Is forgiveness fair to the victim

[Dave-W]

It's my experience that in Christian communities, trauma is, on the whole, extremely poorly understood.

Unfortunately true.
Even those of us who survived it don't really understand it.

I know there is a lot more I could understand about it myself.

 

[Dave-W]

What goes a LOOOOONNNNGGGG way in achieving healing is knowing who and what you are in CHRIST.

From Joyce Myer:

Knowing Who I Am in Christ



From Derek Prince:

 

[Rajni]

Many have apparently been helped by Byron Katie's "The Work". It centers on 4 questions that help a person work through a thought/assumption/belief (from minor to major) that troubles them:

1. Is it true? (Yes or no. If no, move to 3.)
2. Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Yes or no.)
3. How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without the thought?

I had an experience once where I did an Ignatian-style meditation. It was truly an encounter with God... and it recovered some dissociated (repressed) memories of trauma. I would say after that encounter it took a good three years to get back to "functional" (as opposed to severely impaired by PTSD) and I am still, in some ways, recovering nine years on.

I think I've heard of that, but didn't realize it had the power to recover repressed memories. I wonder if I should give that a go, or just let the sleeping dogs of my psyche lie (assuming there are any; sometimes I wonder, given some ... things).

 

[Paidiske]

I didn't realise that either, chaela, until it happened to me. That's not what it's designed for, though, and I'd say that was more of a "side effect" than the main point, if that makes sense?

I wouldn't presume to advise you either way. What I would say is that part of what made the whole thing difficult for me is that when it happened, I didn't understand what was happening and neither did anyone around me. If you did want to try something like that, knowing that it might trigger something very difficult, I'd recommend doing it under the guidance of a very experienced spiritual director.

 

[Dave-W]

I wouldn't presume to advise you either way. What I would say is that part of what made the whole thing difficult for me is that when it happened, I didn't understand what was happening and neither did anyone around me. If you did want to try something like that, knowing that it might trigger something very difficult, I'd recommend doing it under the guidance of a very experienced spiritual director.

Good advice. Actually, when God says we are ready to heal, He will bring back stuff regardless of the medium. It can be in any kind of counseling, or in times of deep worship, or in scriptural meditation. Maybe just out of the blue when you are not even thinking about the Lord. It is in HIS wheel house.

Having experienced counselors/advisors around (they should be in EVERY congregation) is often necessary to navigate thru the disruptions.

 

[Zoii]

Some of you are speaking as if you weren't murderers, but we all are (James 2:10, 1 John 3:15). It is natural to hold onto the idea that "I haven't sinned as badly as that other person," but when it comes to God's grace for salvation, dying with even only a white lie on your account sends you to eternal punishment. When you think someone else doesn't deserve salvation or deserves more punishment than you, remember you don't deserve it either. Think about how worthy you are of salvation (zero. not at all). You have worked for and earned eternal punishment. As a matter of the heart, God's forgiveness is a package gift to mankind. Either it is for everybody or it is for nobody. Which would you prefer? If you choose to deny forgiveness to someone else, then you deny it for yourself, too.

... Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:12-15, 1984 NIV)

The idea that someone caused harm and is getting away with it is erroneous thinking. No one gets away with anything done in this life. God will call everyone to account for what they have done. That's all over Scripture (Matthew 12:36, Romans 3:19, Romans 14:12, ...), and it includes being unforgiving, btw. Look to your own inability to pay for your sin debt before you examine someone else's guilt.

Read Psalm 73 for Asaph identifying with the feeling that others are prospering because of their sins. Also see Psalm 37.

The truth about God, his justice, and mercy does not change based on what seems or feels right or wrong.

If a perpetrator dies, never having asked god or the victim for forgiveness, will god forgive him anyway. And if the answer is no god wouldn't forgive him, then why should the victim be committing some sort of offence against god, if God himself wouldn't forgive him either.

 

[Greg J.]

If a perpetrator dies, never having asked god or the victim for forgiveness, will god forgive him anyway. And if the answer is no god wouldn't forgive him, then why should the victim be committing some sort of offence against god, if God himself wouldn't forgive him either.

God created everyone to exist forever and each will exist forever. He is every person's judge for all eternity, and each of us is accountable to him for what he requires of us. In other words, he has the authority to judge his creations. No human can achieve that position over another. God made the point many times that he withheld (did not grant) the authority to judge another human (in this context). Rather he holds each of us accountable, and without favoritism.

 

[Zoii]

God created everyone to exist forever and each will exist forever. He is every person's judge for all eternity, and each of us is accountable to him for what he requires of us. In other words, he has the authority to judge his creations. No human can achieve that position over another. God made the point many times that he withheld (did not grant) the authority to judge another human (in this context). Rather he holds each of us accountable, and without favoritism.

That didnt answer my question - if the perp did not ask for gods forgiveness, would go give it anyway and forgive him.

 

[Greg J.]

That didnt answer my question - if the perp did not ask for gods forgiveness, would go give it anyway and forgive him.

If the perpetrator did not want God's forgiveness, the perpetrator has made it impossible to receive it.

 

[Zoii]

Well if God thinks its OK to not forgive then I'll go with that.

 

[Greg J.]

Well if God thinks its OK to not forgive then I'll go with that.

It's your choice. God will judge you for it, of course. But that should be OK with you since you state that you trust God's judgment.

 

[Zoii]

If the perpetrator did not want God's forgiveness, the perpetrator has made it impossible to receive it.

If God believes he shouldnt be forgiven because he hasnt asked for forgiveness Im certain he wouldnt expect it of me either

 

[Greg J.]

What God requires of the perpetrator is not the same as what he requires from you. The only way to know what God requires of you is to study what he said.

and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. (Matthew 6:12, NLT)

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14-15, 1984 NIV)

 

[Rajni]

If a perpetrator dies, never having asked god or the victim for forgiveness, will god forgive him anyway. And if the answer is no god wouldn't forgive him, then why should the victim be committing some sort of offence against god, if God himself wouldn't forgive him either.

That's between the perp and God. Forgiveness isn't just for the perpetrator. It's beneficial to the one doing the forgiving. We get what we give.

 

[Dave-W]

If a perpetrator dies, never having asked god or the victim for forgiveness, will god forgive him anyway.

no.

And if the answer is no god wouldn't forgive him, then why should the victim be committing some sort of offense against god, if God himself wouldn't forgive him either.

Because God wants His children to reflect HIS OWN image. That means we must forgive each other from the heart if we want His forgiveness in our own lives.

Holding on to unforgiveness has NOTHING to do with the perpetrator. But rather it makes us hard inside and unable to hear His own voice speaking to us.

Let me share a bit of a testimony from a woman who went thru some seriously bad hurts. I have her permission to share this. If she wants to come and fill in details she can do that. I will just call her H.

I first met her about 4 years ago. I led a home group at my congregation and she had just started coming. My wife Sharon and H and the wife of the host family got to be close friends. Little by little her story came out. She was raised Orthodox Jewish and came to faith in Messiah during grad school. (studying concert piano) Her parents hired deprogrammers who kidnapped her and tried to get her to recant her faith in Jesus. They were unsuccessful. She got married and then her husband dumped her. She was so hurt and broken she left the faith and went into some very worldly activities. Some 20 + years later she comes back to faith, and a guy she had met back in the day wants to marry her - he had been recently widowed. He used her and dumped her. Then he and his best friend (who happened to be the son of the senior pastor) really start doing a number on her. Sharon and I were very supportive of her and then they turned on us.

Eventually that all led to Sharon, H and myself all leaving the congregation. But we met with H weekly and I started her on a "rehab" to try and keep her from just going back into her worldly former life. After about a year we finally found a congregation and she started counseling with the pastor's wife there. Slowly she has been re-gaining her faith and stability but it has been slow with many set backs. However this past weekend she went on a Tres Dias (Three Day) retreat and just before going there she saw the movie "The Shack." Here are her words about it:

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo – I was hoping to get this email to you last week but failed to do so since I was working at incredibly “warp” speed since I left the office early on Thursday and was gone on Friday. ​

Prior to my going away, I saw “The Shack” with CT. It was a movie that I have to admit began my healing journey that I experienced this past weekend. It was somewhat of a Prelude to the beginning. G-d does not make mistakes and I began my journey of healing by going and seeing this movie. .... Yes – there is a whole lot wrong with it in terms of theology. But I’m speaking of a balm of healing like no other.

There is a scene in this movie that reminded me of a time I sat in your kitchen. David – you were sitting across the table and Sharon – you were sitting on my left at the head of the table (“feeding” me Kleenex). Everything that I said that particular evening in your kitchen was scripted for the main character in this movie!!! While in your home, I found myself yelling at the both of you that: I WANTED THEM TO HURT LIKE I HURT. I WANTED S. AND B. TO BE IN THE SAME EXACT PAIN THAT I WAS IN. AND……………….I WANTED TO KNOW…………IF I’M PART OF THE CHOSEN, WHERE was G-d? and…………..if I wanted to repent and come back to the Father, WHY WOULD HE DO THIS TO ME?​

She has found release from that anger and pain. We have not personally sat down with her yet, but she sent that in an email yesterday.

I hope it gives you some encouragement that hanging on to hurt and resentment only serves to keep you locked up. You forgiving and moving on is NOT about the perpetrator. It is about you being healed in God's presence.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

If Jesus could forgive a group of people who beat, tortured, and crucified him, I should be able to forgive people who've done wrong to me.

 

[Rajni]

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

If Jesus could forgive a group of people who beat, tortured, and crucified him, I should be able to forgive people who've done wrong to me.

Agreed. I mean, initially I would probably be furious and want to retaliate as per human nature, but in the long run, I love the idea that even the worst offender will be transformed.

 

[historyprincess710]

Jesus was not forgiving those who put him on the cross (the Pharisees), because they knew who Jesus was, and they hated him. That's the unpardonable sin, knowingly attributing the work of God to the devil.

Jesus was forgiving those who didn't know who he was, for example, the Roman soldier who believed he was the Son of God after he died.

 

[Dave-W]

Jesus was not forgiving those who put him on the cross (the Pharisees), because they knew who Jesus was, and they hated him.

Actually the Pharisees were not the instigators of that conspiracy - it was the Sadducees under the High Priest Caiaphas.

And His "forgive them" included those Sadducees as well.

 

[HisPrincess710]

Actually the Pharisees were not the instigators of that conspiracy - it was the Sadducees under the High Priest Caiaphas.

And His "forgive them" included those Sadducees as well.

Where in the bible does it say that? Why then did he call them "sons of Hell" and all sorts of other things? Because that's what they were. They KNEW who Jesus was and hated him. Those like the Roman soldier who REPENTED did not know who he really was.