Is evolution a fact or theory?

[NobleMouse]

Now that you have ran this concept by me. It got me thinking, do you believe that there is no such thing as a terrestrial rock of paleozoic age? @NobleMouse

I don't believe there is a paleozoic "age" from ~542 Ma to ~251 Ma years ago. Why do you not believe what is evidentially true regarding dinosaurs from God's word and what is written and illustrated throughout history?

How's the song go again?

"Earth's billions of years old, this I know,
For an isochron told me so,
Little ones that once believed,
Now no longer, all deceived"

 

[Bible Research Tools]

This isn't a response to my words, its just a blind statement. Did you read the rest of either post?

I was responding to the diagram in part 2. Let's take it one step at a time:

1) It is assumed the layering is laminate, with little erosion between layers (as is most layering, world-wide)

2) The Precambrian rock appears to have been flattened by a massive flood surge, but after a major fault occurred.

3) Another fault occurred after layering (and, in the opposition direction), but before the layers hardened, resulting in the depicted plastic deformation.

Since there is no reasonable uniformitarian explanation for uneroded laminate layering (except for maybe at the bottom of the Dead Sea), nor for plastic deformation along a fault line, my original statement stands, which is:

"It seems the only logical explanation is a global flood (combined with catastrophic plate tectonics and other geological upheavals)."​

Catastrophic plate tectonics, or another catastrophic geological event, was assumed to be the cause of the massive, initial flood surge that flattened the Precambrian.

For example, "flat coal seams" has nothing to do with anything that I had said in either post. So you aren't really responding to my post. You're just blindly speaking.

I added the information about the coal seams and polystrates as a bonus. You are welcome to attempt to explain those from a uniformitarian perspective.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't believe there is a paleozoic "age" from ~542 Ma to ~251 Ma years ago. Why do you not believe what is evidentially true regarding dinosaurs from God's word and what is written and illustrated throughout history?

How's the song go again?

"Earth's billions of years old, this I know,
For an isochron told me so,
Little ones that once believed,
Now no longer, all deceived"

The discussion isnt about age. Im just using the terminology, such as paleozoic and mesozoic, to define locality.

Your buddy seems to believe that dinosaurs are found in recent layers, and perhaps he might even think they are still alive (not including birds). He also believes that modern animals, such as flamingos, are found in older layers, such as paleozoic and mesozoic layers.

This just isnt true.

Flamingos do not exist in mesozoic or paleozoic layers, nor are any modern animals, such as my example of elephants, found in such layers.

Likewise, we do not find animals of older or superpositionally lower layers, such as dinosaurs, in recent layers such as those of the mid to late cenozoic, nor do we find them walking around at our local zoos.

The life present in paleozoic and mesozoic and cenozoic layers, are all independent and unique from one another. You might find some animals for example, in the late devonian that can be found in the carboniferous, but you dont find dinosaurs in the holocene. There is a grand difference between these concepts.

 

[Job 33:6]

I was responding to the diagram in part 2. Let's take it one step at a time:

1) It is assumed the layering is laminate, with little erosion between layers (as is most layering, world-wide)

2) The Precambrian rock appears to have been flattened by a massive flood surge, but after a major fault occurred.

3) Another fault occurred after layering (and, in the opposition direction), but before the layers hardened, resulting in the depicted plastic deformation.

Since there is no reasonable uniformitarian explanation for uneroded laminate layering (except for maybe at the bottom of the Dead Sea), nor for plastic deformation along a fault line, my original statement stands, which is:

"It seems the only logical explanation is a global flood (combined with catastrophic plate tectonics and other geological upheavals)."​

Catastrophic plate tectonics, or another catastrophic geological event, was assumed to be the cause of the massive, initial flood surge that flattened the Precambrian.



I added the information about the coal seams and polystrates as a bonus. You are welcome to attempt to explain those from a uniformitarian perspective.

Dan

Post this in the actual thread, and I will respond. As for this topic, I will be patiently waiting for that late triassic flamingo research.

You cant just have a discussion anywhere you want, thats called derailing the thread. Its an off topic discussion.

 

[NobleMouse]

Problem is? Those cultures existed after the Noahic flood. According to your premise such animals should have been destroyed in the flood. That requires more explaining I believe.

Hi genez, I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread--you have brought up so many points and perspectives that I have never considered - so refreshing! My premise here is that dinosaurs would have largely been destroyed in the flood, except for the two of how ever many kind Noah had on the ark (some number greater than zero).

It could have simply been from folklore.

Possibly, yes. If so, my assertion is that the Bible is still true and people saw dinosaurs (at some point), then was passed down to generation by word-of-mouth as folklore.

Pompeii for example was deeply involved with the occult and drugs. Artists inspired by demons (who actually saw living dinosaurs) could have given visions to the pagan artists of things to paint.

Possibly yes again, but in the absence of this being mentioned in the Bible and evidence otherwise, I could only believe the artists were inspired by demons on the basis of speculation.

They had their science fiction artists in those days too.

Certainly, but I find it compelling given the references to dinosaurs in God's word, plus the fact that they are depicted and described by various cultures all over the world, plus the biological material left behind in their fossils.

 

[Job 33:6]

@NobleMouse

Please do google the terms that I am using so that you understand what I am saying.

What that other person, the bible research guy is saying, simply isnt true. His best argument is suggesting that I "get out more" and that I guess I am part of some sort of a giant conspiracy among scientists to hide some sort of a late traissic flamingo collection.

Its just ridiculous. And I hope you can see that. I dont need to "get out more" because im probably more qualified on the topic than anyone on this forum (although, there are a handful of smart scientists on this site, but not too many geologists who actively posts. Maybe just 1 or 2 others). Nor am I part of some grand conspiracy. Im just an everyday guy who studies rocks and fossils.

 

[Job 33:6]

And, just to add on @NobleMouse , even if you dont believe paleozoic layers are millions of years old, my question was, do you believe if there is such a thing as terrestrial paleozoic rock?

Because you said that you we shouldnt find a rabbit in the cambrian because cambrian layers are marine. Which had me pondering the question of if you believed in terrestrial cambrian layers. In which case, one would have to ask why there are no rabbits in terrestrial cambrian layers that are not marine. Further, what if I showed you that terrestrial cambrian layers existed. Would you then be surprised if no rabbits were found in it?

Regardless of all of this, we dont find rabbits anywhere in the fossil record, except in very very shallow layers. 99% of the geologic column does not contain rabbits.

All modern living animals that are alive today, are only found in the top most layers. All animals of the mezoic, such as dinosaurs, are only found in middle layers. Cenozoic animals, early cenozoic, are only found in upper-middle layers. Paleozoic animals are only found in paleozoic layers. And it can be broken down further. Only certain types of dinosaurs are found in certain sections of the mesozoic. Certain types of mammals and reptiles, are only found in certain layers of...say the permian etc.

The fossil record is very specific.

So for someone to come out, saying that there is some sort of flamingo collection, perhaps from mesozoic times, and that all of us scientists are hiding this in secrecy from the world, is a pretty bold claim. I would go as far to say that it is a lie. He is bearing false witness.

 

[NobleMouse]

The discussion isnt about age. Im just using the terminology, such as paleozoic and mesozoic, to define locality.

I googled 'Paleozoic Age' and you used the terms 'Paleozoic age', and now you say the discussion isn't about 'age'. Good, I'm going to eat a piece of swiss cheese and sit on a mouse trap now.

@Bible Research Tools now you see where I come from when I say my experience has been that one cannot expect to 'remove scales' by simply showing the truth of God's word, citing scientific sources, and using logic/reason.

Your buddy seems to believe that dinosaurs are found in recent layers, and perhaps he might even think they are still alive (not including birds). He also believes that modern animals, such as flamingos, are found in older layers, such as paleozoic and mesozoic layers.

This just isnt true.

You are my brother as well. There are not older/younger layers separated by millions/billions of years - there are just layers... from the flood.

Flamingos do not exist in mesozoic or paleozoic layers, nor are any modern animals, such as my example of elephants, found in such layers.

Likewise, we do not find animals of older or superpositionally lower layers, such as dinosaurs, in recent layers such as those of the mid to late cenozoic, nor do we find them walking around at our local zoos.

The life present in paleozoic and mesozoic and cenozoic layers, are all independent and unique from one another. You might find some animals for example, in the late devonian that can be found in the carboniferous, but you dont find dinosaurs in the holocene. There is a grand difference between these concepts.

It's okay that certain life forms tend to only exist in certain layers and does not violate a biblical creationist perspective. This does not mean they are separated by vast amounts of time.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, superpositionally, there must be some age difference. Because you cant have cenozoic layers hovering in space, they have to sit upon pre existing layers.

the point of this whole discussion though, is about whether or not scientists have some secret conspiracy where we are hiding mesozoic flamingo fossils.

It doesnt matter if the mesozoic was 10 years ago, 10 million years ago or 100 million years ago.

The topic is about locality, and whether or not flamingos are in mesozoic layers.

So again, its not about the age of the layers. Its about locality.

And it also doesnt matter if the cambrian was 50 years ago or 500 million years ago. Either the rabbit is in the layer or its not. And you said that we shouldnt find rabbits in marine layers. But im asking, what about terrestrial layers? Or perhaps you do not believe such layers exist.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ill just quote myself again.

"And, just to add on @NobleMouse , even if you dont believe paleozoic layers are millions of years old, my question was, do you believe if there is such a thing as terrestrial paleozoic rock?

Because you said that you we shouldnt find a rabbit in the cambrian because cambrian layers are marine. Which had me pondering the question of if you believed in terrestrial cambrian layers. In which case, one would have to ask why there are no rabbits in terrestrial cambrian layers that are not marine. Further, what if I showed you that terrestrial cambrian layers existed. Would you then be surprised if no rabbits were found in it?

Regardless of all of this, we dont find rabbits anywhere in the fossil record, except in very very shallow layers. 99% of the geologic column does not contain rabbits.

All modern living animals that are alive today, are only found in the top most layers. All animals of the mezoic, such as dinosaurs, are only found in middle layers. Cenozoic animals, early cenozoic, are only found in upper-middle layers. Paleozoic animals are only found in paleozoic layers. And it can be broken down further. Only certain types of dinosaurs are found in certain sections of the mesozoic. Certain types of mammals and reptiles, are only found in certain layers of...say the permian etc.

The fossil record is very specific.

So for someone to come out, saying that there is some sort of flamingo collection, perhaps from mesozoic times, and that all of us scientists are hiding this in secrecy from the world, is a pretty bold claim. I would go as far to say that it is a lie. He is bearing false witness."

 

[NobleMouse]

@NobleMouse

Please do google the terms that I am using so that you understand what I am saying.

What that other person, the bible research guy is saying, simply isnt true. His best argument is suggesting that I "get out more" and that I guess I am part of some sort of a giant conspiracy among scientists to hide some sort of a late traissic flamingo collection.

I think his best argument is that God's word does not support what secular science asserts. But another valid argument he brings up is that which you find issue with. There are examples of polystrate fossils, so not all fossils stick to a given layer... why have you not brought this up? The "triassic flamingo" issue is only an issue if you assign a specific time to the triassic period, right? If we view these as layers laid down by the flood event with multiple layering down over a period of time, but the same relative time period, then we get a view of what is seen in the fossil record. So, who's ready and excited to believe the creation account from God's word, what say ye?

Its just ridiculous. And I hope you can see that. I dont need to "get out more" because im probably more qualified on the topic than anyone on this forum (although, there are a handful of smart scientists on this site, but not too many geologists who actively posts. Maybe just 1 or 2 others). Nor am I part of some grand conspiracy. Im just an everyday guy who studies rocks and fossils.

I don't think all scientists are conspiring against God's word, but I think there are pockets where this does happen and I've posted examples where it has happened in the past... whether it be hiding evidence or fabricating transitional fossils to show features that did not exist with the original fossil find... it can and does happen from time to time.

What's your final decision on the dinos... Is God's word, the written records, the artwork, the soft tissue, dna, etc... able to help you believe that man has been with dinosaurs?

 

[NobleMouse]

Well, superpositionally, there must be some age difference. Because you cant have cenozoic layers hovering in space, they have to sit upon pre existing layers.

the point of this whole discussion though, is about whether or not scientists have some secret conspiracy where we are hiding mesozoic flamingo fossils.

It doesnt matter if the mesozoic was 10 years ago, 10 million years ago or 100 million years ago.

The topic is about locality, and whether or not flamingos are in mesozoic layers.

So again, its not about the age of the layers. Its about locality.

And it also doesnt matter if the cambrian was 50 years ago or 500 million years ago. Either the rabbit is in the layer or its not. And you said that we shouldnt find rabbits in marine layers. But im asking, what about terrestrial layers? Or perhaps you do not believe such layers exist.

Not sure if you're speaking to me?

 

[Job 33:6]

I think his best argument is that God's word does not support what secular science asserts. But another valid argument he brings up is that which you find issue with. There are examples of polystrate fossils, so not all fossils stick to a given layer... why have you not brought this up? The "triassic flamingo" issue is only an issue if you assign a specific time to the triassic period, right? If we view these as layers laid down by the flood event with multiple layering down over a period of time, but the same relative time period, then we get a view of what is seen in the fossil record. So, who's ready and excited to believe the creation account from God's word, what say ye?


I don't think all scientists are conspiring against God's word, but I think there are pockets where this does happen and I've posted examples where it has happened in the past... whether it be hiding evidence or fabricating transitional fossils to show features that did not exist with the original fossil find... it can and does happen from time to time.

What's your final decision on the dinos... Is God's word, the written records, the artwork, the soft tissue, dna, etc... able to help you believe that man has been with dinosaurs?

The person suggested that flamingos have been found in layers with dinosaurs. It doesnt matter if the layers formed 10 minutes ago, or 10 million years ago. Thats his statement, and it is a statement that is independent of time.

He is saying that we the scientists, are hiding flamingo fossils that were found in layers with dinosaurs.

This is just false. He has no evidence for this. Ive worked with, at this point, hundreds of scientists and ive never seen such a thing. Ive built and worked with both museum and university collections. Ive collected many fossils myself, and such things like mesozoic (locality, doesnt matter what age) flamingos just dont exist.

It seems almost like you are trying to defend him. As ridiculous as his claim is.

Lets stick with the topic here.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

You mentioned something about flamingos being hidden the basements of museums. Sounds like a flamingo collection to me. Please do elaborate though on what you meant to say.

I only tell you what Dr. Werner said he found after visiting 60 museums, in several nations, during the filming of his documentary:

“Museums do not show you these modern bird fossils nor do they put modern birds fleshed out with feathers in their dinosaur dioramas. This is wrong. Essentially, every time you see a T. rex or a Triceratops in a museum display, you should also see ducks, loons, flamingos or some of these other modern birds that have been found in the same rock layers as these dinosaurs, but this is not the case. I have never seen a duck with a dinosaur at a natural history museum, have you? An owl? A parrot?”​

He added,

“Not only do they not display birds, but the prestigious American Museum of Natural History suggests the opposite in their dinosaur-to-bird placard. This display is extremely misleading and again does not mention modern birds with dinosaurs.”​

According to Dr. Don Batten, Werner also said that only one museum, the Milwaukee Museum, displayed a modern bird with a dinosaur -- a reconstructed avocet. This is Batten's article:

Modern birds with dinosaurs - creation.com

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Post this in the actual thread, and I will respond. As for this topic, I will be patiently waiting for that late triassic flamingo research.

You cant just have a discussion anywhere you want, thats called derailing the thread. Its an off topic discussion.

You provide those links every time you post. Is that not considered off-topic?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

The person suggested that flamingos have been found in layers with dinosaurs. It doesnt matter if the layers formed 10 minutes ago, or 10 million years ago. Thats his statement, and it is a statement that is independent of time.

He is saying that we the scientists, are hiding flamingo fossils that were found in layers with dinosaurs

This is just false. He has no evidence for this.

I am not trying to downplay your narrative, but my post contained the word "hide" in double-quotes. This is my post, one more time, exactly the way it is written:

"Fossils of all major modern plant and animal groups are found with the dinosaur fossils (museums "hide" them in their basements), including flamingos, sandpipers, penguins, cormorants, parrots, owls, boa constrictors, box turtles, frogs, salamanders, opossum, and the duckbilled platypus, among others."​

Therefore, when you are quoting me, or even paraphrasing me, please include double-quotes on the word hide, or hidden.

Dr. Werner claims those dino-era fossils are hidden away in Museum basements, and in some cases there is a deliberate attempt to deceive the public about the wildlife in the "era" of the dinosaurs. If you don't like what he said, take it up with him.

Evolution: The Grand Experiment-Official Site​

Personally, as a former evolutionist, I find Dr. Carl Werner, M.D, to be most credible.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

It's okay that certain life forms tend to only exist in certain layers and does not violate a biblical creationist perspective. This does not mean they are separated by vast amounts of time.

Dr. Kurt Wise, in this lecture on the fossil record, states the order of the fossil record matches the expectations of a global flood, where the initial layering contains marine fossils, while subsequent layering containing mixtures of land and marine fossils (start at the 36:00 mark):

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

I only tell you what Dr. Werner said he found after visiting 60 museums, in several nations, during the filming of his documentary:

“Museums do not show you these modern bird fossils nor do they put modern birds fleshed out with feathers in their dinosaur dioramas. This is wrong. Essentially, every time you see a T. rex or a Triceratops in a museum display, you should also see ducks, loons, flamingos or some of these other modern birds that have been found in the same rock layers as these dinosaurs, but this is not the case. I have never seen a duck with a dinosaur at a natural history museum, have you? An owl? A parrot?”​

He added,

“Not only do they not display birds, but the prestigious American Museum of Natural History suggests the opposite in their dinosaur-to-bird placard. This display is extremely misleading and again does not mention modern birds with dinosaurs.”​

According to Dr. Don Batten, Werner also said that only one museum, the Milwaukee Museum, displayed a modern bird with a dinosaur -- a reconstructed avocet. This is Batten's article:

Modern birds with dinosaurs - creation.com

Dan

Some random guy on youtube doesnt suffice as evidence. I work with these fossils directly. You cant just tell me what we as scientists do or do not have in our collections. I need more than just some random quote from a guy on youtube.

 

[Job 33:6]

You provide those links every time you post. Is that not considered off-topic?

Dan

Theyre in my signature. Im not going out of my way to post them each time.

Again though, feel free to post within those topics if you would like to discuss them.

 

[Job 33:6]

Dr. Kurt Wise, in this lecture on the fossil record, states the order of the fossil record matches the expectations of a global flood, where the initial layering contains marine fossils, while subsequent layering containing mixtures of land and marine fossils (start at the 36:00 mark):

Dan

And do you know at what superpositional location land animals first appear in the fossil record? I do. But do you?