Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[BNR32FAN]

So what’s the difference, to you, between receiving salvation and being justified?

Being justified is being forgiven of our sins and therefore we are made right with God. We have been declared righteous by Him. Actually receiving salvation happens when we go to be with Him. Until we actually go to be with Him we only have the hope of salvation, we have not yet received it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It means they wandered. Like we are prone to do. That’s why we need a shepherd.

If I say to you you can borrow my car IF I can get it fixed does that mean your guaranteed to borrow my car? The same applies to those who will rejoice in heaven IF one of His lost sheep are found. It doesn’t guarantee that they will be found otherwise the word IF would not be present. The word IF implies a condition that must be met in order for the effect to take place.

 

[TheSeabass]

It’s not a straw man. Paul goes back and forth between the two.

Works of the flesh are not the same as obedience to God's will just as works of righteousness are not the same as works of unrighteousness, works of God are not the same as works of Satan.

All works are not the same and no verse eliminates all works from salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Being justified is being forgiven of our sins and therefore we are made right with God. We have been declared righteous by Him. Actually receiving salvation happens when we go to be with Him. Until we actually go to be with Him we only have the hope of salvation, we have not yet received it.

Then why, if we have been made right with God, do we need “works and obedience” to go be with Him?

 

[Hammster]

If I say to you you can borrow my car IF I can get it fixed does that mean your guaranteed to borrow my car? The same applies to those who will rejoice in heaven IF one of His lost sheep are found. It doesn’t guarantee that they will be found otherwise the word IF would not be present. The word IF implies a condition that must be met in order for the effect to take place.

That’s really sad. You actually believe that the Good Shepherd cannot find one of His sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Works of the flesh are not the same as obedience to God's will just as works of righteousness are not the same as works of unrighteousness, works of God are not the same as works of Satan.

All works are not the same and no verse eliminates all works from salvation.

There’s no verse that says any works contribute to justification. Works are required if we are to please God. Works are required to spread the gospel. But none of those works affect our standing with God.

 

[TheSeabass]

And if you were to read 2 verses after that Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

John 6:27 Jesus plainly told His listeners to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting.
Jesus has for all times settled the issue that work is necessary to have everlasting life.

After telling His listeners to work, they ask Christ:

v28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
They asked what work THEY should do, not what work God would do for them.

v29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

After they asked Jesus what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God, Jesus gave them a work to do...believe. Note Christ did NOT answer their question in v28 as a 'faith only' preacher would in telling them "works do not save, you have no work to do". Instead Jesus did give them a work to do in believing.

"This is the work of God" means God is the source, the genesis of the work that God has given man to do much like an employer is the source, genesis of the work he gives the employees to do. 1 Corinthians 16:10 both Timothy and Paul " worketh the work of the Lord" meaning they did the work that came from the Lord that the Lord gave them to do.

Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Paul is showing in the context that Abraham (nor David) "worketh not" that is, he was NOT justified by the work of flawless law keeping as the OT law of Moses required. But were justified by an obedient faith, Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:17. In the context, a "worker" would be an obedient man trying to work to keep the law perfectly. Yet Abraham was ungodly, he sinned, he was a 'non-worker' in keeping the law perfectly but instead was one who obediently believed.

Romans 6:17-18 one obeys from the heart, then one is freed from sin/justified.

 

[Shimokita]

Faith is part of the gift.

And so are obedience and works, my friend.

 

[Hammster]

Instead Jesus did give them a work to do in believing.

Um...so the work needed for salvation is faith?

I can live with that.

 

[Hammster]

And so are obedience and works, my friend.

Exactly.

 

[TheSeabass]

There’s no verse that says any works contribute to justification. Works are required if we are to please God. Works are required to spread the gospel. But none of those works affect our standing with God.

Romans 6:16-18 is one.
Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Any and all verses that require a man to believe, repent, confess, be baptized are examples that has the order of obedience BEFORE salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 6:16-18 is one.
Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Any and all verses that require a man to believe and repent, are examples that has the order of obedience BEFORE salvation.

Faith justifies? Okay.

 

[TheSeabass]

Um...so the work needed for salvation is faith?

I can live with that.

Yes, faith is a work, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Mark 2:1-5. Since the work of faith is a necessary condition that GOD Himself has required in order to receive His free gift of salvation, it does not earn/merit the free gift.

 

[TheSeabass]

Faith justifies? Okay.

Faith justifies, Romans 5:1

Faith only does not justify, James 2:24 for faith only is dead and cannot justify, cannot do anything being dead

 

[Hammster]

Yes, faith is a work, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Mark 2:1-5. Since the work of faith is a necessary condition that GOD Himself has required in order to receive His free gift of salvation, it does not earn/merit the free gift.

Except that He says it does. Do I really need to post the passages again?

 

[Hammster]

Faith justifies, Romans 5:1

Faith only does not justify, James 2:24 for faith only is dead and cannot justify, cannot do anything being dead

You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Shimokita]

There’s no verse that says any works contribute to justification.

It is incredulous that you can look at a verse that states: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" and conclude that "There’s no verse that says any works contribute to justification."

Then a minute later you turn around and look at a verse that states "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" and conclude that this teaches that the personal righteousness of our Lord is imputed to a believer, when the verse literally states nothing about our Lord's personal righteousness being imputed to a believer.

You will respond with "You have to understand the context" to twist out your theology from it, but it's rather clear that you are imposing your preconceived theology on the text, instead of taking the text at face value.

 

[Shimokita]

Exactly.

And that is why works contribute to justification (just as Sacred Scripture states) without negating God's grace. God rewards our good works, but the good works that God rewards are the very gifts that he gives us.

What St. Paul takes issue with, on the other hand, is the notion that a Christian can approach God as though God owes the Christian a debt for work performed, as if an employee put in a good day's work, and now God his employer is obligated to pay him.

 

[Hammster]

It is incredulous that you can look at a verse that states: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" and conclude that "There’s no verse that says any works contribute to justification."

Then a minute later you turn around and look at a verse that states "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" and conclude that this teaches that the personal righteousness of our Lord is imputed to a believer, when the verse literally states nothing about our Lord's personal righteousness being imputed to a believer.

You will respond with "You have to understand the context" to twist out your theology from it, but it's rather clear that you are imposing your preconceived theology on the text, instead of taking the text at face value.

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
— 2 Corinthians 5:21

Where is our righteousness? In our works or in His work?

Let’s look at James.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
— James 2:14

Notice what it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say

What use is it, my brethren, if someone has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

That difference is the distinction.

 

[TheSeabass]

Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

So Paul's point was that Abraham was justified by faith apart from doing anything else. The promise was given, the next moment he believe God, and that belief was right then what justified him. What do you think "it" refers to? Abraham's belief in God was credited to him as righteousness.

In Romans 3, Paul just showed that even though the Jews had an advantage in being given their own law, it did not justify then for that OT law of Moses required the work of strict perfect flawless law keeping to be justified yet the Jews sinned and did not keep it perfectly. Paul shows at the end of Rom 3 it is not deeds of the OT law that justify but faith.

Into Romans 4:

Romans 4:1 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?"

What did Abraham get from his own works in the flesh, by his own efforts? Did he justify himself by his own works? NO! Did Abraham keep the law sinlessly perfectly NO!

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

"Works" here refer to perfect flawless works required by the OT law and not to obedience to the Lord's will for Abraham DID in fact have an obedient faith Hebrews 11:8,17. Paul in Romans 3 and 4 is CONTRASTING flawless works required by the law FROM obedience to God's will.

If Abraham were justifed by works, he hath where of to glory, that is, if Abraham kept the law perfectly that would be something he could boast about. Abraham could baost in himself and his perfect works and not boast in God.

Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Instead of working to keep the law perfectly whereby he could boast, Abraham instead believed God. Paul here is referring to Genesis 15:6 because that verse contains the words Paul needs to make his point in Abraham beleiving and being reckoned righteous. Yet Abraham was already in a saved covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6, already had an obedient faith (Gen 12) that was righteous before God.

Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

"Worketh" refers to flawless law keeping here, if Abraham worked and kept the law perfectly, flawlessly then his reward would be something owed him, not of grace. Grace is needed by those who sin. But Abraham was not perfectly sinless but he did have an obedient faith. So again, Paul is CONTRASTING flawless works required by the OT law FORM an obedient faith.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Abraham was one who worketh not did not work and keep the OT law perfectly, did not justify himself by his own flesh per verse 1 but instead had an obedient faith by which he was justified by God. In v4 here Paul continues to CONTRAST flawless works required by the OT law FROM an obedient faith.

In the context, the "worker" is an obedient man trying to be justified by flawless, perfect law keeping. The "non-woker" therefore is a sinner, unrighteous disobedient man not keeping God's law. Abraham was a beleiver, he did not work to keep the law perfect but did obey God's will and repented when he failed, offered sacrifices for his sins.