Is flirting permissible when married?

[FireDragon76]

First of all......................define 'flirting.' And when I mean define it, I don't mean popping open the dictionary and laying out the typical, present definition of the word. No, I mean, we need to collectively identify what is the core moral/immoral dynamic or principle that most of us thinks is active in the act of "flirtation."

I say this, because as sure as I'm sitting here typing this, there's someone out there who will take it upon himself to judge any one of the rest of us when we speak with various other people, even those who may be of the opposite sex, and we are then deemed to be flirting (i.e. sinning). And I just have to say that this kind of attitude of judgment upon me tends to ruffle my feathers. Why can't I enjoy interacting with another person because he/she has some attractive personality trait(s), whether those other persons are male or female, and do this even while I'm married? Ay? [NOTE: This is an axiological question, and one that I think needs to be much more analyzed than it actually is in our Western culture, for both good and bad).

And like they say, just because you are married doesn't mean you are blind.

I hate the attitude that going through life negging everything just because you have responsibilities or duties, is a positive, pious thing. William Blake wrote something to this effect in his poem, "In the Garden of Love", where "thou shalt not" was seemingly all religion had to say:

I went to the Garden of Love,
And saw what I never had seen:
A Chapel was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And Thou shalt not. writ over the door;
So I turn'd to the Garden of Love,
That so many sweet flowers bore.

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tomb-stones where flowers should be:
And Priests in black gowns, were walking their rounds,
And binding with briars, my joys & desires.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And like they say, just because you are married doesn't mean you are blind.

I hate the attitude that going through life negging everything just because you have responsibilities or duties, is a positive, pious thing. William Blake wrote something to this effect in his poem, "In the Garden of Love", where "thou shalt not" was seemingly all religion had to say:

That's a great point, FD76! And just an additional point to add to what you've already said, I'm thinking that if we guys (especially us Christian guys) could learn to create a culture where we can keep ourselves sober and free of illicit affairs with the ladies, even if just a sub-culture within the overall culture, then we'd find that in our male oriented, social ineptitude(s) we'd have many more mothers and sisters from whom we can learn from and profit in the area of wisdom and happiness as we work through our own situations with the person that we end up marrying.

I know. This is too ideal, but I'm taking a cue from Jesus and applying a nuance from that place where He said, "He who leaves father and mother...and...and...and....will not fail to gain the more." I'm thinking that women have a lot to offer and we guys have been ignoring them [and their insights for living] for quite a long time.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just think sometimes the whole "Pence Rule" thing is ridiculous, the sort of immature attitude we don't need in real, authentic Christians.

Years ago I had to attend church alone (an Episcopal cathedral at the time) for a while but I struck up a friendship with an older woman. We even sat together in the pew and at the coffee hour after church. She was a genuinely attractive person. If I had been overly scrupulous about sexual propriety/ethics, I never would have had the experience of spiritual friendship that enriched my life (she even gave me a book, telling me that she believed I needed to read it- it was a Brennan Manning book, The Ragamuffin Gospel).

 

[RDKirk]

That's a great point, FD76! And just an additional point to add to what you've already said, I'm thinking that if we guys (especially us Christian guys) could learn to create a culture where we can keep ourselves sober and free of illicit affairs with the ladies, even if just a sub-culture within the overall culture, then we'd find that in our male oriented, social ineptitude(s) we'd have many more mothers and sisters from whom we can learn from and profit in the area of wisdom and happiness as we work through our own situations with the person that we end up marrying.

I know. This is too ideal, but I'm taking a cue from Jesus and applying a nuance from that place where He said, "He who leaves father and mother...and...and...and....will not fail to gain the more." I'm thinking that women have a lot to offer and we guys have been ignoring them [and their insights for living] for quite a long time.

How does not flirting with a woman equal ignoring her?

 

[RDKirk]

I just think sometimes the whole "Pence Rule" thing is ridiculous, the sort of immature attitude we don't need in real, authentic Christians.

How does not flirting with a woman equal not having lunch in the lunchroom with her?

Is a flirtatious relationship the only kind or relationship you think a man can have with a woman?

 

[Sabertooth]

I just think sometimes the whole "Pence Rule" thing is ridiculous, the sort of immature attitude we don't need in real, authentic Christians.

I still think it has its place, especially if womanizing is a man's particular weakness. Politicians are even more vulnerable to accusations, even if completely innocent.

I have had such a strong attraction to some women that I would definitely apply it in those situations. And I made it a point to always have (at least) my daughter present, if I did anything with her friends.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How does not flirting with a woman equal ignoring her?

It doesn't. But my point above has to do with two nuances: 1) Men need to learn to control themselves, because, yes, it is mainly, although not only, the men who are causing the most problems in society, and 2) women have been suppressed and have been funneled by men into social ruts that make them simple auxiliaries to what men want in the world.

So, if these things weren't happening, then no one would be worried, or jealous, or envious that some one dude, over there, is talking to someone that isn't his wife or that isn't her husband.

Of course, I do realize we live in a Fallen World and that we have to be careful of "every appearance of evil," etc., etc. But, I don't think that I personally should walk on eggshells to avoid appearances just because many other people can't keep their 'acts' together and are suspicious of everyone else.

 

[Dave-W]

I just think sometimes the whole "Pence Rule" thing is ridiculous, the sort of immature attitude we don't need in real, authentic Christians

It is NOT the “Pence Rule.” It is the Billy Graham rule. He started it circa 1960 for a very good reason.

 

[RDKirk]

It is NOT the “Pence Rule.” It is the Billy Graham rule. He started it circa 1960 for a very good reason.

Pence's rule is different.

Billy Graham's rule was "don't even have dinner with a woman when you're out on the road."

I've been on enough military temporary duty that put me on the other side of the planet from my wife for months at a time to understand Billy's wisdom. I'v'e learned that temptation becomes strong when you fall into a situation where a particular sin is cheap enough and easy enough to do it and get away with it...and that is the case when you're out on the road far, far from home.

Billy was a superstar, and there were undoubtedly "good church women" who were flirting and more with him wherever he went (and, yes, I've been close enough to the ministry to see that happen). So Billy's rule made sense.

Pence's rule is "don't even have lunch with a woman any time, any place, ever."

 

[RDKirk]

It doesn't. But my point above has to do with two nuances: 1) Men need to learn to control themselves, because, yes, it is mainly, although not only, the men who are causing the most problems in society, and 2) women have been suppressed and have been funneled by men into social ruts that make them simple auxiliaries to what men want in the world.

So, if these things weren't happening, then no one would be worried, or jealous, or envious that some one dude, over there, is talking to someone that isn't his wife or that isn't her husband.

No, you're talking past the point.

When I was in the military, I had male and female troops working for me. I had male and female military peers.

I could trade witty banter with any of them, male or female, and none of it was ever flirtatious. Any witty banter I had with a female subordinate or peer could have been said just as easily to a male subordinate or peer.

At work in a civilian job today, it's exactly the same. It's not necessary for me ever to insert flirtatiousness into my relationship with women other than my wife.

But you're trying to make it sound like there is something wrong with that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, you're talking past the point.

When I was in the military, I had male and female troops working for me. I had male and female military peers.

I could trade witty banter with any of them, male or female, and none of it was ever flirtatious. Any witty banter I had with a female subordinate or peer could have been said just as easily to a male subordinate or peer.

At work in a civilian job today, it's exactly the same. It's not necessary for me ever to insert flirtatiousness into my relationship with women other than my wife.

But you're trying to make it sound like there is something wrong with that.

Maybe I didn't articulate myself as well as I should have. I'm actually agreeing WITH you on this. I don't think talking to another woman while I'm married even equates to flirtation.

 

[Dave-W]

Billy Graham's rule was "don't even have dinner with a woman when you're out on the road."

Graham’s rule was never be alone with a woman other than a relative, period.

He came up with that after an incident in New York hotel where he was alone in an elevator and a young woman got on, stripped naked and when it opened in the lobby she screamed RAPE!

 

[Sabertooth]

Graham’s rule was never be alone with a woman other than a relative, period.

I see the wisdom of that, generally, but my counselor is a woman (with no such interactions). She is the only one in the area willing to take on a 2E patient.

 

[RDKirk]

Graham’s rule was never be alone with a woman other than a relative, period.

He came up with that after an incident in New York hotel where he was alone in an elevator and a young woman got on, stripped naked and when it opened in the lobby she screamed RAPE!

Well, that's not what I read.

 

[SgtBen]

My question is this: Why even consider flirting with another when married? Who thinks of it? And why should we,as married men, even think of it?

As a law enforcement officer, I have had many women try to flirt with me, offer certain favors, even partially disrobe to get out of a traffic violation or worse when stopped.

The last person I ever flirted with was my wife when we were dating, and she told me to knock off the bull and that life was too short to deal with junk like that.

My answer is this: Absolutely not.

Don't even think about flirting unless you truly wish to end up single again.

 

[Newtheran]

It seems to be kind of a natural thing for me, I'm not sure if its something I could just turn off just like that when it's my natural way of communicating with women. I also don't think its a sin or anything. Is flirting permissible when married?

@PeachieKeen yes I just meant flirting in the first way you stated.

I could simply give you the book answer - "No" - but like most things in marriage, the best way to approach things is to walk a mile in your wife's shoes. Would flirting with another man be permissible for her? No? Go and do ye likewise.

 

[EmmaCat]

I have seen Ben's answer, and as I am his wife, I agree. I have often been flirted with, and I find it disgusting, offensive, and belittling.

You men can see my wedding ring. Don't even try. When you do, you make fools of yourselves and are just asking for a very nasty retort from me.

All good things
Emmy

 

[Tropical Wilds]

This is such a loaded question because so much of flirting depends on somebody else.

For example, my whole life I’ve been labeled a flirt. I talk to anybody and anyone about absolutely anything. I’m friendly, outgoing, speak charismatically, talk equally to men and women. My mental motto of late has been to be such a force of positivity and joy that it lifts the flow of positive energy in the room. I want to be dynamic. My job wants to be ultra dynamic. On top of that, most of my interests are thought of as “male” interests (video games, Star Wars, football, even Home Depot and home projects), so I find it easy to engage in thoughtful, in-depth discussion with guys without it being fake or awkward. Because my career has been extremely alpha male-dominated, all my friends for the longest time were men which gave me an “advantage” in a way... I was forced to be comfortable with everybody regardless of who they are.

And I have to say, I cannot tell you how many times I have been told I was flirting or had somebody interpret my time with them as flirting. Dozens of times. Dozens and dozens. I’m easily and often quickly labeled a flirt.

That said, the number of times during those dozens of accusations I was *actually* flirting? For real, maybe seven times. And like four of those times were with my now-husband, long after I knew he liked me and it wasn’t my comfort zone to flirt even then... The other three times were when I was trying to impress guys and/or signal my interest times and it was a train wreck. It went so badly I never did it again except when I was dating my husband... And he’s my second husband, so you have to know, there was a looooooooooong gap between my attempts to flirt. And to cap it all off, my husband will be the first to tell you, I stink at flirting. I cannot intentionally flirt to save my life. I do not intentionally flirt, ever. Never ever.

So, for me, should you intentionally signal your interest in a person or your availability to somebody after you’re married (ie, intentionally flirt)? No, probably not. It’s going to irk your partner for fairly obvious reasons.

However, is it wrong to conduct yourself in a way through normal interactions and friendliness which could be interpreted as (but not meant to be) flirting? No, I don’t think so. As one of those people, I literally get that you have zero control over that “flirtyness” because that’s just your operating baseline. I honestly and genuinely don’t know how to change that about myself. I really don’t. Especially since some people view almost nothing as a flirt. Like “Oh, look at your X-Wing shirt! You like Star Wars? Me too, I’m a big fan! What did you think of Solo, because I thought it was fine but I couldn’t get around somebody not Harrison Ford playing Han...” was enough for me to send an accidental signal to somebody yesterday.

I will say when I pick up signals that somebody thinks I’m flirting and may be flirting back, I’ll mention my husband or my thousand kids or otherwise make clear I’m not available. Those who have similar experiences as what I do are wise to do the same.

So does my husband get upset by my “flirty” behavior? No. He knows that’s how I am, and Vice versa. Would he be upset by my *flirty* behavior? Um, yes. Extremely.

 

[EmmaCat]

I can't even understand any reason to flirt. Just be a normal person, speak to people nicely on a good level, and go on.

The last person who flirted with me was told exactly where to go and how to get there.

All good things
Emmy