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Is evolution necessary?

MSBS

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Oh come now, we have to be realistic here. Certain aspects of medicine have been advance considerably by using the theoretical underpinnings of evolution-- animal testing and modeling provide a far better understanding of medical issues when the predictive ability of evolutionary theory is used when selecting the animal models for testing (as discussed previously). But to say without evolutionary theory we have no modern medicine is ridiculous.

Evolution is in important part of modern biology, but it was the renaissance and a naturalistic world view codified in the scientific method that has made medicine what it is today, not evolution. Such greats as Andreas Vesalius, William Harvey, James Lind, and Edward Jenner all did wonders before any useful theory of evolution was elucidated.

As for the question asked in the IP, “what good is evolution?”, I’ll put it this way-- modern experimental molecular biology relies on it heavily. For example, in my thesis project I am working on a genetic expression mechanism in a species of pathogenic bacteria. Through a process of targeted mutagenesis coupled with the introduction of antibiotic resistance genes and then using selection mechanisms (in this case antibiotics in the growth media) I am able to evolve the bacteria in a specific way, and then check out how this evolution has impacted the bacteria’s ability to cause disease by using tissue culture models. Every aspect of this experiment involves using techniques that were discovered while looking at evolutionary mechanisms in bacteria. Is an understanding of evolutionary biology necessary for this type of work? Absolutely. Should a college student be expected to understand evolution as an undergrad? Yes, without that understanding many aspects of biology do not tie together, so without it a student would have an incomplete understanding of the subject.

The question is, however, does a sixteen year old need to be exposed to evolution in a high school class in order to understand biology? You can get by without it (I did, it was never taught in my HS), but ultimately the less that is taught in HS the more you will need to makeup while in college. American education is already dismal enough without further watering it down. Many of the better universities no longer offer remedial instruction (at least out here on the west coast), and are suggesting to students that have deficiencies that they make them up elsewhere before trying to compete at a four year university. So ultimately, when you strip an important part of biology out of HS instruction, you are being unfair to those students that wish to continue their education.
 
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secularfuture

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Evolution theory has helped scientists create medicines to help fight against A.I.D.S., and other life threatening diseases. By definition, evolution only means "to change". Both microevolution and macroevolution are proven facts now.

What is evolution?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

About Microevolution
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html

29 Evidences for Macroevolution
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Before anymore blind assumptions are made about evolution, you might want to consider doing some research into the concept and vocabulary.

PS - I'm in LOVE with this forum! Very neat and organized! A lot of interesting people. I think I'm going to love it here!
 
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MSBS

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Kookaburra, what do you mean Microbiology in its remotest form? I'm finishing up a masters degree in cellular and molecular biology with a project emphysising bacterial genetics. What do you want to be enlightened about?
 
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secularfuture

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Originally posted by Kookaburra
applications as in...what sort of jobs would be available for a creationist/microbiologist in the big wide Out There?

Your version of creation isn't the only version of creation. Science, like math, is a universal language. Creation is not universal. Each version of creation varies. Science accuracy, and consistency, is more important than anything, and you can not have consistency through creation science. Too many different beliefs.
 
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MSBS

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Well Kookaburra, that all depends. I'm not exactly what you would call a creationist, but I'll try to answer your question as best I can.

With a degree in microbiology you should be able to do just about anything any non-creationist microbiologist can do. Most companies/universities/governmental agencies don't care about your theistic views so long as you can get the job done. Work in biotech, do drug research, brew beer, work in public health, there are all kinds of options. You could always teach at a religious affiliated university-- I expect that many of them would jump at the chance to have well trained biologist on their faculty.

As for research, there are plenty of things to do that have nothing to do with evolution or creationism. There is very little being done in the way of creationist research and I expect it would be difficult to find a university with a good biology department that would fund a research project with an ID/creationism thesis. It would probably be rather difficult to find an advisor that would let you do one or a committee that would pass one. Not from an outright bias against such things, it’s just that you would run into some real difficulty trying to prove supernatural intervention in any clear and unambiguous manner, which is what a graduate project would demand. You could possibly try some sort of cross disciplinary approach with your major work being in philosophy or theology using some biology as a basis for the work, but I would be at a loss to tell you how to go about that.

I seem to remember a paper that I scanned a while back that sought to organize some groups of animals into biblical “kinds” based on genetic sequence similarities, with the goal of excluding other animals as being too dissimilar genetically to have had a common ancestor (the discontinuity between the two groups being too large to be accounted for at any level by common ancestry). So I guess there is a bit of research going on aimed at creation types of hypotheses, if you looked long and hard you might be able to locate something. I think a better way to do it if you are dead set on doing microbiology with a creation aspect would be to go to a good university with a good microbiology program, continue on to graduate school, establish yourself as a researcher on projects without any significance one way or the other as it comes to your theistic beliefs, and when you have a nice CV in place, begin doing research specifically aim at creationist ideas. If you are a real go getter, you out to be able to do that by the time you are in your thirties. ;)

 

edited for errors in grammer, spelling, and just a bit of discontinuity of thought
 
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Chris H

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Originally posted by Kookaburra
applications as in...what sort of jobs would be available for a creationist/microbiologist in the big wide Out There?

You won't be able to be a microbiologist, or a molocular biologist, or an astronomer, or a geologist, or a paleontologist, or an evolutionary biologist, or a zoologist, or study cosmology or relativity and maintain strict creationism. Too many different branches of science contradict the notion of a 6000 year old earth and the recent special creation of plant and animal species.

You might try reading the Origin of Species by Darwin himself also.

Not really sure what is abailable at the 8th/9th grade level in Austrailia in your local library/bookstore but you surely can find something to read about evolution so you can start understanding it.

Chris :clap:
 
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secularfuture

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Very well said Chris H.

Another thing, as I said earlier in this thread:

His version of creation isn't the only version of creation. Science, like math, is a universal language. Creation is not universal. Each version of creation varies. Science accuracy, and consistency, is more important than anything, and you can not have consistency through creation science. Too many different beliefs.
 
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Humanista

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Quote:
The question is, however, does a sixteen year old need to be exposed to evolution in a high school class in order to understand biology? You can get by without it (I did, it was never taught in my HS), but ultimately the less that is taught in HS the more you will need to makeup while in college. American education is already dismal enough without further watering it down. Many of the better universities no longer offer remedial instruction (at least out here on the west coast), and are suggesting to students that have deficiencies that they make them up elsewhere before trying to compete at a four year university. So ultimately, when you strip an important part of biology out of HS instruction, you are being unfair to those students that wish to continue their education.
___________________________________________________________

In a broader sense, avoiding evolution in schools below the college level contributes to the general dumbing-down of the American public.
Democracy depends on having an informed public who can make decisions regarding their future and government policies. Increasingly, the public is asked to make decisions about things like stem-cell research, DNA testing, disease control....not in just the election of public officials but on juries.
How can they be expected to make an informed choice if their understanding of these issues are based on folk lore, rumor and religious writings from a pre-scientific age? The anti-scientific movement will be America shooting itself in the foot if we are not careful.
 
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What's happened in education in America is that teachers are teaching what the average person on the street thinks. This is compounded by the fact that teachers are now made up of average people from the street, who are payed enough to care. This is further compounded by the fact that school boards often don't understand the subjects they have to make curriculum for. Politics is ruining education.

One of the scarest things I have heard is that education majors were second only to buisness majors in saying that they don't need to take classes outside their major.

I think the australian system has some benefits in it. Like how colleges and universities get to set K-12 education requirements.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Originally posted by Chris H
I don't think American kids are stupid. We've just tolerated an anti-intellectual teen subculture for far too long.

Actually, based on my own highschool experience, that was only sorta true. By about grade 11/12, there were two distinct "groups" of individuals (probably created from the fact there were two Advanced and General levels of the same courses). The Advanced level students were the ones heading off to universities, and the General level, community colleges and trades, I guess.

Just to note, that my later high school years seemed devoid of any "anti-intellectual" culture. Or for that matter, a high and mighty "intellectual" subculture. People were just generally lauded for being intelligent in the classroom, and that was about it.
 
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secularfuture

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ocean,
"Why do you think little kids in the US are 'stupid'?"


Because they are. Look up the world statistics when you get the chance. U.S. kids are some of the dumbest in the world.

Intelligence is considered "nerdy". Stupidity is considered "cool" and/or "fun".

I'm leaving this sinking beast (The U.S.) within the year to live in France. The art, people, food, eduction, science, etc - all better on the East Side.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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I remember the difficulty my high school biology teacher had in phrasing the answer to a question that concerned evolution. She wanted to present the current scientific consensus but feared having to later deal with infuriated parents mad about her teaching evolution.
 
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