Is evolution a fact or theory?

[Job 33:6]

Im still waiting on this alleged research or information about these elusive mesozoic flamingos...

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Some random guy on youtube doesnt suffice as evidence. I work with these fossils directly. You cant just tell me what we as scientists do or do not have in our collections. I need more than just some random quote from a guy on youtube.

This fellow seems to believe there was a diversity of modern birds in the Late Cretaceous:

Does his opinion count?

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

This fellow seems to believe there was a diversity of modern birds in the Late Cretaceous:

Does his opinion count?

Dan

This is still a long shot from saying that there were flamingos in the cretaceous. It is widely known that the origins of birds are found in the cretaceous. But this is not the same as saying that anyone found a bunch of flamingos next to a t-rex.

 

[Job 33:6]

In here are a list of prehistoric flamingos.

Flamingo - Wikipedia

Notice how their fossils have only been found in layers that are considered 25 million years old and less.

The cretaceous is 65+ million years, with the mesozoic going back to 250.

but again, regardless of age, the localities are different. Flamingos are not found in the cretaceous as you are claiming.

 

[Job 33:6]

@NobleMouse

When we say "mesozoic", its more than just a word that defines age. It is a word that defines locality. Space. It is a word that defines a specific superpositional location of rock. Like in the grand canyon, specific layers are mesozoic and have dinosaurs in them. Other layers are cenozoic (mammoths, saber tooth tigers, giant sloths etc.), some paleozoic (tetrapods, early mammals, mammal like reptiles etc.). And each of these has many sub sections. Triassic, jurassic, devonian, silurian, pleistocene, oligocene etc.

So, when someone says that flamingos are found next to dinosaurs...dinosaurs are only found in mesozoic rock, which therefore means that the flamingos are in mesozoic localities in specific layers. His claim is more of a claim of spatial location, than it is a claim about temporal location. Time is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

But, we can still use the word mesozoic to define, spatially, what we are talking about. And spatially, flamingos are not found with dinosaurs.

Early birds are found with dinosaurs, as he mentioned above. In fact, as most of us are already aware of, birds are considered descendents of dinosaurs, so obviously some birds would be found along side dinosaurs. But thats not to say that modern day birds are found in mesozoic rock, nor is it to say that flamingos are in the mesozoic either.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is still a long shot from saying that there were flamingos in the cretaceous. It is widely known that the origins of birds are found in the cretaceous. But this is not the same as saying that anyone found a bunch of flamingos next to a t-rex.

Early Paleocene landbird supports rapid phylogenetic and morphological diversification of crown birds after the K–Pg mass extinction

Here is a link with info from the same Thomas stidham identified in the YouTube video. Nothing out of the ordinary about his research on Cretaceous birds.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

This is still a long shot from saying that there were flamingos in the cretaceous. It is widely known that the origins of birds are found in the cretaceous. But this is not the same as saying that anyone found a bunch of flamingos next to a t-rex.

Dr, Werner said flamingo fossils were found in the same rock layers as the T-Rex and Triceratops:

“Museums do not show you these modern bird fossils nor do they put modern birds fleshed out with feathers in their dinosaur dioramas. This is wrong. Essentially, every time you see a T. rex or a Triceratops in a museum display, you should also see ducks, loons, flamingos or some of these other modern birds that have been found in the same rock layers as these dinosaurs, but this is not the case. I have never seen a duck with a dinosaur at a natural history museum, have you? An owl? A parrot?”​

This may come as a shock to you, but Dr. Werner has far more credibility than the evolutionism orthodoxy, who have bombarded us and our children with fraudulent/misrepresented drawings and models for over a century, such as Haeckel's Embryos, Peppered Moths, Whale Evolution, and more.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

All I see are empty words. Where is the research?

 

[Bible Research Tools]

In here are a list of prehistoric flamingos.

Flamingo - Wikipedia

Notice how their fossils have only been found in layers that are considered 25 million years old and less.

The cretaceous is 65+ million years, with the mesozoic going back to 250.

but again, regardless of age, the localities are different. Flamingos are not found in the cretaceous as you are claiming.

Perhaps you do not know as much as you think you know. Dr. Werner visited and filmed at 60 museums and 10 dinosaur dig sites in 7 countries. Who would be the greater authority on flamingo fossils in the dinosaur layers: you or him?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Early Paleocene landbird supports rapid phylogenetic and morphological diversification of crown birds after the K–Pg mass extinction

Here is a link with info from the same Thomas stidham identified in the YouTube video. Nothing out of the ordinary about his research on Cretaceous birds.

So, are modern bird and animal fossils found with the dinosaurs, or not; and, if so, why do the museums not prominently display them along with the dinosaurs?

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

Perhaps you do not know as much as you think you know. Dr. Werner visited and filmed at 60 museums and 10 dinosaur dig sites in 7 countries. Who would be the greater authority on flamingo fossils in the dinosaur layers: you or him?

Dan

Ill still go with myself. Im unaware of any publications this person has in paleontology.

But again, you are more than welcome to show me his finds. I have never seen nor known any scientist who has uncovered living day animals in the mesozoic.

I ask again, where is the research?

I have also looked myself at countless formations and at countless fossils. I havent seen anything out of the ordinary...

 

[Job 33:6]

So, are modern bird and animal fossils found with the dinosaurs, or not; and, if so, why do the museums not prominently display them along with the dinosaurs?

Dan

Theres a difference between saying "modern groups" are found in X locality, and saying "modern species" are found in X locality, such as flamingos.

Birds, of course are found in the mesozoic. They descended from dinosaurs, so there is no question that some ancient forms of bird would be found toward the middle to late sections of the mesozoic with theropod dinosaurs. Archaeopteryx being a perfect example.

However, modern birds, modern species of birds, such as flamingos, are not found in the cretaceous. Flamingos havent been observed in the fossil succession until much more recent times, <25 mya. And even these early flamingos are different still than the flamingos that exist today.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Ill still go with myself. Im unaware of any publications this person has in paleontology.

You are aware that it is difficult to get a paper published that contradicts the evolution orthodoxy, are you not?

But again, you are more than welcome to show me his finds. I have never seen nor known any scientist who has uncovered living day animals in the mesozoic.

I thought the T-Rex lived in the so-called cretaceous?

I ask again, where is the research?

I have also looked myself at countless formations and at countless fossils. I havent seen anything out of the ordinary...

Some of the research Werner cited included a 1998 Nature paper where Sidham said that several researchers documented modern bird families in the Cretaceous layers.

In any case, the following link provides a critique of Dr. Werner's claims, including some of his secular sources:

Modern Birds in the Cretaceous?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Birds, of course are found in the mesozoic. They descended from dinosaurs

And you know that how?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Birds, of course are found in the mesozoic. They descended from dinosaurs . . . Archaeopteryx being a perfect example.

There is no way to prove the Archaeopteryx descended from a dinosaur. Anyone who claims it is anything other than a perching bird is resorting to highly-imaginative speculation.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

You are aware that it is difficult to get a paper published that contradicts the evolution orthodoxy, are you not?



I thought the T-Rex lived in the so-called cretaceous?



Some of the research Werner cited included a 1998 Nature paper where Sidham said that several researchers documented modern bird families in the Cretaceous layers.

In any case, the following link provides a critique of Dr. Werner's claims, including some of his secular sources:

Modern Birds in the Cretaceous?

Dan

The article you listed is talking about, as it describes, orders of birds. It isnt talking about the presence of modern day species.

For example, there is mention of Polarornis

Polarornis - Wikipedia

"Polarornis gregorii" is not a modern day living species.

Of course ancestral birds exist. As do ancestors of all living things.

Neogaeornis

Neogaeornis - Wikipedia

:
It is controversial because of its uncertain placement. While clearly related to modern birds, N. wetzeli might not be a particularly close relative, but rather belong to the Baptornithidae, a member of the flightless and toothed Hesperornithes. If this is so, Neogaeornis is among the very youngest records of this lineage, and the first one from the Southern Hemisphere. However, the Hesperornithiformes are known to have been birds of the open epicontinental and shelf seas which avoided the outer oceans as surrounded South America at that time. And though apparently somewhat migratory, they are only known from temperate to warm subtropical climates, and it seems that towards the end of the Cretaceous their range shifted polewards.[2]

Others consider it a close relative of certain modern birds, such as the Gaviiformes (loons/divers). Both theories are problematic, as neither group is known from the Southern Hemisphere. The even more controversial supposed loon ancestor Polarornis from Seymour Island, Antarctica presents a similar dilemma and Neogaeornis and there is little consensus about the age of Polarornis, and so all that can be said is that Polarornis and Neogaeornis were similarly-sized birds with similar lifestyles.[2][3]

N. wetzeli may also be the ancestor to the grebes or Podicipediformes.[4]

Most recent phylogenetic studies seem to favour its position as a basal loon.[5] Alongside Polarornis and some yet unnamed Antarctic specimens, it seems to suggest a Gondwanan origin for this group. In 2017 a phylogenetic study Agnolín and colleagues have found Neogaeornis to be stem-anseriforms along with Polarornis, Australornis and Vegavis in the family Vegaviidae.[6]:


Again, there is nothing abnormal about this. This is all certainly a long shot from modern day birds being alive in the cretaceous.

Dare I ask the question of why the fossil lineage of birds only goes back to the mid to late mesozoic? Surely young earthers realize the fossil record goes back with complex life, some 600 million years. Yet here is where birds appear in layers that we consider to be around 200 million. Thats 66% of the fossil succession that is devoid of any types of birds, even primitive ones. And really the full succession goes back over a billion years. So really birds are only present in a somewhat remote fraction of the fossil succession.For us its easy. They came from dinosaurs. But what do young earthers have to say as to why birds are not found before dinosaurs? why arent they in the carboniferous for example, or silurian, devonian, ordovician, permian etc.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

The article you listed is talking about, as it describes, orders of birds. It isnt talking about the presence of modern day species. . . .

Again, there is nothing abnormal about this. This is all certainly a long shot from modern day birds being alive in the cretaceous.

How do you interpret this statement:

"Not all the birds that lived during the Mesozoic, the Age of Large Dinosaurs, may have looked as unfamiliar as Archaeopteryx, Confuciusornis, and Hesperornis. The early representatives of today's lineages of birds can also be traced back to this remote era of our geological past. In several continents, rocks from the last part of the Cretaceous period have started to provide the remains of early shore-birds, ducks, and other more familiar birds."​

Don't forget that Werner, with his production crew, visually inspected the fossils which he named.

Dare I ask the question of why the fossil lineage of birds only goes back to the mid to late mesozoic?

Birds can fly, so they were able to escape the ravages of the early tidal surges; but they were eventually killed in the same years that all the other animals were killed. Lumbering Dinosaurs perished early on.

Surely young earthers realize the fossil record goes back with complex life, some 600 million years.

Not a chance. The entire fossil record above the pre-cambrian, with accompanying sediment, was deposited in less than a year.

Yet here is where birds appear in layers that we consider to be around 200 million. Thats 66% of the fossil succession that is devoid of any types of birds, even primitive ones. And really the full succession goes back over a billion years. So really birds are only present in a somewhat remote fraction of the fossil succession.

Like I said, birds can fly.

For us its easy. They came from dinosaurs.

That is pure speculation. There is no evidence of macroevolution. None!

But what do young earthers have to say as to why birds are not found before dinosaurs? why arent they in the carboniferous for example, or silurian, devonian, ordovician, permian etc.

Birds can fly.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

The article you listed is talking about, as it describes, orders of birds. It isnt talking about the presence of modern day species.

This is the list of the "living fossils" Dr. Werner found:

Living Fossils List from Carl Werner

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

If flight saved the birds, why did so many birds perish, simultaneously with the dinosaurs? Why is it that flightless birds like ostriches survived, while many birds of flight, such as the ones we just discussed...died?

I suspect young earthers must blindly pick and choose what animals were on the ark, and which ones by pure chance just happened to live and die.

Why would birds come right after theropod dinosaurs with feathers? Well just a coincidence as well I suppose.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, it seems that no evidence has been provided for the presence of flamingos in the mesozoic. As expected. I'll just let that point sit.