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Is democracy under threat in the USA?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by mindlight, Dec 7, 2021.

  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

    There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

    1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

    2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

    3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

    What do you think?
     
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  2. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I don't think Democracy is under threat the way you describe in the OP.


    I think much of the Republican's have accepted it (like myself) but realize that the victory was achieved, but on a technicality. Namely rules got changed for things like signature verification of votes, and the media actively colluded to have stories censored, or not covered much like this Time magazine article admits too indirectly.

    The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

    Besides this there was the Covid insanity where the Democrats succeeded in making this not only the biggest issue of the year and campaign but managed to use it to cover up Biden's cognitive decline etc. I really don't think Biden could have been elected without Covid. He just has too many problems going on with his age catching up with him. But they succeeded in making his need to have a less ambitious campaign schedule because of age, a virtue.



    There actually is another side our founding Fathers created Freedom of the Press because the press was suppose to disseminate information of both sides so voters could make an informed decision when voting. Russel Brand had a great video discussing a Matt Tabbi article mentioning how Trump got censored from Twitter and the general campaign against him. I will cover the root article since Brand sometimes cusses etc.


    Will Twitter Become an Ocean of Suck?


    "The original concept of Twitter was egalitarian, flattening, and iconoclastic: “To give everyone the power to create and share ideas, instantly, without barriers.” That mantra fit with then-CEO Dick Costolo’s 2010 claim that “We’re the free speech wing of the free speech party.”...


    Then came 2016. Trump didn’t get the big Republican donor money (it went to Jeb Bush), he didn’t get the support of his party’s bureaucracy (which at various times pulled out stops to try to “derail” his candidacy for the nomination), and even conservative media locked arms against him early in the race (the National Review published an unprecedented “Conservatives Against Trump” mega-piece featuring a slew of famed mouthpieces, who aimed to forestall the “crisis for conservatism” Trump’s presence threatened). Trump throughout his political career benefited from free corporate media coverage, but by the time of his first nomination, he had universally negative editorial treatment in mainstream media and even serious detractors on stations like Fox.

    Once, that would have been fatal to a politician, which is why Nate Cohn could write with confidence in the New York Times that Trump had “just about no chance” to win the Republican nomination in 2016 — because, he said without embarrassment, it is “the party elites who traditionally decide nomination contests.” Such commentators didn’t figure on the power of the Internet, and especially Twitter.

    Trump didn’t need the news media to amplify his message. He was expressing himself in a way that defied contextualization...



    But eventually came the censorship by Facebook and Twitter because those platforms got Trump elected in spite of the negative editorialization from the media. And Trump was eventually banned from Twitter, for the alleged Terrorism of Jan 6th while organizations like the Taliban, Hezbollah and Hamas were allowed to operate.


    So Matt Taibbi makes the argument that the platforms worked too well at disseminating information, Trump took full advantage got elected the 1st time, but on the 2nd go around the institutional gate keepers succeeded in keeping him down. You have the mainstream media and social media actively working to censor and suppress stories, the fact that the Hunter Biden lap top was largely dismissed being the biggest one. That normally would have been a bomb shell. At least half of the Biden voters did not know about it, and the ones that only just heard about it, 1 in 10 admitted that would have changed their vote if they knew before the election.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  3. Tiberius Lee

    Tiberius Lee Well-Known Member

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    147 republican elected official didn’t vote to certify legitimately elected POTUS.

    I rest my case!
     
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  4. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi @Tiberius Lee

    I agree. When a properly held election is over with, those responsible for verifying the results have never been so vociferous and challenging against the outcome of the election. We have never, never, never as a nation had an election in which so many people refused to accept the final outcome. That will be the ruin of democracy as such a national attitude takes over.

    The longest challenge to a duly authorized and properly held election in the past happened in Florida over the hanging chads and was resolved within a few weeks. However, that challenge was over a much, much closer margin. Bush won the Florida vote by less than a couple of hundred votes. Yes, there's a lot that might change that. More importantly, once the issue was resolved, the nation put it aside fairly shortly and governance continued.

    Here we're talking about states where the closest margin is over 10,000 votes. And still, after more than a year now, there are far too many who are unwilling to accept the results even after numerous failed challenges.

    To address the changes made regarding the method of voting in the last election. Each state is responsible for 'how' they will allow the vote to be done, so long as they don't mess with any of the 'descrimination' laws on the federal books. Those found in the Bill of Rights regarding women and people of different cultures or race, being allowed to vote. As far as mail-in balloting, we have actually had that process in place for a number of years and many states opted to push that method of voting due to the pandemic. That doesn't make any individual's vote illegal or improper, if the state in which a such a vote is cast, approves of that method of voting. So I see this cry of 'illegal or improper voting' that some are raising because of the increased us of mail-in ballot voting, as just an empty complaint by a fairly good sized group of sore losers.

    Yes, I believe that our democratic process to elect a leader may well be hampered by such attitudes that are now coming to the fore among the people and especially the elected leaders of the country. However, I just think there will be more and more infighting regarding the issue, but to actually change our basic form of governance seems pretty out there still. We'lll see.

    God bless,
    Ted
     
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  5. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Democracy in the USA is under threat but not for any of the reasons you've given. Democracy here is under threat from a lopsided media establishment serving only the interests of a single political party.
     
  6. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi the strategy of the NWO was to establish democracies in every nation largely with two part systems where the banks are in control over the parties but this system is now being consolidated into an attempted global government. Yes there will be elected officials but power will be centralized and your nation if it is part of this will allow unelected appointed officials to make laws and set standards and regulations. The tax will go to the global authority. So you can still vote but the Bible says in Rev 6 the dragon gives his power and authority to one guy who will take dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months. This is where we are heading.
     
  7. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

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    The technicality being that Joe Biden won a free and fair election in 2020.
     
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  8. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

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    There is no longer a "media establishment". That's a fantasy boogeyman used whenever politicians and celebrities want to play the victim card.
     
  9. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    This article really says the opposite of the point you are trying to make. Trump had a strategy in place that involved excluding mail-in voters who voted overwhelmingly for Biden from being counted. That strategy was clear to Podhorzer, in the article, as early as March 2020. The article praises the efforts of those who kept democracy alive and extended its scope to a whole range of extra voters. Getting a mail-in ballot was extremely tough for my American wife for example as we live abroad and involved all sorts of identity checks. In the end, it got lost in the post by the Republican administration that should have sent it!!! She was able to call directly and get one sent 3 weeks after beginning the process, having already done all the paperwork and checks but I wonder how many others lost their votes to these kinds of tactics because they were not persistent enough. This strategy of exclusion of groups of people who probably would not vote for Trump is not real democracy. Democracy is winning the argument and getting people to vote for you fair and square.

    Covid is real enough having killed 800,000 Americans. That rather than Trump's success with the economy was the real news of the time however much he wanted to shift the agenda. Biden's cognitive health is a worry but dementia is yet to be proven. I do not want his VP to be president.

    A free press cannot print lies without consequence for example about mismanagement of the covid crisis or the biggest lie that Trump won in 2020.

    Personally, I preferred Trump to Hilary Clinton but preferred Jeb Bush to Trump. But Trump had the crowd pull and he used the media very skillfully to bypass those who were out to put him down. His demagoguery has a power to it that only a fool can ignore. It is clear the media on the left are biased against him but even Fox News tried to distance itself from him recently. The new media had an underestimated power to it and an anything-goes lack of regulation. Now that Trump is restricted he calls it Deep tech on a par with the deep state in an alliance against him, but actually, it might just be that standards about fake news are being improved on.

    All things change and it is no wonder that certain avenues of self-promotion are being closed down to him when he tells such whopping lies. In the end, simply using the power of new media better than your opponent and projecting a stronger image into the elector's minds should not be the criteria for election anyway. Trump was winning by the power of projection into people's circumstances not by winning the argument.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2021
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  10. Akita Suggagaki

    Akita Suggagaki Well-Known Member

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    Democracies are based on "rule of law." When law is undermined by our leaders and their most adamant followers, democracy is eroded.
     
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  11. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    How does Fox News serve the Democrats?
     
  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    No we are heading for the globalism of the Second Coming when Jesus will rule his own version of the New World Order. Also, most of the global churches have a more post-millennial and positive outlook on globalization, than the hardcore dispensationalist outlook you appear to be echoing. Personally, I think that both pre-mill pessimism and post-mill optimism have their place and should be held in the balance until Jesus comes back and explains all this end-time stuff.

    After all the impetus since Pentecost has been making disciples of all nations and reversing the fragmentary nationalistic effects of the judgment on Babel.
     
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  13. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The legal judgment by the courts on this election was that there was no fraud and this from a conservative SCOTUS probably just on the brink of reversing Roe v Wade. Trump had no case for overthrowing the election and yet I think he resents the notion that the law can say no and that however much he spends on lawyers the result does not change.
     
  14. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

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    The biggest threat to Democracy in the USA is the movement currently known as Trumpism. Fortunately, the EX President's administrative skills are so poor, he cannot fully take advantage of the opportunity. The Trump family operates in the same manner _organizationally- as a crime syndicate.

    The odd combination of some spineless Republican politicians, paranoid militia gun nuts, right wing anarchists, and naive religious evangelicals fuel this movement. A more sophisticated leader might be able to carry this coalition forward.
     
  15. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    As I said I'm more interested in what the article admits. Namely that they deliberately censored and held back articles "to save democracy". Not to mention actual "collusion" in the media, remember when that was a bad word, of dark conspiratorial proportions? Like all the "collusion with Russia" stories in the News in regards to the Steele Dossier? Which by the way have been finally debunked.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  16. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    I am surprised at what he got away with. Appointing family members to senior government positions, enriching his businesses during his time in office, incitement to insurrection, and now the big lie that he won an election he clearly lost. I would have voted for him in 2016 because I did not like Hilary and though I considered him personally unfit for office even then I thought US institutions were strong enough to handle him. Now I wonder at the damage he has managed to inflict in just 4 years in office.
     
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  17. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    The problem is you are looking at this stuff in isolation and not comparing it to other stuff going in at the time, or even what is going on now... cough cough Hunter Biden, CHAZ/ CHOP, George Floyd free Zone, Antifa etc.


    On the actual incitement to violence Democrats have done far worse and done so without any recuperations. Maxine Waters to be exact with her "push on them and tell them they are not welcome!" remark made in regards to Republicans and Trump administration staffers that was much more blatant than anything Trump actually said in reference to what happened to Jan 6. Trump never asked for rioting, physical violence and intimidation the way she literally dog whistled for, and got away with Scott free!
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  18. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    I agree that many of the attack dogs on the Democrat side have been just as bad at incitement as Trump was. But he was the president and needs to be held to a higher standard.
     
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  19. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

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    Trumpism has done great damage to the institutions that are the underpinnings of a stable republic. The Antifa, Hunter laptop, etc. is typical crap that creates political noise. It is nothing compared to the unrest and political upheaval and assassinations of the 1960's. But the institutions of the US withstood this era because both major parties drew a line for President Nixon, Richard Daley and other criminally minded politicians.

    The current spineless GOP leadership is unwilling to address people like Donald Trump, Marjorie Q Greene, Lauren Boebert, etc.

    BTW, Maxine Waters is a lightweight compared with the Trump loyalists.
     
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  20. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

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