Is democracy under threat in the USA?

[essentialsaltes]

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

Definitely the most serious of the three. The baseless accusations of significant fraud are eroding confidence in our elections -- at least on one side. This is leading to them not voting. Once upon a time, that would have been fine. We used to say 'if you didn't vote, you don't get to complain'. But the participation of nonvoters in the Capitol riot shows that we're getting to a place where people mistrust elections enough to eschew voting and attempt to carry out their own method of choosing a successor.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

While both antiDemocratic and antidemocratic, these activities are being carried out within the scope of the laws and constitutions of the states and the US Constitution. These are little chivvying moves that will slice a few percentage points of voting participation among certain demographics. While ugly and increasingly open about their goals to disenfranchise people, I don't see this as a serious threat to democracy write large.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

I doubt a great many US Christians feel this way. But there are enough that Christian Dominionism and Christian nationalism are movements, and at their kookier 'forced restoration' end there is the potential for domestic terrorism on a larger scale than the usual lone-wolf/small-group abortion clinic bombing and such. At the less kooky end, there will be politicians that try to capture this vote with either sincere or insincere plays and dogwhistles. While a danger, I don't see this as a significant threat to US democracy. But to the extent that group 1 and group 3 overlap and merge and become indistinguishable, this can be a part of the largest threat I see.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I agree that many of the attack dogs on the Democrat side have been just as bad at incitement as Trump was. But he was the president and needs to be held to a higher standard.

He has been! How many times was he impeached 3? or was it 2? I think it was 2 with serious talk to do it a third time.

That whole issue, is very significant if you compare it to things historically. Bill Clinton was only impeached once over the perjury that came from the Monica Lewinsky, Paul Jones sexual harrasment scandal. But the most serious and worthy thing he did that warranted it, he got off scott free. Namely, there was lots of funny business with China where they were stealing our most prized defense secrets while he was accepted donations from them for his library, he had a huge illegal donation funded to his campaign, and he had a energy secretary gutting security (where the nuclear secrets etc. were kept), was very hospitable with accepting tours from Chinese VIPs aka spies. And if that wasn't enough, Clinton pushed through some kind of bill or measure that gave China most favored nation status, which also allowed them to begin to steal our supporting civilian technologies needed to not just make their technology grow but to also help implement those strategic technologies, like PC chip manufacturing etc.


Anyway in my estimation Bill Clinton did more to help a hostile foreign power than Benedict Arnold, or the Rosenbergs giving away the atom bomb to the soviets, but got away with Scott Free. The nation was tired with the Lewinsky scandal and past impeachment and had no stomach to deal with a second one no matter how potentially treasonous etc. But the whole issue was so serious that even Nancey Pelosi was bothered by it and saw it as some form of extreme negligence.


But that whole issue of the Cox Report, is another thing to consider, when considering the recent past. Like the complaining of Hilary Clinton that her emails cost her the presidency etc. From I can tell, the whole email scandal happened because she was trying to evade freedom of information laws and did so to hide all the dubious money making schemes of the Clinton foundation. Like how they made tons off of Haiti Hurricane relied where almost none of the money they raised made it to the Haitians etc.

 

[miamited]

As I said I'm more interested in what the article admits. Namely that they deliberately censored and held back articles "to save democracy". Not to mention actual "collusion" in the media, remember when that was a bad word, of dark conspiratorial proportions? Like all the "collusion with Russia" stories in the News in regards to the Steele Dossier? Which by the way have been finally debunked.

Hi @Pavel Mosko

One such article being the one that Trump and David Pecker tried to hide concerning Mrs Daniels. Fortunately, that was a payment made where the parties didn't get the full value of their money.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Hi @Tiberius Lee

I agree. When a properly held election is over with, those responsible for verifying the results have never been so vociferous and challenging against the outcome of the election. We have never, never, never as a nation had an election in which so many people refused to accept the final outcome. That will be the ruin of democracy as such a national attitude takes over.

The longest challenge to a duly authorized and properly held election in the past happened in Florida over the hanging chads and was resolved within a few weeks. However, that challenge was over a much, much closer margin. Bush won the Florida vote by less than a couple of hundred votes. Yes, there's a lot that might change that. More importantly, once the issue was resolved, the nation put it aside fairly shortly and governance continued.

Here we're talking about states where the closest margin is over 10,000 votes. And still, after more than a year now, there are far too many who are unwilling to accept the results even after numerous failed challenges.

To address the changes made regarding the method of voting in the last election. Each state is responsible for 'how' they will allow the vote to be done, so long as they don't mess with any of the 'descrimination' laws on the federal books. Those found in the Bill of Rights regarding women and people of different cultures or race, being allowed to vote. As far as mail-in balloting, we have actually had that process in place for a number of years and many states opted to push that method of voting due to the pandemic. That doesn't make any individual's vote illegal or improper, if the state in which a such a vote is cast, approves of that method of voting. So I see this cry of 'illegal or improper voting' that some are raising because of the increased us of mail-in ballot voting, as just an empty complaint by a fairly good sized group of sore losers.

Yes, I believe that our democratic process to elect a leader may well be hampered by such attitudes that are now coming to the fore among the people and especially the elected leaders of the country. However, I just think there will be more and more infighting regarding the issue, but to actually change our basic form of governance seems pretty out there still. We'lll see.

God bless,
Ted

The right hates the left so much that they would rather take a medicine(to kill parasites in animals) themselves and give it to their children just to prove that they don’t believe what liberal elite are saying about the pandemic. This is the current America we live in. Saving democracy or practice democracy is far from their mind. They don’t mind destroying America as long as it also destroy the left. During Trump era they didn’t mind that a American enemy manipulated our democracy, as long as their guy in power. The right doesn’t care about anything accept destroy the left.

 

[durangodawood]

147 R congress people voted to overturn election results.

Yes democracy is in danger in the USA.

 

[SimplyMe]

Democracy in the USA is under threat but not for any of the reasons you've given. Democracy here is under threat from a lopsided media establishment serving only the interests of a single political party.

I was tempted to answer that I agreed: that OAN, Newsman, Fox (particularly Hannity and Carlson), etc. have such lopsided reporting towards Republicans that it is threatening the nation. I find it odd that when Trump supporters talk of "the Media" they discount any right wing media -- even though other times they'll crow about how right wing media gets much higher ratings.

To me, this is where the real issue lies -- the polarization of the country. I've seen news reports (from right wing sources) and even speeches from those on the right where they talk about the left as "enemies of America" and "traitors," that they are all out to destroy America. Of course, objectively this is not true.

Yet we are quickly getting to a point where we have trouble even talking about it. I fully expect someone to argue with me that Democrats are actively trying to destroy America. It is this type of thinking -- that the other side is an "enemy" and must be stopped at all costs (and there is a lot of "fight" and "kill" rhetoric coming from some of the more extreme on the Right) -- that seems to be a threat to destroy the United States in the near future.

 

[Tanj]

My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

What do you think?

It's quite telling that the secession that started the US civil war was because the Confederate states ACCEPTED that Lincoln won the election. They were willing to kill each other, but not go so far off the rails to suggest the election was rigged.

 

[disciple Clint]

My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

What do you think?

I think that you cannot support any of your contentions with evidence.

 

[Goonie]

My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

What do you think?

With the govt effectively planning to ban all effective peaceful protest, and next year legislating to give ministers the power to overrule judges im more worried about the UK.

 

[cow451]

I think that you cannot support any of your contentions with evidence.

#1 Trump lost a free and fair election. He refuses to admit it. Many of his followers believe the Big Lie
#2 GOP legislative efforts are designed with the purpose of increasing GOP advantage by lowering turnout overall. I think their assumption is not accurate but the GOO believes it.

 

[miamited]

HI @HTacianas

Democracy in the USA is under threat but not for any of the reasons you've given. Democracy here is under threat from a lopsided media establishment serving only the interests of a single political party.

I've heard that complaint before, but it always seems to be more widely crowed by those who 'want' the media to be slanted to one position or the other. Some just isn't slanted in the way they want it to be. The media, as in the journalistic media of newspapers and news search engines and such should not be slanted at all. Sure, they can support opinion pieces and report them and there are now some media news sources that seem to do a lot more 'opinion' reporting than we used to have. But that is also a part of their job, on the whole of reporting to us the news, to also report how some are feeling about that news. But honestly, news sources such as OneAmerica, Newsmaxx and a lot of Fox 'special' shows, seem to be a lot more prevalent and vociferous in pushing a particular slant than most other news sources.

Then you have what purport to be news sources that are just out there. Media that pushes some pretty wild tales. Infowars, which honestly lives up to its name. It is all about pushing bad or highly questionable information that is designed to create a war like media presence. A definition from Cornell University Library source says this about 'what' one can expect from such sources:

Adapted and extended based on the definitions used by Melissa Zimdars' Open Sources project.

• Fake News: Sources that entirely fabricate information, disseminate disinformation and deceptive content, or grossly distort actual news reports.
• Misinformation: False information that is spread regardless of an intent to mislead.
• Disinformation: False claims and information and conspiracy theories that are spread with the intent to mislead.
  For a clear explanation of the difference between misinformation and disinformation, see “Misinformation” vs. “Disinformation”: Get Informed On The Difference.
• DeepFakes: Use of video software to create events that never happened or distort a person's statements for propaganda purposes or to discredit public figures for political gain.
• Satire: Sources that use humor, irony, exaggeration, ridicule, satire, and false information to comment on current events.
• State-sponsored News: Sources, particularly in repressive or authoritarian states, operating under government control that spread disinformation and misinformation. Propaganda.
• Junk Science: Sources that promote discredited conspiracy theories or scientifically false or unverifiable claims.
• Hate News: Sources that actively promote racism, misogyny, homophobia, and other forms of violence, bias, and exclusion.
• Clickbait: Sources that use exaggerated, misleading, or questionable headlines, social media descriptions, and/or images to generate traffic on a website.
• Political: Sources that provide generally verifiable information but only when it supports certain points of view or political goals.
• Credible: Sources that circulate news and information in a manner consistent with traditional and ethical practices in journalism. (Remember: even credible sources sometimes rely on clickbait-style headlines or occasionally make mistakes. No news organization is perfect, which is why a healthy news diet consists of multiple sources of information, especially sources that issue corrections on previous reporting).

That's just my 2¢ worth on the issue of this cry that the news reporting we receive is the boogeyman that haunts us all. Personally, I think we're just seeing the pouring fourth of what the Scriptures declare will be the way people are living as the last days approach. People will be more greedy, spiteful, hateful and contentious and the love of most will grow cold. As an overall outlook on the American landscape, we here in the United States of America are leading the world in those parameters. Now that's not to say that the same things aren't happening around the globe. But as I look out my front window, I see the American people becoming more and more like those foretellings of the Scriptures and Trumpism is not the answer against such attitudes, but the building up. I really don't think anyone with their eyes open can't see that this vitriol of hateful, spiteful ideas and words being slung around hasn't gotten considerably worse over the last 6 years.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

The biggest threat to Democracy in the USA is the movement currently known as Trumpism. Fortunately, the EX President's administrative skills are so poor, he cannot fully take advantage of the opportunity. The Trump family operates in the same manner _organizationally- as a crime syndicate.

The odd combination of some spineless Republican politicians, paranoid militia gun nuts, right wing anarchists, and naive religious evangelicals fuel this movement. A more sophisticated leader might be able to carry this coalition forward.

Hi @cow451

You mention one of the issues that I hold strongly against another Trump presidency. That is that if we get Trump we also must take on financially supporting his entire immediate family as government head honchos. He just doesn't seem to be able to work well with people outside of his immediate family and that leads me to believe that's because they have been indoctrinated to his way of thinking and have long believed that his way of thinking is the way we should all think about various and sundry issues. Honestly, the way I've seen him attack those who aren't with him, I imagine there's a fairly strong feeling of fear and anxiety for any family member that doesn't play ball by his rules. He seems to even be ostracized by most of his extended family for treating them so poorly when they wouldn't play ball his way.

Personally, I like a leader who can pull from folks who are not a part of his personal indoctrination, but align with him politically from their own knowledge and work and are not a part of his family. There's a reason that nepotism is frowned on in a lot of ways.

nep·o·tism
/ˈnepəˌtizəm/
noun

1. the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.

God bless,
Ted

 

[LightLoveHope]

My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

What do you think?

As a Londoner with the English tendency to analyse and draw conclusions, the American way of fighting through issues, swinging from one situation to another is dizzying.

I think the whole point about democracy is it is always under threat, because it is the open discussion, the pushing of differing forces that bring about a final resolution. So grand goals have actually failed. The war of terror, it has been repressed but still nutcases are murdering people.
The war on drugs, drugs are still big business, but how the society copes is shifting.

Just take the rise of discussion forums, like this one, commentators who just comment and get the audience to listen and steer the results. Add to this cultural understanding of identity, origins, belonging and who will listen to different opinions, we are in a new world compared to when I grew up. Put one issue down. The world population has doubled in my life. 50% of people now live in urban communities. War for most of us is a none experience. We are likely to die of old age, and be highly educated than at any other period in human history.

This shift is difficult to get ones head around, and many groups feel lost. I live in a city where 50% of the young people come from somewhere else. Their anxiety is literally in not knowing what the future maybe, and seeing storm clouds looming which frighten them, without seeing a way through from the past.

So in one sense the old democracy is dead, but something different is arising.
God bless you

 

[durangodawood]

...Personally, I think we're just seeing the pouring fourth of what the Scriptures declare will be the way people are living as the last days approach. People will be more greedy, spiteful, hateful and contentious and the love of most will grow cold. As an overall outlook on the American landscape, we here in the United States of America are leading the world in those parameters. Now that's not to say that the same things aren't happening around the globe. But as I look out my front window, I see the American people becoming more and more like those foretellings of the Scriptures and Trumpism is not the answer against such attitudes, but the building up.....

But a lot of Christians rejoice at the nearing of the end times and so cannot help but view this increasing strife and coldness of heart with a welcoming attitude - perhaps with tinges of ambivalence. Thats how it seems to me anyway.

 

[miamited]

But a lot of Christians rejoice at the nearing of the end times and so cannot help but view this increasing strife and coldness of heart with a welcoming attitude - perhaps with tinges of ambivalence. Thats how it seems to me anyway.

Hi @durangodawood

Well, I would be careful in using the word 'rejoice', although perhaps you are correct concerning how some people see these events unfolding. My position is just that I'm neither surprised, nor do I think that there's going to be anything to do about it. God's word is true and His prophecies have always proven true also. So if these attitudes I mention don't come about...then Jesus never returns. I would certainly be saddened if that were a possibility, but of course, I know that it is not.

I can, however, understand when someone hears someone proclaim these truths of God's word, that there might be a hint of joy and expectation that those last days seem to be finally arriving. Although, let me be quick to point out that it still may be 100-200 years away, or more. We can only imagine 'how' bad these things are really going to get. I bring to remembrance the movies of Mad Max and how the world and all the hate and anger were portrayed in them and think that things on the earth could really get that bad. If so, then we're likely still several dozen or hundred years off from the rise of the final Anti-Christ and the world to which Jesus will return.

My position has long been that the way of the world that we read about in the Scriptures of the final days, is not just going to suddenly come upon us like the rush of a flood. We will slowly, perhaps at times even imperceptibly, become more and more jaundiced and hate filled. While today we still see a lot of love for one another, and especially the brothers and sisters in Christ, my understanding of the Scriptures is that by the time Jesus returns there will be so very, very little. Jesus says of those later days that the love of MOST will grow cold. So, days such as this are seen as merely steps in the direction that we will be going, but not yet near the final condition.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi @LightLoveHope

As a Londoner with the English tendency to analyse and draw conclusions, the American way of fighting through issues, swinging from one situation to another is dizzying.

I'm not too terribly familiar with British Parliament, but they have been known to go at it, so to speak, tooth and nail on issues. I must admit though, that they generally act much more civilized about it. Perhaps the U.S. government should consider wearing wigs, although I'm now reading that practice is about to change, and dressing up special to remind the men and women who do the job of governing that people are watching and listening to everything they say and do.

We just seem to have several uncouth and immature representatives that are prone to speak off the cuff without any consideration for what their words actually mean or how they are taken. Then several others who are so partisan that they spend an inordinate amount of time and energy attacking, making outlandish attacks. One recently likened the present administrations response to Covid to the acts of Nazi Germany. Honestly, my guess is that person failed history, or it's just a meanness that is bred in them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Matt5]

My American grandfather joined the British army to defend democracy over here in Europe in 1939. But is it now under threat back home in the USA?

There are a number of reasons why many amongst Americas many friends around the world have growing concerns.

1) Trump lost the election, but a significant proportion of the Republican party continues to deny that. This non-acceptance of a clear result undermines the legitimacy of American democracy globally.

2) Republican legislatures are busy changing the ways votes are counted so that Trump or Trump's candidate will win in 2024.

3) A great many Christians seem to prefer a theocracy to democracy and consider that the Democrats have now gone so far beyond the pale with LGBTQ rights etc that is time for a forced restoration of Christian America whether or not the majority of people want that or not.

What do you think?

1) PBS Interview with Ai Weiwei: "You [the US] are already in the authoritarian state"

You cannot have an authoritarian without an infrastructure of support. Trump lacks that support. Still, the infrastructure of support is in place for the left. They just need the right leader.

2) Why don't you give us some specific examples? Did you look at what the left did in the 2020 election? It revolves around gaming the system, some fraud and some unconstitutional activity.

This article talks more about gamed stuff rather than outright fraud.
Book Review: ‘Rigged’ and ‘Our Broken Elections’ - WSJ
archive.md

Note: Gaming something means pushing things to the edge. Is suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story illegal? Surveys suggest that had this story not been suppressed by the news media and big-tech then the outcome of the election could have been changed.

This next link is to my forum post about the good guys - the progressives.

The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

"Saved" means rigged as in the book Rigged.

Here's one for third-graders:

Mail-in ballot requirements are in the Pennsylvania constitution. New mail-in ballot legislation did NOT amend the constitution. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court threw out a challenge to the new legislation. Even though a third-grader could figure out that the new mail-in ballot legislation was in clear violation of the state constitution, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court could not.

Nothing to see here. Move on.

3) The US is already heading toward a theocracy of the religion of equality.

You know the Tower of Babel was really about equality, right? Here the people were being transformed from stones (everybody different) to bricks (all alike.) Kind of like today.

Did you know that God hates bricks? At least on altars he does:

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

God hates bricks because people are stones.

In conclusion, the support structure is in place. The religion of equality has infected the land. Once the left can find somebody who is less corrupt than Hillary and having less dementia than Joe then maybe they will get their authoritarian.

 

[cow451]

1)

2) Why don't you give us some specific examples? Did you look at what the left did in the 2020 election?

The "Left", if you mean the Democrats, won a free and fair election.

It revolves around gaming the system, some fraud and some unconstitutional activity.

The only fraud cases that I can find that have been prosecuted or documented are some individuals trying to cheat on EX President' Trump's behalf.

Nothing to see here. Move on.

The one point on which we agree.

 

[98cwitr]

We can't have fair elections without Voter ID. Without fair elections democracy is under threat. Yes.

 

[cow451]

We can't have fair elections without Voter ID. Without fair elections democracy is under threat. Yes.

EX President Trump's Vice President said the 2020 election was legitimate. Would Mike Pence lie to you?