Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[BNR32FAN]

Warning unveiling Jews who were part of the old covenant.

I can go along with that. Paul being a Jew often referred to fellow Jews as brethren.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This says He goes and gets the sheep who go astray. Like a good Shepherd. So what’s your point?

I thought the part I highlighted in bold letters spoke for themselves. “If He finds the lost sheep” what does that mean? Does Jesus not know where these lost sheep are or are they just unwilling to come along?

 

[TheSeabass]

Do you understand that this is about those who are trying to be saved by works of the flesh?

Strawman.
Works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) are not the same as obedience to the will of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There because you have a warped view of the gospel and of grace.

You mean the same view the church has taught since the very beginning of Christianity? The same view that is backed by centuries of the earliest church writings? Or did every Christian church have it all wrong for the first 1500 years of its existence? Did the apostles fail to successfully do the job Jesus hand picked them to do and then all the sudden 1500 years later Martin Luther came along to set everyone straight? Or perhaps Jesus’ plan to spread the gospel was thwarted by evil and corrupted His message for the first 1500 years of Christianity. None of these ideas make any sense my friend. Conditional salvation has been taught by the church since day one and everyday since then.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You keep calling God a liar when you doubt what’s said by God and adding works to grace.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

Faith onlyists seem to be stuck on the idea that if a man obeys God, then that man is trying to earn God's free gift of grace. But it is GOD who requires man to obey, therefore God has made obedience a condition upon receiving His free gift of grace.

Jesus obeyed The Father, perhaps He was trying to earn salvation as well.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If there's a condition attached then it's not a free gift.

It is a free gift because works cannot atone for sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I actually meant to quote Romans 4:13 but none the less, why would Abraham's faith not be reckoned as righteous in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8? What proof do you have the Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate prior to Genesis 15:6?

Abraham had already shown evidence of his faith by leaving his home and going to Haran at God’s command in Genesis 12. God promises him the promised land, Abraham believed and acted on faith.

 

[Hammster]

Faith onlyists seem to be stuck on the idea that if a man obeys God, then that man is trying to earn God's free gift of grace.

That’s actually your view. Our view is that obedience is out of love.

But it is GOD who requires man to obey, therefore God has made obedience a condition upon receiving His free gift of grace.

See?

 

[Hammster]

1) Genesis 15:6 does not say 'belief only. Adding 'only' to the verse is changing the Bible.

2) From James 2:24 we know belief only does not justify.

It doesn’t need to say “only”.

 

[Hammster]

I actually meant to quote Romans 4:13 but none the less, why would Abraham's faith not be reckoned as righteous in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8? What proof do you have the Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate prior to Genesis 15:6?

He was unrighteous before Genesis 15:6. The proof is Genesis 15:6.

 

[Hammster]

Yes I do. I’ve never said anyone is saved by works. I simply said works and obedience to God are required to receive salvation. That’s not the same as seeking justification by works and obedience.

So what’s the difference, to you, between receiving salvation and being justified?

 

[Hammster]

I thought the part I highlighted in bold letters spoke for themselves. “If He finds the lost sheep” what does that mean? Does Jesus not know where these lost sheep are or are they just unwilling to come along?

It means they wandered. Like we are prone to do. That’s why we need a shepherd.

 

[Hammster]

Strawman.
Works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) are not the same as obedience to the will of God.

It’s not a straw man. Paul goes back and forth between the two.

 

[Hammster]

You mean the same view the church has taught since the very beginning of Christianity? The same view that is backed by centuries of the earliest church writings? Or did every Christian church have it all wrong for the first 1500 years of its existence? Did the apostles fail to successfully do the job Jesus hand picked them to do and then all the sudden 1500 years later Martin Luther came along to set everyone straight? Or perhaps Jesus’ plan to spread the gospel was thwarted by evil and corrupted His message for the first 1500 years of Christianity. None of these ideas make any sense my friend. Conditional salvation has been taught by the church since day one and everyday since then.

That’s not true. Paul, Peter, John, etc. never taught that.

 

[Hammster]

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

That has nothing to do with Galatians 3, Romans 4 or Genesis 15.

 

[bcbsr]

1) Genesis 15:6 does not say 'belief only. Adding 'only' to the verse is changing the Bible.

2) From James 2:24 we know belief only does not justify.

Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

So Paul's point was that Abraham was justified by faith apart from doing anything else. The promise was given, the next moment he believe God, and that belief was right then what justified him. What do you think "it" refers to? Abraham's belief in God was credited to him as righteousness.

 

[bcbsr]

That is simply not the case.

The saving of Noah's house was a free gift of grace, but GOD required Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark to receive that free gift of grace.

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed ."

Jesus plainly said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He GIVES.

Christ GIVES everlasting life so it is free yet there is a condition, a work, Christ placed upon receiving that free gift and that is the work of believing.

And if you were to read 2 verses after that Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

 

[Shimokita]

If there's a condition attached then it's not a free gift.

No. This is not true. If you give your child an iPad for Christmas but forbid him to use the iPad to watch inappropriate contentography, the iPad is still a gift.

Is putting one's faith and trust in our Lord Jesus no longer a condition for salvation? I suppose salvation is no longer a free gift either, by your incorrect logic.

 

[Hammster]

No. This is not true. If you give your child an iPad for Christmas but forbid him to use the iPad to watch inappropriate contentography, the iPad is still a gift.

Is putting one's faith and trust in our Lord Jesus no longer a condition for salvation? I suppose salvation is no longer a free gift either, by your incorrect logic.

Faith is part of the gift.