Is Everybody going to heaven?

Hello, everyone!

I voted NO --- Hell is a real place of fire and brimstone torment, where the worm dieth not; and the rich man who went there in Luke 16 is still there today.

Amen. But really, God votes no also. His truth will stand, no matter the thoughts and ideas which contradict it. God will show those who are His the truth!
and now unsubscribing.

Hello there, Icedtea! Nice to meet you.

icedtea said:

Amen. But really, God votes no also. His truth will stand, no matter the thoughts and ideas which contradict it. God will show those who are His the truth!
and now unsubscribing.

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Before you unsubscribe, please consider this question: Why would God vote NO, after describing in detail (and in writing) what Hell is, who goes there, and why?

Ah, misunderstood your vote, considering what you posted.
What God says is there is a hell, and it is forever. Anything else is a deception.

icedtea said:

Ah, misunderstood your vote, considering what you posted.
What God says is there is a hell, and it is forever. Anything else is a deception.

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Oh --- LOL --- sorry --- I misunderstood your post!

So much for first impressions, eh?

I just finally got unconfused!

icedtea said:

I just finally got unconfused!

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That was my fault --- sorry!

icedtea said:

Amen. But really, God votes no also. His truth will stand, no matter the thoughts and ideas which contradict it. God will show those who are His the truth!
and now unsubscribing.

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No human being has the right to presume to state how God votes in this question. They may only state what they believe to be the truth, they may not pretend to speak for God. This bes the truth no matter what thoughts or ideas contradict that.

icedtea said:

Ah, misunderstood your vote, considering what you posted.
What God says is there is a hell, and it is forever. Anything else is a deception.

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Wrong.

chaela said:

That to whom the name "Jesus" refers is in the Bible. That to which the English word "hell" refers -- as well as the mainstream understanding of what "hell" involves -- is not in the Bible.

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What the English word refers to and what the Jewish mindset understood are fairly similar.

Human parents are not in control of their children's hearts. Our Divine creator, however, is. He was the one who hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 10:27), He was the one who bound us all over to disobedience (Romans 11:32-33). See my previous post, #343 for scriptures that show Who is in the driver's seat in all this. This ties into the popular notion of "free will", which is a myth.

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You post about God hardening Pharaoh's heart but ignore the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said." So there is probably a bit more to that then meets the eye.

And I have reviewed your previous post, and again you take verses out without looking at the whole picture. The Bible says that God does not lead one into sinning, and provides a way out. If we don't chose the way out, it is still there, God still knows the decision, but He doesn't make us not chose the right one. So I'd say the popular notion of free will is more in line with what the Bible actually says.

God

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created them, knowing(not merely hoping) what the outcome of their lives would be.

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And I created my child knowing they would lie.

Again, the police, being merely human, are not in control of the hardness or softness of your heart in the matter the way God is. Once more I invite you to read the Scriptures emphasized in post #343. With power comes responsibility, so an all-powerful deity is, accordingly, all-responsible. God is more in charge than some of the most devout Christians seem to want to believe.

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Again I have read that and have posted why that is not a full picture. Since this comes up again and is a common argument, perhaps we can go deeper.

First, the text states that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (7:3; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10; 14:4,8), and the hearts of the Egyptians (14:17). Second, it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (8:15,32; 9:34), that he refused to humble himself (10:3), and that he was stubborn (13:15). Third, the text uses the passive form to indicate that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, without giving any indication as to the source (7:13,14,22; 8:19; 9:7,35). The questions that arise from this state of affairs are: (1) did God harden Pharaoh on some occasions, while Pharaoh hardened himself on others? (2) Did God do all the hardening of Pharaoh, with the references to Pharaoh hardening himself being the result of God forcing him to do so against his own will? (3) Are all three declarations given in the text actually parallel expressions that mean the same thing? (4) Are the three declarations distinct from one another in their meaning, but all true in their own respects? Is the God of the Bible an unjust, cruel Being?

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In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages “used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done” (1898, p. 821). To illustrate, in discussing the Israelites, Deuteronomy 28:68 states: “Ye shall be sold (i.e., put up for sale) unto your enemies…and no man shall buy you.” The translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and rendered the verse, “you shall be offered for sale.” The text clearly indicated that they would not be sold, because there would be no buyer, yet the Hebrew active verb for “sold” was used. In the New Testament, a clear example of this type of usage is found in 1 John 1:10, which states, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God—KB/DM] a liar.” No one can make God a liar, but the attempt to deny sin is the equivalent of attempting to make God a liar, which is rendered with an active verb as if it actually happened. Verbs, therefore, can have idiomatic usages that may convey something other than a strict, literal meaning.
With that in mind, Bullinger’s fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that “were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: “ ‘I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.’ So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages” (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, “ ‘Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people’: i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….’ ” Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: “ ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet’: i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself.” James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger’s assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened.


A second equally legitimate explanation for the Exodus text is that the allusions to God hardening Pharaoh’s heart are a form of figurative speech, very closely associated with metaphor, known as “metonymy,” where one name or word is employed for another. For example, when we speak of “reading Shakespeare,” we mean that we read his writings or plays. God hardening Pharaoh’s heart would be “metonymy of the subject,” that is, the subject is announced, while some property or circumstance belonging to it is meant. Specifically, under this form of the figure, “[a]n action is sometimes said to have been accomplished, when all that is meant by it is that an occasion was given” (Dungan, 1888, p. 287; cf. Bullinger, 1898, p. 570).


The Bible is replete with examples that illustrate this figure of speech. John reported that “Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John” (John 4:1). In reality, Jesus did not personally baptize anyone (John 4:2). But His teaching and influence caused it to be done. Jesus, the subject, is mentioned, but it is the circumstance of His influence that is intended. His teaching was responsible for people being baptized. Repeatedly in the book of 1 Kings, various kings of Israel are said to have “walked in the way of Jeroboam…who had made Israel sin” (e.g., 1 Kings 16:19,26; 22:52). But Jeroboam did not force either his contemporaries or his successors to sin. Rather, he set an example that they chose to follow. Judas was said to have purchased a field with the money he obtained by betraying Christ (Acts 1:18). But, in reality, he returned the money to the chief priests and then hung himself. The blood money was then used to purchase the field (Matthew 27:5-7). By metonymy of the subject, Judas was said to have done that which his action occasioned. Paul warned Roman Christians: “Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died” (Romans 14:15). What he meant was that they should not set an example that lures weaker brothers into doing what they consider to be wrong. Paul told Corinthian Christians that they were in a position to “save” their unbelieving spouses (1 Corinthians 7:16). He told Timothy that he was in a position to “save” those who listened to his teaching (1 Timothy 4:16). In both cases, Paul meant that proper teaching and a proper example could influence the recipients to obey God’s will for their lives.

Quoted from : http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2259

There are more than enough explanations to do away with the idea that there is no free will. God's plans will come about, true enough. I need to clean my house now, the way I'd like to do it is have my children help. They won't, but it sure would be easier. At the end of the day though, the house will be clean, they won't get the reward for helping, but my plan will be accomplished.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

No human being has the right to presume to state how God votes in this question. They may only state what they believe to be the truth, they may not pretend to speak for God. This bes the truth no matter what thoughts or ideas contradict that.

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God already voted NO ---

Matthew 7:21a said:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...

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AV1611VET said:

God already voted NO ---

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That would be what you read. Not what it says.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

That would be what you read. Not what it says.

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What word didn't I understand?

AV1611VET said:

What word didn't I understand?

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This one:
Luke 10:26
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Note, two questions = two different things.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

This one:
Luke 10:26
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Note, two questions = two different things.

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Look at the answer, Moriah ---

Luke 10:27-28 said:

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

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Here's my quote again:

God already voted NO ---

Matthew 7:21a said:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...

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One doesn't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see what He's saying here.

The question is: Will everyone go to Heaven?

The answer is pretty straightforward, don't you think?

"Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"
The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him.

However, let’s surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God’s character as "just." They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true.

It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice.

Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news.

Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.

Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).

Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute. Then you will find yourself in a terrible dilemma. You will know for certain that hell is a reality. When you get up the courage to warn people you care about, they will smile passively, and say, "Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"

Quoted with permission from www.livingwaters.com

AV1611VET said:

The answer is pretty straightforward, don't you think?

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No, it does not so think. It thinks people elevate their opinions to the level of God's own in their heads and fail to recognize the simple distinction JC made between what bes written and what a person reads. You completely ignored the verse it pointed out which points out that this distinction exists and gets divine recognition. Therefore: "fail".

Moriah understands God voted YES to everyone going to Heaven when He went to the Cross. End of story.

Well, Jesus told the goat company in Matt 25:41 to depart from him into the aionian fire prepared for the devil and his angels (sounds like the lake of fire to me) and in v.46 he further states that these go into aionian kolastin. The Greek word aionian means epochal or age during. (For those who think aion means eternity, then your favorite verse, Rev 20:10, would read "'eternity of the eternities" since in the Greek text it is aionas ton aionan. The KJ pulls a swith and says "forever" to avoid this upsurdity). Kolastin is the Greek word for corrective punishment designed to produce a change of mind. There are other Greek words that convey the idea of eternal and retributive punishment. The Pharisees used them. The pagans used them, but Jesus does not.

Those referenced in Matt 7:21 also depart from Jesus in that they are professing a salvation based on their works, rather than the work of God. They can't enter the kingdom with this mind set.

If being told to depart is a judgment that is final, than we are all in the soup, because Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

No, it does not so think. It thinks people elevate their opinions to the level of God's own in their heads and fail to recognize the simple distinction JC made between what bes written and what a person reads. You completely ignored the verse it pointed out which points out that this distinction exists and gets divine recognition. Therefore: "fail".

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Moriah, I am not sure why you are referring to yourself in the third person, or why you are referring to yourself as "it", but I do know that you can be more than a conqueror through Jesus Christ, Who loves us and gave Himself for us.

Romans 8:37 said:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

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Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

Moriah understands God voted YES to everyone going to Heaven when He went to the Cross. End of story.

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Here, I agree with you. Jesus voted YES to everyone going to Heaven; but if anyone commits the Unpardonable Sin by dying without trusting Christ as their personal Saviour, then their status as a potential citizen of Heaven is going to be stamped ACCESS DENIED. And I pray you understand what I am saying.

Christian universalism/inclusionism/reconciliationism is not the same as Unitarian universalism. So, ascribing to us the doctrine of the latter is not appropriate. We believe in being born again. We believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. We praise the cross and the blood's atoning work. We are in conformity with the Christian creeds and are not a cult. We believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Those at this forum believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Universalism was the prevalent doctrine of the Christian church for its frst several centuries.

Also, just because we believe everyone is eventually saved, as the early Christians doesn't mean we don't believe in judgements or the lake of fire, or the second death.