't up for a vote, even if "so many" waste this gift.

 

[CryOfALion]

Question in topic. This is a theme I've discovered when I re-read the Christian creation story. From a Christian perspective, it seems we were created with the ability to make choices and Adam and Eve made the wrong ones condemning humanity.

Often I am approached with "Well its your choice, you can believe in God and follow his rules or you can suffer for eternity". There is no equal weighting to these choices; if most decisions we make are evil by virtue of a "sin nature", then why even be allowed free will? Just so God can watch us fail? I do not understand this.

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

We don't have free will; we have limited* will.

Everything happened already. Everything. Consider that for the following:

Adam and Eve weren't set up. Omniscience does not excuse the finite science (knowledge) Adam and Eve had, and their decisions. And yet, with this iteration of creation, God anticipated/knew what would happen, and made available a savior/redeemer from the foundations of creation - Christ. So, technically, this experience is just that - experience. We already make it with God because of the Redeemer He gave us - so long as we walk like Him.

This is important - Christ. GOD knew everything. The angels did not, and most likely thought "The Old Man" was losing His marbles creating a race of physical creatures to be His family, who would have been esteemed in glory and power at least as much as the angels. So, they did their shenanigans, and continue to do so. Still, even they don't have free will. However, because the angels are not subject to physical time (9,000,000,000 hyper fine transitions of Cs-133,) and because of their incredible charge, and knowledge, the fallen's actions were seen as deplorable. Hell - the Lake of Fire, etc. - are meant for those fallen angels in chains, and any others. Demons (another entity completely) are destined to roam the earth, longing for a physical vessel. Humans - no matter "evil" - have a redeemer.

So, we have several pieces to a puzzle.

The first is there is no free will; I should say no unholy creature has free will. Only holy entities have free will. And, since being holy means following the will of God, then those with free will are paradoxically doing God's will, and not their own free will.

God always had a plan for a Savior and Redeemer for humans**.

Adam and Eve were responsible for their own actions despite God's omniscience.

Adam and Eve, nor their human** progeny are destined for hell - hell us for rebellious angels who should know better than to sin.


What can we take from this? Perhaps this life is a lesson in humility. If we are heirs to God, then it would only be right that we experience what it is like to be no better than scum, so to speak. No one wants a prince, princess, queen or king that can't relate to the people. How can we rule with mercy, patience, justice, compassion, dignity, honor, truth and freedom when we have not been through situations that test and fortify these qualities in us? This is trial by fire. This is making silver and gold pure through fire.

There is a profound purpose for God letting us go through these things. This iteration of creation has God allowing fallen angels to disobey Him and influence us - feeding their fickle egos, whilst using these foolish angels to teach us life lessons. The fall is a teaching tool.

I have never birthed a child because I am male. It would be disingenuous for me to talk about the pain of childbearing as if I 100% empathize with the feelings - physical, emotional and psychological. In order to understand the depth of something as monumental as pregnancy, I would at least need to be a woman (and then, have a chikd.) Likewise with us.

This life, the fall, repentance, guilt, fear, love, hate, etc. - all part of the plan of God for us to have a free experience as fallen creatures needing saving so that we could be like Christ - children/family of God. It is a profound experience, and it is "free" experience because technically God gave us a "get out of hell free" card with Christ. - so long as we believe, have faith in Him, and strive for holiness/obedience.











*Limited will meaning we cannot do whatever we want to do. There is a measure of predestination, or rather "control and sustainability" from God that limits every created being's will. We have the free will to choose to accept Him, or reject Him. That is the importance of our will - all that matters.

**There are some entities that are not human, but rather humanoid. Goliath is just one example. They are the Rephaim, Anakim, Nephilim, and Emim. These entities - endowed with a spirit other than God's breath of life - are the demons that roam seeking a vessel when they die.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I think the term 'human responsibility' is more compatible with passages such as Ephesians 2, which speaks of unbelievers as 'dead in trespasses and sins' (and therefore they need to be born again).

 

[danny ski]

See G-d's conversation with Cain. We have free will and we have power over sin. That means we're responsible for it as well. No third party savior required.

 

[Supreme]

No. Using free will in the wrong way is sin, but there are so many good things we can choose to do with out free will that it isn't of itself a sin.

 

[Zoness]

CryOfALion your post is a lot to address, I'd like to come back to it at some point.

Just for the record to all: I don't believe in libertarian free will, I am a compatibilist.

Free will is not universal christian theology. In my country, free will is almost curse word for many christians (lutherians). They think free will was destroyed at apple eating moment and since then no person has had free will towards God.

In their theology humanity had free will and they used it and now its gone. And since then everyone is hellbound and only ones whom God gives extra mercy to choose him, will do so.

I'm aware of what Calvinists and Lutherans believe, though most Lutherans I know aren't as strict or as conservative as the Calvinists by a long shot. It would appear that you are right about the common belief in a lot of Protestant circles; the idea that we are all doomed and only super special people will make it into heaven.

I don't understand the question. If the sin nature controls us, we don't have free will.

So if we follow from your belief; then why am I paying for Adam's sins? I didn't eat from the tree of life, so why should I be held accountable for that by means of 'sin nature'?

See G-d's conversation with Cain. We have free will and we have power over sin. That means we're responsible for it as well. No third party savior required.

Makes sense to me!

No. Using free will in the wrong way is sin, but there are so many good things we can choose to do with out free will that it isn't of itself a sin.

But it provides the mean to sin and some Christians would argue that by having the ability to sin, we will always sin. Would it not follow that the mere fact that we make (not-entirely-programmed) decisions be cause for sin de facto?

 

[CryOfALion]

CryOfALion your post is a lot to address, I'd like to come back to it at some point.

Just to be clear on "everything happened," I literally mean that. Everything that is supposed to happen has already happened. Everything. Your decision to type the above post happened before you were born. It isn't a predestination; I want to be clear about what I mean. It is a paradox.

"Eternity" is now. Everything that exists has already existed before it existed. Philosophically, creation is like a painting, and the driving force behind the forging of events in a created object's life is like the paint drying.

The "painting" was already made before the first brush stroke. Hopefully I added clarity, and reduced any confusion or questions.

 

[Arthra]

Zoness wrote above:

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

Baha'is don't take the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve literally... but free will is not "the ultimate sin" ... We are accountable for our actions. Automatons have no choice or responsibility.

As to "eternal torment"...hellfire etc.... It is distance/remoteness from God and progress in the next world is possible with the mercy of God.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well, you've also got the Reformed/Calvinist tradition, where nobody has a choice and God has deliberately created the vast majority of sapient beings for no other purpose than to suffer for eternity - because nothing spells "Glory" like the sanity-shattering agony of uncounted billions who never had a chance and could have done nothing differently.


But let's stay on topic:

Even under the best of circumstances, the Christian idea of free will strikes me as a kind of Orwellian nightmare scenario.
Why?
Because the "best" way to use free will under the auspices of Christianity is NOT TO use it at all. The perfect believer (if he existed) would move in perfect accordance with GOD'S will, not his own - a puppet who has managed to reattach the cut strings.
Christians talk a lot about the importance of freedom - yet there is none. All paths but ONE lead to grave judgment and infinite agony, according to Christian orthodoxy.

As I said, quite Orwellian.

 

[CryOfALion]

Well, you've also got the Reformed/Calvinist tradition, where nobody has a choice and God has deliberately created the vast majority of sapient beings for no other purpose than to suffer for eternity - because nothing spells "Glory" like the sanity-shattering agony of uncounted billions who never had a chance and could have done nothing differently.

This is merely an illustration of the lengths untamed ecumenism can go in order to build a following. It is unfortunate the hell fire doctrine sticks - scaring people to worship instead of people choosing to.


But let's stay on topic:

Even under the best of circumstances, the Christian idea of free will strikes me as a kind of Orwellian nightmare scenario.
Why?
Because the "best" way to use free will under the auspices of Christianity is NOT TO use it at all. The perfect believer (if he existed) would move in perfect accordance with GOD'S will, not his own - a puppet who has managed to reattach the cut strings.
Christians talk a lot about the importance of freedom - yet there is none. All paths but ONE lead to grave judgment and infinite agony, according to Christian orthodoxy.

As I said, quite Orwellian.

If you want to follow another god you can. God won't stop you. If you believe this god, that god, or yourself can save you - by all means follow. If you think the Most High is, indeed the Most High, and you want to follow Him, then there are contractual stipulations. One of them is submission - willful submission. If that conflicts with the ego, or even superego, then you will have problems. If you feel compelled to worship the Most High because of fear, then you have missed the point.

Yes, holy created beings have free will - and use that freedom to follow the Most High. So, the net is a holy created being using its free will to follow God's will. But, it isn't Orwellian; it is paradoxical.

Truly, those holy ones that submit their will to the Most High do it because they want to, not out of burden or fear. They also have the option to opt out, and try their luck on their own - like many of them did. But, there are natural consequences to cutting yourself off from the Source of everything, and tumbling through creation without direction. This isn't punishment; it is consequence.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If you want to follow another god you can. God won't stop you.

"If you want to leave this death camp, you are perfectly free to go. I won't stop you. There are no fences. Only a mine field and snipers on the towers. But if you make it to that tree line over there, you might be free to go. If the dogs don't catch you first, that is."


I know that is not how you perceive this, looking from within your specific world view rather than examining it from without, but that is what it boils down to. Your post basically reinforces and confirms my point with other words:
"Freedom is slavery" - or shall we call it "submission"?

 

[CryOfALion]

"If you want to leave this death camp, you are perfectly free to go. I won't stop you. There are no fences. Only a mine field and snipers on the towers. But if you make it to that tree line over there, you might be free to go. If the dogs don't catch you first, that is."


I know that is not how you perceive this, looking from within your specific world view rather than examining it from without, but that is what it boils down to. Your post basically reinforces and confirms my point with other words:
"Freedom is slavery" - or shall we call it "submission"?

You have several choices - they may not be choices you like, but they are choices. And, quite honestly Jane, we do not know the exhaustive range of choices we have (since this world is duality, we tend to think know in terms of "either-or, neither-nor.")

I can understand how a couple of horrible choices can seem like no choice at all, but in reality people have survived under worse conditions than your hypothetical analogy. In terms of God, and worshiping Him, you have a choice to make. If you believe you can sustain yourself, save yourself or know more about taking care of your needs than a god, the you should be faithfully confident in following yourself. If you think this way about Cthulhu, then you should be faithfully confident in it. Whether angel, pony, tree, god, self, dirt, sex, pleasure, etc. - whatever you choose to follow is your choice. It is not a punishment if the god Hapi cannot keep his rivers from turning into blood against the power of the Most High - it is a consequence of his [lack of] power compared to the Most High. It isn't a punishment if the goddess Ged cannot keep her lice of the earth under control against the power of the Most High; it is a consequence. Does that mean you can't follow these gods? No. But, you have to read the "terms of agreement" when deciding what/who to revere and worship. All gods are created equal, but some gods are more equal than others...

Everyone submits to something - whether it is a god or self. Everyone submits to something. Freedom and slavery are illusions of the mind; this is why there is so much emphasis on one's heart and intention - one's intellectual consciousness. I am sure you are well aware of this paradox - that people who think they are so free are actually slaves, and those who think themselves as slaves are actually free.

Everything has happened already. Everything. I know this is the third time I have said this, but It is important in aligning one's self with principles and faith of one's choosing. Your choice you make right now has already been made by you before you existed. And yet, you have the freedom to make it. It is a paradox, not predestination. So, your choice to worship will be a willing choice, and not about different flavors of slavery. The Enemy in Christianity doesn't even force people to worship it. It simply presents an alternative to [other] God(s) that exploits one's vulnerability. But, the decision is still ours. Nothing is forcing you to worship anything at all; you have the freedom to give the Most High the finger if you want to. But, with all things come consequences. Consequences don't make a choice any less free.

I can see how what I am saying may sound like bull, and how it seems ridiculous the lot of Christianity, and the fundamentals of the faith. The Church has done an abysmal job of actually being the light of the world; instead, it is a burning flame attempting to light everything in its path with no regard for the well-being of what it touches. That is the fault of the Church. But, I can assure you God, though He would love to have all people worship Him freely and happily, knows that that won't happen, unfortunately. Still, He doesn't force anything on you, but the consequences may seem like a punishment, vis-a-vis the seemingly negative affects of freedom of choice. I understand that.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You have several choices - they may not be choices you like, but they are choices. And, quite honestly Jane, we do not know the exhaustive range of choices we have (since this world is duality, we tend to think know in terms of "either-or, neither-nor.")

Ah, but you see, it's not *I* who thinks in terms of such a duality. I'm merely talking about what Christianity has to say on the matter, and it's: "Who's not with me is against me" as well as "you're either with the sheep or with the goats, facing either eternal damnation or eternal bliss".

In order for a choice to be genuine, there'd have to be other options than just "bow down or suffer eternally". If we assume for the sake of the argument that your God does indeed exist, is in fact benevolent, and does love ALL of his children - even those who choose NOT to submit to his guidance - then what's stopping him from, say, creating a pocket dimension afterlife where those who are generally decent people but haven't accepted Christ go?

If Christian orthodoxy is correct, and Only Jesus Saves, then Hitler will share his eternal torment with all those of his Jewish victims who did not convert to Christianity. Anne Frank will suffer the same eternal fate as Joseph Goebbels. The Dalai Lama will receive the same "reward" as Dr. Mengele.

 

[danny ski]

Ah, but you see, it's not *I* who thinks in terms of such a duality. I'm merely talking about what Christianity has to say on the matter, and it's: "Who's not with me is against me" as well as "you're either with the sheep or with the goats, facing either eternal damnation or eternal bliss".

In order for a choice to be genuine, there'd have to be other options than just "bow down or suffer eternally". If we assume for the sake of the argument that your God does indeed exist, is in fact benevolent, and does love ALL of his children - even those who choose NOT to submit to his guidance - then what's stopping him from, say, creating a pocket dimension afterlife where those who are generally decent people but haven't accepted Christ go?

If Christian orthodoxy is correct, and Only Jesus Saves, then Hitler will share his eternal torment with all those of his Jewish victims who did not convert to Christianity. Anne Frank will suffer the same eternal fate as Joseph Goebbels. The Dalai Lama will receive the same "reward" as Dr. Mengele.

The Anne Frank argument is the good one. Easy to reject dogma such as this.

 

[prov1810]

Because the "best" way to use free will under the auspices of Christianity is NOT TO use it at all. The perfect believer (if he existed) would move in perfect accordance with GOD'S will, not his own - a puppet who has managed to reattach the cut strings.

The best way to use free will is to not do evil, and to not even intend evil against other persons. That is freedom. Evil isn't part of freedom. Evil is delusory and destructive.

 

[CryOfALion]

Ah, but you see, it's not *I* who thinks in terms of such a duality. I'm merely talking about what Christianity has to say on the matter, and it's: "Who's not with me is against me" as well as "you're either with the sheep or with the goats, facing either eternal damnation or eternal bliss".

In order for a choice to be genuine, there'd have to be other options than just "bow down or suffer eternally". If we assume for the sake of the argument that your God does indeed exist, is in fact benevolent, and does love ALL of his children - even those who choose NOT to submit to his guidance - then what's stopping him from, say, creating a pocket dimension afterlife where those who are generally decent people but haven't accepted Christ go?

You should ask Him (seriously, ask.) I will speculate: God does not do magic, and several times has explained that He allows things to happen naturally. Let's both assume everything God said about Himself is true. Then, He is also just. He has to recompense sin with justice - especially for all those who were hurt by sin. The Most High does not have a limp wrist; all of us - even believers will be judged. I think you realize this - that any god has a duty to "reward" their people based on certain criteria.

The issue seems to come from such a god allowing his people to burn, boil and suffer for eternity. Notice, I didn't capitalize "god" or "his," because I don't know who that God is. As I said, there are a lot of problems with doctrine passed around the Christian community. There is even more potential corruption. This is because of humans, and not the message. Generally, those who do not want to submit and follow the Most High will go to another dimension, just like those who do submit go to a heavenly dimension. The thing that makes hell unsatisfactory, and discipline is that 1) you will be aware of The Most High, and His love for you, 2) you will realize what you missed out on, and 3) you will not have His protection, being far removed from Him. It will be like living on this planet forever - with all of its corruption, insolence, ignorance, hauteur, murder, wickedness, etc. except you will be completely on your own. Anarchy in spirit. Pure chaos - not the interesting, fun kind. That is hell. The Most High made hell for the angels who disobeyed Him, knowing better. That is why Christ is such a big deal for the human-God relationship.

This hell will be the choice of all those who go there. Some people honestly do not want to be around Heaven. God allows that, though it is unfortunate. But, also keep in mind both death and hell will be destroyed according to the bible, and people will be judged based on their works if they do not participate in resurrection 1. If found unworthy, they will die in spirit the second death. Considering and comparing the percentage of one's life that is spent getting disciplined to a quantifiable "eternity" (like 10^100 years,) that small bit of discipline in your human life is comparable to yet many years. But, it is still comparable to an average person's cumulative discipline experienced in one's life. So, the "pain" doesn't come from eternal burning and boiling, it comes from the full intelligence of what you lost, and what you could have had.

If Christian orthodoxy is correct, and Only Jesus Saves, then Hitler will share his eternal torment with all those of his Jewish victims who did not convert to Christianity.

If the Book of life finds any of them unworthy of entering Heaven, they will be together in the netherrealm. There is no qualification for goodness in us humans to a holy God. Our best intentions, and our greatest kindness is filthy to Him - not because we disgust Him, but because we don't even comprehend what it takes to be good. It takes more than living a decent life of charity and loving kindness To Be "good." So, that moral barometer won't work when judging where the spirit goes.

Anne Frank will suffer the same eternal fate as Joseph Goebbels. The Dalai Lama will receive the same "reward" as Dr. Mengele.

IF they are deemed worthy based on what is in the book of life, they will enter heaven. Fortunately for me, I don't have nearly enough science on those people to make an informed decision on where their spirits should go like the omniscience of the Most High. I know these people are all seemingly "good people," but again, morality is for mortals; it is not for spiritually eternal entities. It is the set of standards meant for entities that die (hence the prefix.)

I understand it can be hard to swallow how this all plays out, especially when considering someone is "99.9% 'good,' save belief in Christ." I have had to reconcile the possibility of seeing some of my abusers in heaven should I Make It - it makes me upset. But then, I realize that I broke the Universal Law of the Most High God, and if He wanted to, He would be well within His own law to kill me right now, and send my spirit to the netherrealm. Instead, I can through His grace have forgiveness, and a change of heart working in me. This is something He wants with everyone.

I am reluctant to say anyone will "suffer" like the word connotes. Instead, I will say with certainty no soul will have rest in the netherrealm/hell.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Question in topic. This is a theme I've discovered when I re-read the Christian creation story. From a Christian perspective, it seems we were created with the ability to make choices and Adam and Eve made the wrong ones condemning humanity.

Often I am approached with "Well its your choice, you can believe in God and follow his rules or you can suffer for eternity". There is no equal weighting to these choices; if most decisions we make are evil by virtue of a "sin nature", then why even be allowed free will? Just so God can watch us fail? I do not understand this.

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

Free will seems to only have one effect, namely giving people the ability to choose to sin and hence suffer. It doesn't actually contribute anything good to the creation.

 

[rick357]

"If you want to leave this death camp, you are perfectly free to go. I won't stop you. There are no fences. Only a mine field and snipers on the towers. But if you make it to that tree line over there, you might be free to go. If the dogs don't catch you first, that is."

I know that is not how you perceive this, looking from within your specific world view rather than examining it from without, but that is what it boils down to. Your post basically reinforces and confirms my point with other words:
"Freedom is slavery" - or shall we call it "submission"?

This may be your understanding but its not in line with the reality of the situation...to use your scenario...you would have had to have been born in the camp...and had someone tell you they could help you escape if you wanted but you would need to follow an exact path to get past nmines ect.
As to free will their is a self life but it is incapable of generating a shared life with God. So to those who desire to share his life can hence free will.