Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[JacksBratt]

It doesn't matter WHY I asked if we're to obey God.
The fact is we just are...
We obey God because He's GOD and He demands it.
I agree with all you've said above.
We're all striving -- no one is perfect in this life.
So does that give us the right to proclaim that it's not important to obey God?

Does obedience require perfection?
Of course not. Obey means to do as someone asks.
If we fail, we have the solution in 1 John 1 and 2.
We all fall short,,,but we're still on the road toward God...and on THAT road we do need to obey Him.
We obeyed our parents...shouldn't we obey God?
Just because we'll fail at it every now and then does not mean we give up. (as I know you haven't).

I think the question was open ended.. maybe a bit vague...

I would have had a better understanding if you had of asked:


"Are we required to obey God to be saved"?

or., for some out there:

"Are we required to obey God to stay saved"?


Even:

"When we become saved, will we always obey God"?

It is important to try to obey God all the time. We cannot do this though...

So, telling someone that they will have to obey all the time, never sin or that they can lose their salvation... that could be scary to some and a down right turn off for others...

Then there is the "am I doing enough"?... "am I good enough"? " should I do more"?... "am I still saved"?

This is not what God wants. Nor what the bible teaches.

 

[bcbsr]

Most of those seven churches are chastised for transgressions that Christ literally told them would account for the loss of their salvation unless they would "overcome/repent".

No one can use the excuse that these people were never saved to begin with. It's undeniable.

Well excuse me, because it also says, "Everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4 How could that be if overcoming was based upon one's indeterminate free will? It's because of the nature of regeneration. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Thus those who don't overcome have not been born of God. And how does one become born of God? "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1John 5:1 Simple as that. Consequently those who don't overcome haven't really believed. Churches? If I were allowed I could point out whole sects of Christianity that have yet to believe.

 

[Acts2:38]

Well excuse me, because it also says, "Everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4 How could that be if overcoming was based upon one's indeterminate free will? It's because of the nature of regeneration. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Thus those who don't overcome have not been born of God. And how does one become born of God? "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1John 5:1 Simple as that. Consequently those who don't overcome haven't really believed. Churches? If I were allowed I could point out whole sects of Christianity that have yet to believe.

Nope, not excused =)

I placed for you scripture. It explicitly states such.

Now you are trying to pit scripture against scripture?

The problem also arises that people throw out context, grammar, and reading comprehension to support false ideas.

Where and how do you get that ANYONE in Revelation 2 and 3 are not christians?

You might want to check out Revelation 1 again, specifically verses 9 to the close of the chapter.

Is John "brother and companion" with unsaved people or saved people (the seven churches that he is writing to among ALL THOSE WHO ARE SERVANTS

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Your excuse that these are not saved individuals is very far fetched. These are people who are saved, but are being chastised for transgressions. That if they CONTINUE the transgression, they will have loss of salvation.

Sorry, you cannot pit scripture against scripture.

 

[zoidar]

And how about this many?

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

To be saved according to your sect of Christians must a person do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law? Or can a person be justified by faith rather than by doing everything written in the Book of the Law?

I don't want to make you upset or anything, only saying that - 57's point is the wrong conclusion.

I'm fine with you believing we are saved by faith ALONE. I myself believe we are saved by TRUE faith, which means we have a living relationship with Christ. If we live in disobedience, then what kind of relationship do we really have? Can then our faith save us? What do you think?

 

[bcbsr]

Nope, not excused =)
Now you are trying to pit scripture against scripture?

I'm interpreting scripture in light of scripture. Apparently you don't and find something wrong with such a concept. What's your excuse?

 

[bcbsr]

If we live in disobedience, then what kind of relationship do we really have? Can then our faith save us? What do you think?

I think the scriptures are clear on that point. Given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." we can conclusively say that those who continue in sin have not been born of God. In fact that's what the very next verse says, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10 While many bring up a strawman scenario of "what if those born of God continue to sin", the fact is it simply doesn't occur. The reason why it never occurs is because of the nature of regeneration. And such a principle is so reliable that John advocates using it as a way to distinguish children of God from children of the devil.

 

[Acts2:38]

I'm interpreting scripture in light of scripture. Apparently you don't and find something wrong with such a concept. What's your excuse?

Great deflection of Revelation 1 that clearly shows you saved people in the kingdom (John states) giving warning to the seven churches, which are saved persons, brother and companion with John.

So, I take it there are no more excuses and so now you shut this conversation down with a short and simple jab to my intelligence.

How cute.

 

[bcbsr]

Great deflection of Revelation 1 that clearly shows you saved people in the kingdom (John states) giving warning to the seven churches, which are saved persons, brother and companion with John.

So, I take it there are no more excuses and so now you shut this conversation down with a short and simple jab to my intelligence.

How cute.

Thanks for sharing your assumption.

 

[Acts2:38]

Thanks for sharing your assumption.

Well, its not really an assumption when you have not explained where and how you find that the people in Revelation 2 and 3 are not saved. You are factually, no assumptions here, not going to explain it.

The only assumption is that I figure you have no more excuses about the topic since you refuse to explain.

Take care kind friend. Glad we could go over this. Even if I couldn't convince you with scripture, someone out there will see this and come to an important conclusion =)

 

[fhansen]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Fairly simple:

"Brothers and sisters:
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh;
on the contrary, you are in the spirit,
if only the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
But if Christ is in you,
although the body is dead because of sin,
the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
the one who raised Christ from the dead
will give life to your mortal bodies also,
through his Spirit that dwells in you.
Consequently, brothers and sisters,
we are not debtors to the flesh,
to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die,
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live." Rom 8

Faith has always been intended to produce real righteousness in man, the right way, the new Covenant way, by the work of God rather than by man's efforts, meaning to be under grace, obeying by the Spirit, rather than under the Law, by the letter. Justice realized the right way in man, finally, as the time became ripe. This happens as man turns back to God in faith, and remains in Him. Otherwise he turns back to sin-he can't help it to the extent that he's apart from God. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

I am really not that familiar with the term "second salvation". However, sanctification is a life-long process of holiness. Works are involved, however, the "work" is done by and through the Holy Spirit. I would suggest that if someone claims to have been justified by their faith yet lack any evidence of any spiritual fruits produced by the process of sanctification, questions ought to be raised.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I believe the answer to the OP can be easily found in Galatians 5.
Galatians 5:1-12 explains that as Christians, we are free from the Law.
Freedom in Christ
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!"

Galatians 5:13-26 explains that just because we are free from the Law, it doesn't mean we can do whatever we want.
Life by the Spirit

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[setst777]

So what you're saying is that a person's salvation status is indeterminate in the present, rather it's dependent upon his ongoing performance.

Hi bcbsr,

You write:
<<
So what you're saying is that a person's salvation status is indeterminate in the present, rather it's dependent upon his ongoing performance.
>>

setst RE: The Scriptures speak for themselves that I quoted from Hebrews. And there are many others all through the Bible.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (WEB)
26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 16 Pay attention to yourself, and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Revelation 2:10 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

We are saved by faith. John 3:16-18

We are admonished to remain faithful to the end to be eternally saved.

Faith is expressed in walking by the Spirit we receive by faith into a life of love, doing good to all.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

A genuine Gospel faith cannot be divorced from repentance from the old life of sin, and then listening and following Jesus to receive eternal life. That is what faith is.

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB)
20 …I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Therefore, the Gospel that saves us teaches a faith by which we are to be disciples of Jesus to be saved.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

A disciple is a follower of Jesus...

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

Luke 14:27-35
27 Whoever does not bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Salvation is conditioned upon a repentant faith in Jesus and remaining faithful to the end – according to the Gospel.

Revelation 3:3 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.

This repentance is YOUR responsibility…

Revelation 3:19-22 (WEB)
19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

YOU are responsible to:
• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness, and results in Eternal Life: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

You write:
<<
As for Hebrews how does the author know whether he's dealing with people who have already come to saving faith or whether some of them simply are on the road to salvation but haven't arrived yet? Notice in 1Thess 1:4 Paul says confidently "we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" and Paul goes on to say how he knows they're among the chosen.
>>

setst RE: We can know, and have full assurance, of our salvation by remaining faithful to the end, just as Scripture states. Paul can write confidently to those who remain faithful, but that does not negate your responsibility to remain faithful.

You write:
<<
1John 2:19 does, "if they had been of us they would have remained with us".
>>

setst RE:
The subject of 1 John 2:1823 are antichrists.

John even identifies the traits of antichrists so there is no confusion who he is referring to. Granted, some are still confused about this simple teaching on antichrists, but the teaching is clear. According to John, an antichrist is one who denies both the Father and the Son.

Islam is a good example of this – they deny Jesus is the Son of God. And they deny that God is a Father to anyone. And to believe this is an unforgivable sin in Islam. That is why Islam is antichrist.

You write
<<
Heb 4:10 "for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." tells us to rest from working for our salvation, as is also written in Romans 4:5 "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."Salvation by works Christians fail to enter into his rest.
>>

setst RE: Hebrews 4:10 and Romans 4:5 are addressing different topics. Hebrews 4:10 is teaching that, when we enter God’s Rest – the heavenly promised land – then we are no longer working.

Revelation 14:13 (NASB)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

“Romans 4:5” is teaching that we do not gain salvation by the works of the Law, but by faith. And faith is defined in Scripture as including repentance, and then faithfully following Christ to receive eternal life. Think of how Christ Jesus expressed His faith in God the Father. Did Christ just sit there, or did He demonstrate His faith by complete obedience to fulfilling all that the Father required of Him. We are to follow Him.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

We are working now, but we are not working to follow the OT law to be saved; but rather, at this present time we are now living out our faith as followers of Christ – to deny self, and then to walk by His Spirit and following His commands to reach others for Christ and to love others as He loves us. This is the faith by which God sanctifies us and makes us holy and fit for salvation.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Romans 12:1 (NIV) Bolding mine… 1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God — this is your true and proper worship.

The Spirit of Christ living in those who believe will not believe for us.

The Spirit will not do His work in us God's work unless we faithfully walk in the Spirit.

The Scriptures were given.

 

[Kaon]

The thing is does the Most High God declared that one must obey the Law to be saved?

Notice the dichotomy of Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

So that's the word of the Most High God. But in Gal 3:10-13 he also says, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (Deut 27:26) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." (Hab 2:4) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Not only so but he goes on in Romans 10 to say, But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Rom 10:6,9,10

This dichotomy also shows up in Romans 3:20-24 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So basically the Most High God presents a way to be righteous in his sight by compliance to the Law, but then goes on to say that no one meets that standard and therefore he introduces a different way to become right with God with is apart from law, apart from issues of performance, apart from one's compliance to commands. That way is by simply believing God.

As you may notice from this thread, something of which I was already aware of, namely that many on these forums don't properly distinguish these two. They'll claim that "believing" in Christ means obeying some kind of law. But "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Gal 2:21 As I see it such people haven't really embrace the meaning of the above passages. Perhaps by talking about this essential issue some may come to saving faith.

Obedience and faith are two sides of the same coin of salvation. Obedience is nothing if you don't have faith in the Redeemer and His Sacrifice as justification, and faith is nothing if you don't trust the Most High God when He says 1) obedience pleases Him, and 2) He will reward those who keep His commandments, execute them, and remember them. Anyone who fails to be 100% perfect has the grace to repent, and go back to obedience.

This is part of the magnificence of the Redeemer. He didn't remove the Law, or make it any less required for entities that want to be sons of the Most High God. He took the sting from DEATH - so that where we would surely die because of our transgressions, His Sacrifice allows us to repent and move on as if we formally perfected.

No where does the Word of God, or the Most High God make any part of the Law inert, or inoperable. We still have to follow all commandments of the Most High God (but, not man.)

 

[Halbhh]

I think the scriptures are clear on that point. Given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." we can conclusively say that those who continue in sin have not been born of God. In fact that's what the very next verse says, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10 While many bring up a strawman scenario of "what if those born of God continue to sin", the fact is it simply doesn't occur. The reason why it never occurs is because of the nature of regeneration. And such a principle is so reliable that John advocates using it as a way to distinguish children of God from children of the devil.

What about Peter then?

Galatians chapter 2. Refusing to embrace, eat with, the uncircumcised for a time....

Then, later, he's clearly repented.

It's like 1rst John chapters 1-2. If we do sin, we have an advocate.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Luke chapter 15 -- those once belonging, then lost, then restored.

We are not able to say who may stop sinning and then --

Luke 15:32 But it was fitting to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"

1. Alive,
2. Then dead,
3. then alive again.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So, there is different types of salvation? Different for people who become Christian and live a day or two... People who become a Christian and live to be 90 years old.... People who become a Christian knowing that they are seconds from death?

Is this what you are saying?

Remember what I said about common sense? Aside from that, not going to dignify that with a response.

The OSAS people also got their salvation from Jesus. We also cannot do anything to earn our salvation, or buy it.

What we do... that's just evidence of being already saved.

Who said you need to earn salvation, don't you know we can't do that? Is that what you call being obedient to God?

How bout the Goats in the Sheep/Goats parable, why did Jesus send them to Hell? Was it for being disobedient or because they didn't earn their salvation as you call it?

Your point is understood... but void...

When it comes to "doing" things that may earn your salvation.. there is nothing we can do.. We are spiritual quadriplegics who cannot do anything "of ourselves" to save our souls.

Wrong.

When it comes to being obedient, we can absolutely do that, there is no magic wand that forces it, it's up to us, our own doing because we love God just that much. Here ya go, read the following and tell me, first, if we don't do good will we get to heaven? And secondly, what exactly do you think "do" means? Does it mean we need take no action to get to heaven? Or that we are responsible for taking an action/being obedient in order to get to heaven? And please answer a simple yes or no to each and then add what you like so i can be clear on your answer.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Maybe this is why an atheist is an atheist.. they think that salvation is a wage or payment for services rendured...

Or maybe they know what the bible has read for a long time and still realize exactly what the bible says and means on the natter of getting to heaven. Be good overall, go to heaven, be bad and don't, an age old concept and the right concept at that. I'd guess most Atheists are more aware of how to get to heaven than OSASr's.

In 100% actuality... salvation is 100% gift. You don't earn it... work for it.... pay for it... or get it as a compensation for anything a human is capable of doing..

Works are proof of salvation... not a method of achievement.

Faith and works/faith without works is dead. I'm sure you are aware of the scripture that entails that...I'd be very interested in what you think it means? i mean how do you get around clear scripture?

In 100% actuality... salvation is 100% gift. You don't earn it... work for it.... pay for it... or get it as a compensation for anything a human is capable of doing..

Works are proof of salvation... not a method of achievement.

Works are obedience and are actual faith, that's one place where you all ere badly. You speak of faith as if it's no more than saying it, when works are absolutely necessary to show we have faith. Works are a "must" to show faith, not just something we can do if we want to, and if not, no big deal, we go to heaven anyway.

The thief on the cross did three things:

1/Admitted that he deserved his penalty
2/ Proclaimed that Christ was innocent
3/ Asked Christ to remember him

That's what we do... and are just as saved....

I think he accepted Christ as his savior, and went to heaven, just that simple. Also to use that as means to say we don't have to worry about works because some poor guy dying on the cross was of course pardoned that chore because it was impossible for him to do, just like anyone in their right mind might do for him, is using the bible wrongly for their own agenda, and that is exactly what you are claiming. Honestly, I'd be scared to death to do that with the bible.

Works based salvation only makes any service self centered. You would be doing it for self gain.. not God's glory.

Then obedience to God is wrong? Or doing as God says is no longer good, but a bad thing???

And lastly, let me throw the following scripture in and if you would, please tell me, can someone in a saved state as you are with so called faith only, get to heaven if they do the things warned about in the scripture as a life style?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

 

[Shimokita]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[zoidar]

I think the scriptures are clear on that point. Given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." we can conclusively say that those who continue in sin have not been born of God. In fact that's what the very next verse says, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10 While many bring up a strawman scenario of "what if those born of God continue to sin", the fact is it simply doesn't occur. The reason why it never occurs is because of the nature of regeneration. And such a principle is so reliable that John advocates using it as a way to distinguish children of God from children of the devil.

What does continue to sin mean to you? Is it the same as living in disobedience?

 

[Kaon]

The thing is does the Most High God declared that one must obey the Law to be saved?

Notice the dichotomy of Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

So that's the word of the Most High God. But in Gal 3:10-13 he also says, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (Deut 27:26) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." (Hab 2:4) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Not only so but he goes on in Romans 10 to say, But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Rom 10:6,9,10

This dichotomy also shows up in Romans 3:20-24 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So basically the Most High God presents a way to be righteous in his sight by compliance to the Law, but then goes on to say that no one meets that standard and therefore he introduces a different way to become right with God with is apart from law, apart from issues of performance, apart from one's compliance to commands. That way is by simply believing God.

As you may notice from this thread, something of which I was already aware of, namely that many on these forums don't properly distinguish these two. They'll claim that "believing" in Christ means obeying some kind of law. But "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Gal 2:21 As I see it such people haven't really embrace the meaning of the above passages. Perhaps by talking about this essential issue some may come to saving faith.

Name one place where the Most High God, not Paul, Peter or any other man aside from the Word of God, said that anyone who wants to be His child can disobey any of His commandments He has laid out. Or, name one place where the Most High God Or the Word of God Himself stipulates any part of the Law previously declared by the Most High God to be inert or non-operable for anyone who wants to be His child.

Notice what I am asking, because it is important in distinguishing what will please the Most High God. There is only one Human who has the authority to change, add to or amend the Law of the Most High God - the Redeemer. Anything that contradicts the Word of God Himself is wrong at best.

 

[def]

Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Care to explain?