Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Floatingaxe]

I think I pointed it out to someone yesterday, but the resurrection is physical. Jesus physically and bodily rose and we too will physically bodily raise. This "spiritual body" mess is gnostic garbage.

The resurrection of the dead, including Jesus's resurrection, is a physical, bodily resurrection.

I think this is one of the major problems. You deny an actual resurrection and so develop this doctrine where spirits are transiting from hell to heaven in the afterlife.

Perfect!

 

[enoch son]

I think I pointed it out to someone yesterday, but the resurrection is physical. Jesus physically and bodily rose and we too will physically bodily raise. This "spiritual body" mess is gnostic garbage.

The resurrection of the dead, including Jesus's resurrection, is a physical, bodily resurrection.

I think this is one of the major problems. You deny an actual resurrection and so develop this doctrine where spirits are transiting from hell to heaven in the afterlife.

So eph.2;6 "And hath raise us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." To be raise and resurrection means the same thing, TO STAND UP. So by your owen words you have called God a liar. Let alone Matt.27;52 which mans seems to not look at or see.

 

[enoch son]

This is so revelatory of the ignorance that so pervades UR thinking. No understanding of Scripture. Yes, Jesus became the curse for us. But only those who accept His DIVINE EXCHANGE will receive salvation. No exchange, no entrance to the Kingdom.

Chapther and ver.?

 

[enoch son]

People dead for centuries have no body. Some dead have been utterly destroyed. They will receive a new one to stand before God. No one can see God or stand before him and live! His glory kills you in the natural!

The only way for people to withstand God's glory without disintegrating is to have a glorified body. Now, if the sinner is not given flesh--I am OK with that, but their spirits will stand before God and their spirits will be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons--who have spiritual bodies.

Either way, I'm fine with either view, as there is no distinct reference. However, as the first resurrection is for believers, and are given bodies, why shouldn't the second resurrection provide bodies when it clearly says they come to life again? (Revelation 20:5)

This is not true Sammul had a body when Saul had him called up from the grave.

 

[enoch son]

That is why it is my point

The lake of fire or hell fire is spiritual, and as "Our God is a consuming fire" He will consume all of there wickedness, but they won't have any reward

This does raise the question does that mean God is partial? Does He know one person from the womb and does not know another? Or was it foreknown before the foundation of the world and done before it (the world) started?

 

[enoch son]

God doesn't consume any of their wickedness! That is a fallacy. He pronounces JUDGMENT on the sinner and the sinner who rejected the sacrifice of Jesus will himself pay with his own life for his own sin. The blood doesn't cover the wicked.

It's an understatement that there will be no reward for them!

So Jesus failed on the cross to take all judgement?

 

[enoch son]

No the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is God in the flesh. He rose again after 3 days in the tomb and received a new constitution--glorified. He was able to walk through walls, appear from one place to the next as though walking through a portal. One plane to another plane of existence. When He ascended, He rose BODILY. IN HIS FLESH. That is how we shall be.

The Holy Spirit came a few weeks later.

So walking on the water before that event is out of the question? Our is God - God and He could do whatever He was told by the Father?

 

[Rajni]

Actually my reading is perfectly in line with the Greek and my reading takes Paul into context much better.

Eh-hem. A review of Proverbs 27:2 might be in order here.

Your reading of the text is not a "more accurate reading" because it simply removes Paul from Paul and places Chaela in Paul instead.

This has nothing to do with Chaela. This has to do with taking the God-breathed Scriptures seriously when they declare that God is the Savior of the whole world (not just a small fraction of it).




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[Rajni]

Matthew 7:13-14 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

Amen. Few find it. However, it doesn't unequivocally state "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".

Let's take a look at the above verse, though, while we're here, being careful not to claim the "correct" interpretation of a verse by adding words and ideas that aren't there (otherwise, one runs the risk of adding to God's word).

It says that few will find the narrow gateway and difficult road to life. Is our salvation actually based on a literal "good work" on our part of finding a literal gateway or walking along a rugged road located somewhere? Or do you think Jesus was speaking in figurative terms here?

The most likely answer to these questions (depending on what flavor of Christianity one hails from of course) would be that it's figurative, that the gate is Jesus and the road is obeying His commandments.

Okay, then, few there be that find Jesus. Is this not much of a shocker, when we read in Romans 3:9-12:

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is no one who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.'"
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Not even one. Wow! So, yeah, to say that "few" either find Jesus or obey His commandments seems to be a very nice way of saying that nobody finds or obeys Him.

How many does He find, though? Now that gets interesting!

Read any parable about the lost whatever being sought with no rest until it's found, and you have your answer. No, those parables are not about people seeking God until they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above, nobody does that. So interpreting any parable to say that they do would be to contradict this fact. No, those parables are talking about God looking for each and every last member of humankind until He finds them and brings them to Himself.

So, we're back to where we started. Again, let me know when you find the verse that clearly states that "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".

 

[Rajni]

God curses. He warns countless times in the OT. His curses are forever, and only faith in Jesus Christ can erase them.​

The argument isn't about whether or not God has ever cursed, indeed, He has done that.

Let me repeat, the Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!" (Galatians 3:13). So to be cursed isn't necessarily a permanent condition, given that Jesus, who outright became a curse in our place, is sitting in Heaven now, at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Rajni]

This is the problem---they don't read anything in context.

FA, remember what you rightly said in post #470:

Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!

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[Rajni]

This is so revelatory of the ignorance that so pervades UR thinking. No understanding of Scripture.

FA, again, remember what you rightly said in post #470:

Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!

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[Rajni]

Totally false interpretation.

Totally false interpretation according to ... ?



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[Rajni]

Yea. The first christians had an absolute blast with it. Except for the one slave girl who had molten lead poured down her throat. And except for a few who were mauled and mangled by wild beasts. And except for the few who were crucified. And except for the few that were stoned. And except for the ones who were persecuted by Hindus just earlier this week. Yea, I'm sure their words would be "rich" and "beautiful". Yea. mmm hmm. Christianity is just a great big party where you leave feeling good about everything!

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]As someone who can only speculate how it must feel to endure such things, I trust that He is able to envelop them with some sort of supernatural peace in the midst of such trials and tribulations. But why even speculate? Let's see what Scripture says about it:

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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Acts 5 :40 - They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them. 41 So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] Job 8:21 - He will yet fill your mouth with laughter And your lips with shouting.[/FONT]
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1 Peter 4:13 - Instead, because you are participating in the sufferings of the Messiah, keep on rejoicing, so that you may be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Paul went through some of the worst torment in the name of Christ a person can go through. Let's see what he had to say about it:
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2 Corinthians 4:17 - This light, temporary nature of our suffering is producing for us an everlasting, weight of glory, far beyond any comparison...[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Light and temporary"? What he endured? No kidding!
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Romans 12:12 - Be joyful in hope, patient in trouble, and persistent in prayer.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Maybe Paul should have consulted Yekcidmij before giving such advice off-hand, eh?
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Philippians 1:26 - Then your rejoicing in the Messiah Jesus will increase along with mine when I visit with you again.[/FONT]

Colossians 1:24 - [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Now I am rejoicing while suffering for you as I complete in my flesh whatever remains of the Messiah's sufferings on behalf of his body, which is the church.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] Philippians 4:7 - Then God's peace, which goes far beyond anything we can imagine, will guard your hearts and minds in union with the Messiah Jesus.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Hmmm... do ya think that might have just a little something to do with Christianity's potential to be, as you so eloquently put it, "a great big party where you leave feeling good about everything!"?
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Some people are going to be in for it one day. Nobody can make you believe it. God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy - and that doesn't include everyone. Tough cookie, too bad.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Don't sound too disappointed about that, LOL! Seriously, though, do you suppose that God was just kidding about being Savior of the World?

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[Yekcidmij]

So eph.2;6 "And hath raise us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." To be raise and resurrection means the same thing, TO STAND UP.

Sure. Bodily stand up from the dead. Use whatever verb you want, "raise", "arise", "stand", "resurrect". It still means to rise bodily from the dead.

So by your owen words you have called God a liar.

You can't resist can you? Anyways, no, it's the other way around. You are denying Jesus' resurrection. Tell me what that makes you.

 

[Yekcidmij]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Don't sound too disappointed about that, LOL! Seriously, though, do you suppose that God was just kidding about being Savior of the World? [/FONT]

"The whole world", in it's Jewish context means that God's Salvation isn't limited to descendents of Abraham anymore, but is also open to Gentiles. It does not mean that every gentile is saved.

Why do you keep taking everything out of context?

 

[brinny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teLvofaVeEA&feature=user

 

[Rajni]

I still don't buy it because the 'wheat and the tares' parable keeps yelling at me...there's something amiss there.

If it's a spiritual fire why can't it destroy their spiritual bodies the same as if it were a physcial fire and physical bodies? We get the refinement because that is what we chose...but they didn't choose this, instead they choose to reject christ, why are they then given the priviledge of refinement?

Technically, our salvation, and anything related to it, is not something we brought about by choosing God. No one chooses Him, He chooses us. So any refinement undergone from that point forward is the result of His having chosen that person.


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[Rajni]

Found on a tombstone epitaph:

"Remember friend as you pass by, as you are now so once was I - as I am now you too shall be, prepare for death and follow me!"

Someone had written underneath:

"To follow thee I'm not content, until I know which way you went!"

 

[Rajni]

So Jesus failed on the cross to take all judgement?

I'm sure that's not what they're trying to say, but that sure is what comes across, isn't it? Yikes! :o


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