Is evolution a fact or theory?

[Job 33:6]

There is little doubt that the field of evolutionism, including supportive propaganda displays, such as those in museums and textbooks, is riddled with fraud and deception. Are you denying that?

Dan

You have indirectly accused me of hiding flamingo fossils from the general public. I am telling you that, such information is not true.

This has nothing to do with anything else but your accusations, and my response.

Now will you actually respond to me? Or are you just going to change the subject?

Perhaps i should just re-post my response so you can actually respond to it.

 

[Job 33:6]

There are hundreds of species of dinosaurs (that we are aware of) with many more being discovered every day. T-rex, brontosaurs, ankylosaurs, brachiosaurs, all sorts of theropods, stegosaurs, duckbilled dinosaurs etc.

Yet, none survive today. Oddly enough they are on the ark in ken hams ark museum.

It just doesnt make any sense. No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers, nor are they present in pre mesozoic layers either. Paleozoic fossils are also not found in mesozoic or cenozoic layers either. And of course, cenozoic fossils are not found in paleozoic or mesozoic layers either, just as bunny rabbits are not found with dinosaurs.

This idea that we, the scientists, are hiding fossils of mesozoic flamingos that were found along side dinosaurs is just ridiculous. I've been on many ventures to uncover fossils, particularly those of paleozoic age, and never ever have i found any modern animals such as flamingos. I also have never found mesozoic fossils in paleozoic rock. I have never found paleozoic fossils in mesozoic or cenozoic rock either. Such things just dont exist.

The closest thing one could speak of are Darwins "living fossils" which Darwin described in the origin of species. But even these, are morphologically unique from their modern counterparts, and even these "living fossils" are few and far between in number. I could count "living fossil" examples on two hands, but there are thousands upon thousands of non "living fossil" organisms in the fossil succession.

To simplify things, all one has to do is go to their local zoo, look around, and ask yourself if you see any dinosaurs. Instead of pointing at some fish that looks "kind of" like an old fish, or some clam shell that looks "kind of" like some old clam shell...

all you have to do is go to the local zoo, and ask yourself if there are any brachiosaurs or T rex dinosaurs walking around. Of course there are no dinosaurs at local zoos, and just in the same way, there are no dinosaurs in recent layers of rock either. They just are not there, and this is the physical reality of the world we live in.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is little doubt that the field of evolutionism, including supportive propaganda displays, such as those in museums and textbooks, is riddled with fraud and deception. Are you denying that?

Dan

'little doubt' ?

For Ekklesia born of Yahweh by His Will, there is no doubt at all.

For those in the world, of the world, < shrugs > there is only doubt and fraud and deception continually.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

True sort of, but , well, remember also mankind (with demonic assistance/deception) did create the illusion of 'right' / a false god to serve (many false gods too), that billions never are freed from according to the Apocalypse "the whole world refuses to repent of serving demons"....

Gibberish.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

You have indirectly accused me of hiding flamingo fossils from the general public. I am telling you that, such information is not true.

Are you claiming the fossils of modern plants and animals that were found with dinosaurs are displayed in museums along with the dinosaurs? If so, that would be news to Dr. Carl Werner, who found them ONLY in museum basements, or, if displayed, they were assigned new names to make it appear they were ancient, extinct species.

This has nothing to do with anything else but your accusations, and my response. Now will you actually respond to me? Or are you just going to change the subject? Perhaps i should just re-post my response so you can actually respond to it.

Perhaps you should. But first tell everyone that you have proof that Dr. Werner is lying.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

Are you claiming the fossils of modern plants and animals that were found with dinosaurs are displayed in museums along with the dinosaurs? If so, that would be news to Dr. Carl Werner, who found them ONLY in museum basements, or, if displayed, they were assigned new names to make it appear they were ancient, extinct species.



Perhaps you should. But first tell everyone that you have proof that Dr. Werner is lying.

Dan

I am denying that such "modern fossils" exist. What I am saying is, there is no such thing as a flamingo from the cenozoic that was found by a dinosaur. I have experience with museum collections, I have experience with university collections, I have experience collecting fossils myself, and have published research on them.

Some random guy in a youtube video just isnt an authority in this matter.

And if you think he is, then you should present his evidence, or perhaps he should, himself. Because a youtube video of course is just a youtube video.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

There are hundreds of species of dinosaurs (that we are aware of) with many more being discovered every day. T-rex, brontosaurs, ankylosaurs, brachiosaurs, all sorts of theropods, stegosaurs, duckbilled dinosaurs etc. Yet, none survive today. Oddly enough they are on the ark in ken hams ark museum.

It appears Ken didn't think that one through. God makes it clear that each "kind" of animal was on the ark; so those "left behind" could not have been of a "kind", as God defined them, but rather were corrupted species [e.g., genetic hybrids].

It just doesnt make any sense. No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers, nor are they present in pre mesozoic layers either. Paleozoic fossils are also not found in mesozoic or cenozoic layers either. And of course, cenozoic fossils are not found in paleozoic or mesozoic layers either, just as bunny rabbits are not found with dinosaurs.

Dr. Werner states that representatives from all modern animal and plant groups were found with the dinosaur fossils. I am not surprised you have not heard of them. Neither had I until several years ago.

This idea that we, the scientists, are hiding fossils of mesozoic flamingos that were found along side dinosaurs is just ridiculous. I've been on many ventures to uncover fossils, particularly those of paleozoic age, and never ever have i found any modern animals such as flamingos. I also have never found mesozoic fossils in paleozoic rock. I have never found paleozoic fossils in mesozoic or cenozoic rock either. Such things just dont exist.

Perhaps you should get out more.

The closest thing one could speak of are Darwins "living fossils" which Darwin described in the origin of species. But even these, are morphologically unique from their modern counterparts, and even these "living fossils" are few and far between in number. I could count "living fossil" examples on two hands, but there are thousands upon thousands of non "living fossil" organisms in the fossil succession.

Morphologically unique? Morphology is one of the evolutionism "icons" being challenged by Dr. Werner.

To simplify things, all one has to do is go to their local zoo, look around, and ask yourself if you see any dinosaurs.

That would be as silly as looking for proof against evolutionism in a high school text book, the content of which is controlled by an anti-God evolutionism orthodoxy, supported by a meddlesome, corrupt judiciary wielding the power of the sword.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

"Perhaps you should get out more."

What? Ive worked with paleontology related finds at museums, universities, ive published paleo research and its just a fun hobby. Im a geologist by profession as well, and have worked with fossils in my profession. And youre telling me that...the people that I work with (or perhaps I myself), hide flamingo fossils from the public. Or perhaps I/we are just unaware of these elusive flamingo collections from the late triassic hahaha. Its hilarious just proposing the idea, its just ridiculous. And yet somehow i need to "get out more", to discovery these flamingo fossils.

Triassic flamingos, this is like a comedy. I'll have to bring this up with colleagues for a good laugh.

Perhaps I should just get out more....good response there. Very informative.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have to ask again though, @Bible Research Tools

Aside from a random youtube video, what actual evidence do you have, that I/we are hiding a flamingo collection from the late triassic, from the public eye?

Maybe we are hiding live dinosaurs in our basements too hahaha. Maybe I have a pet triceratops!

Oh, better not let the young earth creationists see my pet triceratops, we dont want people actually believing in God or anything.

This is just absurd.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Old Earth Geology, Part 1

Old Earth Geology, Part 2

I checked out your old-age geology links, where you wrote,

"Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram."​

It seems the only logical explanation is a global flood (combined with catastrophic plate tectonics and other geological upheavals). There really is no other plausible explanation for laminate (non-bioturbated), megasequenced layering; flat coal seams and "benches"; polystrate fossils extending upward through multiple coal seams and/or layering; and so forth. Even the fossil record supports a global flood.

Have you ever seen this lecture on sedimentology of the flood by Dr. Kurt Wise?

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

I checked out your old-age geology links, where you wrote,

"Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram."​

It seems the only logical explanation is a global flood (combined with catastrophic plate tectonics and other geological upheavals). There really is no other plausible explanation for laminate (non-bioturbated), megasequenced layering; flat coal seams and "benches"; polystrate fossils extending upward through multiple coal seams and/or layering; and so forth. Even the fossil record supports a global flood.

Have you ever seen this lecture on sedimentology of the flood by Dr. Kurt Wise?

Dan

This isn't a response to my words, its just a blind statement. Did you read the rest of either post?

For example, "flat coal seams" has nothing to do with anything that I had said in either post. So you aren't really responding to my post. You're just blindly speaking.

Also, you should try to stay on topic. If you want to talk about those topics, go post at those links, not in this this one.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

"Perhaps you should get out more."

What? Ive worked with paleontology related finds at museums, universities, ive published paleo research and its just a fun hobby. Im a geologist by profession as well, and have worked with fossils in my profession. And youre telling me that...the people that I work with (or perhaps I myself), hide flamingo fossils from the public.

This is what I initially wrote:

"Fossils of all major modern plant and animal groups are found with the dinosaur fossils (museums "hide" them in their basements), including flamingos, sandpipers, penguins, cormorants, parrots, owls, boa constrictors, box turtles, frogs, salamanders, opossum, and the duckbilled platypus, among others."​

Dr. Werner said that fossils of all of those modern species have been found with the dinosaur fossils. Are you denying that those modern species have been found with dinosaurs fossils, or just the flamingo fossils?

This is from a 2012 article on Dr. Werner's research:

"In order to test evolution, Dr Werner visited 60 natural history museums and ten dinosaur dig sites in seven different countries. When he asked paleontologists if they had any personal knowledge of modern birds found with dinosaurs, he was in for quite a surprise.

“I interviewed a scientist at the Museum of Paleontology at Berkeley who discussed a parrot fossil they had found in Cretaceous layers (‘dinosaur rock’). But the parrot fossil was not on display in the museum.”
​

"With each interview, more modern birds that had been found with dinosaurs were added to his list, including: parrots, penguins, owls, sandpipers, albatross, flamingos, loons, ducks, cormorants and avocets. Carl assembled this list from interviews he did with various paleontologists, as well as from articles by evolutionist scientists and a textbook (the details of the sources can be found in Living Fossils)."

[Don Batten, "Modern birds found with dinosaurs." Creation Ministries International, 2012]
​

In his book, the Living Fossils, Dr. Werner states,

"Every time you see a T-rex or a Triceratops in a museum display, you should also see ducks, loons, flamingos or some of these other modern birds that have been found in the same rock layers as these dinosaurs, but this is not the case."​

You can hear a summary of his research in this segment (start at the 8:59 mark):

Or perhaps I/we are just unaware of these elusive flamingo collections from the late triassic hahaha.

Is that your rebuttal?

Its hilarious just proposing the idea, its just ridiculous. And yet somehow i need to "get out more", to discovery these flamingo fossils.

Don't be silly. All you have to do is to check out Dr. Werner's research.

Triassic flamingos, this is like a comedy. I'll have to bring this up with colleagues for a good laugh. Perhaps I should just get out more....good response there. Very informative.

Yes, perhaps you should. From the "evidence" I have seen from you thus far, it couldn't hurt.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

I have to ask again though, @Bible Research Tools

Aside from a random youtube video, what actual evidence do you have, that I/we are hiding a flamingo collection from the late triassic, from the public eye?

Who said anything about a flamingo "collection"? Do you equivocate much, or do you reserve your logical fallacies for challenges to the god of evolutionism?

This is just absurd.

Evolution most certainly is.

Dan

 

[NobleMouse]

There are hundreds of species of dinosaurs (that we are aware of) with many more being discovered every day. T-rex, brontosaurs, ankylosaurs, brachiosaurs, all sorts of theropods, stegosaurs, duckbilled dinosaurs etc.

Yet, none survive today. Oddly enough they are on the ark in ken hams ark museum.

It just doesnt make any sense. No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers, nor are they present in pre mesozoic layers either. Paleozoic fossils are also not found in mesozoic or cenozoic layers either. And of course, cenozoic fossils are not found in paleozoic or mesozoic layers either, just as bunny rabbits are not found with dinosaurs.

Hi KomatiiteBIF! I agree that it doesn't make any sense under the conventional uniformitarian geological model, as affirmed by your statement, "No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers...". The biblical creationist view of the layers, as you already know, is that millions of years are not squeezed between the layers of rock seen today - the layers are instead largely the result of the catastrophic flood described in the Bible. Hence, we will not find the proverbial Precambrian rabbits as rabbits do no live in marine environments, they will be found in layers along with other animals from the same environment. Just like if we had a repeat of the flood (which we won't), I would not expect to find horse fossils with horseshoe crab fossils.

I think we agree God made dinosaurs and dinosaurs are referenced in the Bible (Job), and dinosaurs are depicted in cave art, Babylonian art (along with numerous other cultures), dragon legends, and that soft tissue, blood, DNA and other dinosaur biological material is still being found today... all of which points towards the idea that dinosaurs were alive more recently than conventionally dated (while also raising questions regarding the accuracy of conventional dating methods). As such, it is therefore conceivable that various dinosaur kinds could and would have been brought aboard the ark. Why not just believe God made dinosaurs as part of the 'beasts of the fields' on day 6, Job described one, and apparently people throughout history have seen them, written about them, and created artwork depicting them?

This idea that we, the scientists, are hiding fossils of mesozoic flamingos that were found along side dinosaurs is just ridiculous. I've been on many ventures to uncover fossils, particularly those of paleozoic age, and never ever have i found any modern animals such as flamingos. I also have never found mesozoic fossils in paleozoic rock. I have never found paleozoic fossils in mesozoic or cenozoic rock either. Such things just dont exist.

The closest thing one could speak of are Darwins "living fossils" which Darwin described in the origin of species. But even these, are morphologically unique from their modern counterparts, and even these "living fossils" are few and far between in number. I could count "living fossil" examples on two hands, but there are thousands upon thousands of non "living fossil" organisms in the fossil succession.

To simplify things, all one has to do is go to their local zoo, look around, and ask yourself if you see any dinosaurs. Instead of pointing at some fish that looks kind of like an old fish, or some clam shell that looks kind of like some old clam shell...

What should be the expectation? From a biblical creationist perspective, I don't think anyone's bothered by the fact that life from the time of creation or the time of the flood doesn't necessarily look exactly like it does today. If there was never a flood, no dramatic wipe-out of most of the life on earth, then I think creationists would be more bothered. Genesis 6:19-20 does not tell us Noah was to bring two of every single variation within a created kind on board, so it makes sense that we would not see much continuity of specific variations of a created kind. On the other hand, life isn't that morphologically different either -> if it were, no connection or relationship could be made.

all you have to do is go to the local zoo, and ask yourself if there are any brachiosaurs or T rex dinosaurs walking around. Of course there are no dinosaurs at local zoos, and just in the same way, there are no dinosaurs in recent layers of rock either. They just are not there, and this is the physical reality of the world we live in.

The creationist perspective is that most life would have been exterminated during the flood, and there would have been some follow-up extinction, with time, as the climate dramatically changed, availability of resources changed, habitats changed, hunting to extinction, etc... the dinosaurs likely went extinct the same way life goes extinct today (with no assistance needed from asteroids). If we say an asteroid did it 65+Ma ago that landed in Chicxulub, what example of an observed massive asteroid strike that wiped out extensive amounts of life are we comparing this to as affirmation of the hypothesis (or has science just become nothing more than making things up that have never been observed, with controversial evidence at best, and no support from the word of God)? Again, I have to ask why not just believe God's word? If you say, "because the evidence shows otherwise" then I would challenge how you are viewing the evidence - for one, God's word IS evidence. Do you start with the assumption that God's word is true? Taking a step back, do you start with the assumption that God's word is God's word (as opposed to borrowing from supposed Babylonian myths as some heretics floating around the forum here would otherwise prefer us to believe)?

People don't go off to Ivy league universities and graduate with a PhD in paleontology and believe in biblical creationism because there is zero evidence... or even just a smidgen of evidence, there needs to be a lot of evidence, evidence that convicts one of the truth already revealed in God's word. People do; however, go off to Ivy league universities and graduate with a PhD in paleontology (or any other field of science for that matter) and reject the truth because it's already in their heart to do so. It is not in our heart to accept the truth of God's word, for if it were there'd certainly be more than 2 billion people who call themselves Christians today, right? Just sharing some thoughts. We haven't chatted in a while, hope all is continuing to go well with you - God bless!

Here are some pictures I found depicting dinosaurs from various cultures (by no means all inclusive):

Nile Mosaic tile:

Pompeii:

Babylon:

Cave art:

A few written accounts:
Written

God made dinosaurs, people saw dinosaurs. It would just be personal denial of the truth to continue rejecting.

 

[GenemZ]

I checked out your old-age geology links, where you wrote,

"Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram."​

It seems the only logical explanation is a global flood (combined with catastrophic plate tectonics and other geological upheavals). There really is no other plausible explanation for laminate (non-bioturbated), megasequenced layering; flat coal seams and "benches"; polystrate fossils extending upward through multiple coal seams and/or layering; and so forth. Even the fossil record supports a global flood.

Yes... this global flood that was used to eliminate the prehistoric creations from the earth's surface so God could create our current creation.

Here is a much more accurate rendering of Genesis 1:2

But the planet earth was/had become desolate and empty,
and darkness was over the raging waters
{darkness was how the ice pack was formed};
but the Spirit of God {God the Holy Spirit}
radiated heat on the face/surface of the frozen waters.​

All light had been cut off from the previous earth after it was judged and flooded, thus destroying all prehistoric life. Because all light was cut off the waters froze. That is why we see the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters like a hen incubates her eggs (in the Hebrew).

This is too much to deny unless you hate to lose more than anything else.

 

[Job 33:6]

Who said anything about a flamingo "collection"? Do you equivocate much, or do you reserve your logical fallacies for challenges to the god of evolutionism?



Evolution most certainly is.

Dan

You mentioned something about flamingos being hidden the basements of museums. Sounds like a flamingo collection to me. Please do elaborate though on what you meant to say.

 

[Job 33:6]

Don't be silly. All you have to do is to check out Dr. Werner's research.
Dan

And what research does he have on mesozoic flamingos?

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi KomatiiteBIF! I agree that it doesn't make any sense under the conventional uniformitarian geological model, as affirmed by your statement, "No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers...". The biblical creationist view of the layers, as you already know, is that millions of years are not squeezed between the layers of rock seen today - the layers are instead largely the result of the catastrophic flood described in the Bible. Hence, we will not find the proverbial Precambrian rabbits as rabbits do no live in marine environments, they will be found in layers along with other animals from the same environment. Just like if we had a repeat of the flood (which we won't), I would not expect to find horse fossils with horseshoe crab fossils.

@NobleMouse

Hi Mouse,

There are no rabbits in terrestrial cambrian layers either. This isnt about whether the layers are marine or not. Its superpositionally based. There are no modern species of living animals in mesozoic or paleozoic layers, as the friend of yours seems to be proposing. Nor are there mesozoic or paleozoic animals, such as dinosaurs, living today. This should be common sense, but some here do not seem to understand this simple reality.

Just as there are no dinosaurs at the local zoo, there also are no elephants in the mesozoic. Has anyone ever seen an elephant in mesozoic layers? no of course not. There are proto-elephants, like paleomastodons (which are still confined to cenozoic layers). But you dont find modern elephants in the eocene or oligocene, let alone the mesozoic or paleozoic eras.

His best argument for why scientists ourselves are unaware of such fossils is "you should get out more".

Ill be waiting for that research paper on the elusive late triassic flamingo collection...

 

[GenemZ]

Here are some pictures I found depicting dinosaurs from various cultures (by no means all inclusive):

Nile Mosaic tile:

Pompeii:

Babylon:
View attachment 228964

Cave art:
View attachment 228966View attachment 228967

A few written accounts:
Written

God made dinosaurs, people saw dinosaurs. It would just be personal denial of the truth to continue rejecting.

Problem is? Those cultures existed after the Noahic flood. According to your premise such animals should have been destroyed in the flood. That requires more explaining I believe.

It could have simply been from folklore.

Pompeii for example was deeply involved with the occult and drugs. Artists inspired by demons (who actually saw living dinosaurs) could have given visions to the pagan artists of things to paint.

They had their science fiction artists in those days too.

 

[Job 33:6]

@NobleMouse

Hi Mouse,

There are no rabbits in terrestrial cambrian layers either. This isnt about whether the layers are marine or not. Its superpositionally based. There are no modern species of living animals in mesozoic or paleozoic layers, as the friend of yours seems to be proposing.

His best argument for why scientists ourselves are unaware of such fossils is "you should get out more".

Ill be waiting for that research paper on the elusive late triassic flamingo collection...

Now that you have ran this concept by me. It got me thinking, do you believe that there is no such thing as a terrestrial rock of paleozoic age? @NobleMouse