Is "dating" & "girlfriend/boyfriend" inappropriate?

[vortigen84]

But the Bible does not equate handholding or kissing as "impure". You did that. And your particular views cannot be binding to "single Christians" as a whole. (And just so you know, I don't have a personal stake in this topic as I've been married my whole adult life, and I still actually like my husband, so I'm not looking to "skirt the rules" for some cheap thrills or anything.)

However, if you believe in your heart that such typical "dating" activity is impure, then you should by no means engage in it. For you, it is impure.

Yeah, I know that some sins are only relative to conscience, and I know that legalism is trying to bind others to your conscience, to lay down your conscience as "Thus sayeth the Lord." That's what some people do with smoking pot, drinking alcohol, or so on.

I don't think this is one of those things. I think there is a real problem here when the figures for sexual sin are so high. I don't see anything about dating or having a girlfriend or boyfriend in the Bible either.

Oh well, I don't think this is something I will find agreement on with anyone else here.


PS Vote libertarian.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I never liked when a woman would be like "I can't kiss you...I can't even hug you or sit near you because its a sin!". Its like "Really?!?". I understand when people are younger and they can't control their urges as well and kissing could lead to sex. But as adults we are a bit better and contrling those urges, or at least I am.

Oddly enough my fiance does not believe in kissing or even being in the same room together for to long (even if others are there). I respect her view but still have talked to her about it. Now she is ok with kissing and realizes its not a sin, but there is a line that we shouldn't cross and we agreed we WILL not cross since we made mistakes with people in our past.

 

[vortigen84]

Alright, well it doesn't look like anyone is going to go with my extreme black and white views. Consensus here is I am being legalistic. This may be a fair judgement on me, I don't know.

For what it's worth, I thought I'd post these from gotquestions dot org

Question: "What is an appropriate level of intimacy before marriage?"

Answer: Ephesians 5:3 tells us, “But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity...because these are improper for God's holy people.” Anything that even “hints” of sexual immorality is inappropriate for a Christian. The Bible does not give us a list of what qualifies as a “hint” or tell us what physical activities are approved for a couple to engage in before marriage. However, just because the Bible does not specifically address the issue does not mean God approves of “pre-sexual” activity before marriage. By essence, foreplay is designed to get one ready for sex. Logically then, foreplay should be restricted to married couples. Anything that can be considered foreplay should be avoided until marriage.

If there is any doubt whatsoever whether an activity is right for an unmarried couple, it should be avoided (Romans 14:23). Any and all sexual and pre-sexual activity should be restricted to married couples. An unmarried couple should avoid any activity that tempts them toward sex, that gives the appearance of immorality, or that could be considered foreplay. Many pastors and Christian counselors strongly advise a couple to not go beyond holding hands, hugging, and light kissing before marriage. The more a married couple has to share exclusively between themselves, the more special and unique the sexual relationship in that marriage becomes.


Question: "What does the Bible say about dating / courting?"

Answer: Although the words “courtship” and “dating” are not found in the Bible, we are given some principles that Christians are to go by during the time before marriage. The first is that we must separate from the world's view on dating because God's way contradicts the world's (2 Peter 2:20). While the world’s view may be to date around as much as we want, the important thing is to discover the character of a person before making any commitment to him or her. We should find out if the person has been born again in the Spirit of Christ (John 3:3-8) and if he or she shares the same desire toward Christ-likeness (Philippians 2:5). The ultimate goal of dating or courting is finding a life partner. The Bible tells us that, as Christians, we should not marry an unbeliever (2 Corinthians 6:14-15) because this would weaken our relationship with Christ and compromise our morals and standards.

When one is in a committed relationship, whether dating or courting, it is important to remember to love the Lord above all else (Matthew 10:37). To say or believe that another person is “everything” or the most important thing in one’s life is idolatry, which is sin (Galatians 5:20; Colossians 3:5). Also, we are not to defile our bodies by having premarital sex (1 Corinthians 6:9, 13; 2 Timothy 2:22). Sexual immorality is a sin not only against God but against our own bodies (1 Corinthians 6:18). It is important to love and honor others as we love ourselves (Romans 12:9-10), and this is certainly true for a courtship or dating relationship. Whether dating or courting, following these biblical principles is the best way to have a secure foundation for a marriage. It is one of the most important decisions we will ever make, because when two people marry, they cleave to one another and become one flesh in a relationship which God intended to be permanent and unbreakable (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5).​

 

[GravyTrain2012]

When covenant headship is transferred from the girl's father to the man as her husband.

That is why the father gives his daughter in marriage. Very traditional.

Where is this in Scripture?

 

[vortigen84]

Where is this in Scripture?

St Paul's letters, such as Corinthians, go into detail about headship. For example, "the head of every wife is her husband."

If you want to know more: The Christian Family

Basically, marriage is entering into a covenant relationship with someone, in a similar way as when you are saved you enter into a covenant relationship with Christ as its head, or Lord (hence why Sarah called Abraham "lord.") You are married when the guy becomes your covenant head.

 

[GravyTrain2012]

Oh that's too much text for me right now, but it looks good.

 

[seeingeyes]

Yeah, I know that some sins are only relative to conscience, and I know that legalism is trying to bind others to your conscience, to lay down your conscience as "Thus sayeth the Lord." That's what some people do with smoking pot, drinking alcohol, or so on.

I don't think this is one of those things. I think there is a real problem here when the figures for sexual sin are so high. I don't see anything about dating or having a girlfriend or boyfriend in the Bible either.

Oh well, I don't think this is something I will find agreement on with anyone else here.

I just want to be clear that I'm not accusing you of anything, "legalism" or otherwise. In fact I don't necessarily think that you are wrong.

Everyone should be willing and able to commit to each other in love for a lifetime based solely on what they learn during the course of a friendship. It's a beautiful idea and, frankly, if I found myself single tomorrow I would probably have the same high standards that you do. (I'm not into trying people on like shoes. I'm in or I'm out.)

But the simple fact is that most people, including Christians, are not willing and able to commit to each other in love for a lifetime based on what they learn from a friendship, or even from "dating". So what is the answer? Should we enforce rules of outward behavior that mimic true commitment? Or should we tackle the heart of the problem, which is broken timid hearts that have lost so much already that they dare not risk more?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

When covenant headship is transferred from the girl's father to the man as her husband.

That is why the father gives his daughter in marriage. Very traditional.

I've never really heard of it like that and never really heard any christian use that as the reason for a father walking his daughter down the aisle. As stated above I get the head of it all thing, but nothing in the bible says the father has to walk the bride down to transfer it.

Because how would it work for daughters who don't have a father (like my fiance)? I was always taught the bride and dad thing is just a wedding tradition more or less and doens't have to be done (although I do it cause I love most traditions). I was taught the man is the head of the marriage...etc, so when you marry as a man, you automatically become the head of the house.

Question: "What is an appropriate level of intimacy before marriage?"

I disagree with it. Its just another person stating what they think is a sin and what isn't when the fact is there no real answer. Even the "hints" don't give specific answers. And if kissing is foreplay what do you call it when little kids do it? Or when family does it? Now I can see french kissing being more on that line, but evne then its not a sin. It can lead to it though.

To say or believe that another person is “everything” or the most important thing in one’s life is idolatry, which is sin

Again I disagree. Theres a diffrence between the love you have for God and for your spouse. I've always been taught that. Because how can a husband love his wife like he loves Christ if it just said we are not suppose to do that? lol. Not to mention no marriage would last if you had not enough love. The whole point of love is that you love that person with everything you have.

Now, this doens't mean you love them MORE then God. As as stated you love them like you do Christ. For example I tell my fiance "I love you with my whole heart, but your in second because God is my first love!". And we agree on that. God is our first love, but we also realize there are two loves at play to some degree.

I think the only time "love" in a marriage become idoltry is when you are missing your ususal routine with God because your to busy loving your spouse. Example you decide to have sex sunday morning and skip church. Or maybe on prayer meeting night you decide to go see a romantic movie instead. That to me would be the only time it becomes dangerous, sinful and idoltry. At least thats how it works for most everything. Games were my idol until I stopped gaming and spent that time going to church...etc.

---edit---

Everyone should be willing and able to commit to each other in love for a lifetime based solely on what they learn during the course of a friendship. It's a beautiful idea and, frankly, if I found myself single tomorrow I would probably have the same high standards that you do. (I'm not into trying people on like shoes. I'm in or I'm out.)

But the simple fact is that most people, including Christians, are not willing and able to commit to each other in love for a lifetime based on what they learn from a friendship, or even from "dating". So what is the answer? Should we enforce rules of outward behavior that mimic true commitment? Or should we tackle the heart of the problem, which is broken timid hearts that have lost so much already that they dare not risk more?

I've never understood how anyone could no willingly commit to someone for life. This comes from a disabled man whos had his heart stabbed, beaten, crushed, blow up a crazy amount of times. Each time a woman left me I stood proud I never left her because the word commit is not just a word you throw around. I mean it!

Thats why me and my fiance work so well. Were together for life (insert vows here). I even told her as her boyfriend that by being my girlfriend I already am applying the vows as a promise to her, her family and to God. She found it extremnly romantic and agreed to do the same!

 

[vortigen84]

I've never really heard of it like that and never really heard any christian use that as the reason for a father walking his daughter down the aisle. As stated above I get the head of it all thing, but nothing in the bible says the father has to walk the bride down to transfer it.

Neither did I. I said marriage, not wedding.

But as for giving a daughter in marriage: Bible and Library Search: give daughter

Because how would it work for daughters who don't have a father (like my fiance)? I was always taught the bride and dad thing is just a wedding tradition more or less and doens't have to be done (although I do it cause I love most traditions). I was taught the man is the head of the marriage...etc, so when you marry as a man, you automatically become the head of the house.

If she has no dad, she has no dad.

I have heard one pastor talk about her finding a substitute head such as a pastor, but I don't know about that.

I disagree with it. Its just another person stating what they think is a sin and what isn't when the fact is there no real answer. Even the "hints" don't give specific answers. And if kissing is foreplay what do you call it when little kids do it? Or when family does it? Now I can see french kissing being more on that line, but evne then its not a sin. It can lead to it though.

Which is why my OP is dealing with romance rather than just kissing and touching as such. If I kiss and touch my younger brother, that is not inappropriate affection in itself -- we could just be Italians -- though if it were done in a romantic context then that would be something else.

Again I disagree. Theres a diffrence between the love you have for God and for your spouse. I've always been taught that. Because how can a husband love his wife like he loves Christ if it just said we are not suppose to do that? lol. Not to mention no marriage would last if you had not enough love. The whole point of love is that you love that person with everything you have.

This is what Jesus taught:

Matthew 22:36-40

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”​

Your wife is not God, she comes second. She should therefore not be "everything" to you, that is inappropriate prioritization of her. The article is correct.

I think the only time "love" in a marriage become idoltry is when you are missing your ususal routine with God because your to busy loving your spouse. Example you decide to have sex sunday morning and skip church. Or maybe on prayer meeting night you decide to go see a romantic movie instead. That to me would be the only time it becomes dangerous, sinful and idoltry. At least thats how it works for most everything. Games were my idol until I stopped gaming and spent that time going to church...etc.

When you're married, you become the head of a covenant relationship: your marriage. That puts you in a position of responsibility for that marriage before God; you will give an account to God for that marriage.

If you then as head fail to adequately lead and take responsibility for the spiritual wellbeing of that marriage, and later on with your kids, then that is sin. That's how it is when you're the man. You must have your relationship with God in order first before anyone else, otherwise you cannot properly function as head.

Thats why me and my fiance work so well. Were together for life (insert vows here). I even told her as her boyfriend that by being my girlfriend I already am applying the vows as a promise to her, her family and to God. She found it extremnly romantic and agreed to do the same!

Cool man. Hope you two have a happy marriage.

 

[Armistead14]

Alright, well it doesn't look like anyone is going to go with my extreme black and white views. Consensus here is I am being legalistic. This may be a fair judgement on me, I don't know.

For what it's worth, I thought I'd post these from gotquestions dot org

Question: "What is an appropriate level of intimacy before marriage?"

Answer: Ephesians 5:3 tells us, “But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity...because these are improper for God's holy people.” Anything that even “hints” of sexual immorality is inappropriate for a Christian. The Bible does not give us a list of what qualifies as a “hint” or tell us what physical activities are approved for a couple to engage in before marriage. However, just because the Bible does not specifically address the issue does not mean God approves of “pre-sexual” activity before marriage. By essence, foreplay is designed to get one ready for sex. Logically then, foreplay should be restricted to married couples. Anything that can be considered foreplay should be avoided until marriage.

If there is any doubt whatsoever whether an activity is right for an unmarried couple, it should be avoided (Romans 14:23). Any and all sexual and pre-sexual activity should be restricted to married couples. An unmarried couple should avoid any activity that tempts them toward sex, that gives the appearance of immorality, or that could be considered foreplay. Many pastors and Christian counselors strongly advise a couple to not go beyond holding hands, hugging, and light kissing before marriage. The more a married couple has to share exclusively between themselves, the more special and unique the sexual relationship in that marriage becomes.


Question: "What does the Bible say about dating / courting?"

Answer: Although the words “courtship” and “dating” are not found in the Bible, we are given some principles that Christians are to go by during the time before marriage. The first is that we must separate from the world's view on dating because God's way contradicts the world's (2 Peter 2:20). While the world’s view may be to date around as much as we want, the important thing is to discover the character of a person before making any commitment to him or her. We should find out if the person has been born again in the Spirit of Christ (John 3:3-8) and if he or she shares the same desire toward Christ-likeness (Philippians 2:5). The ultimate goal of dating or courting is finding a life partner. The Bible tells us that, as Christians, we should not marry an unbeliever (2 Corinthians 6:14-15) because this would weaken our relationship with Christ and compromise our morals and standards.

When one is in a committed relationship, whether dating or courting, it is important to remember to love the Lord above all else (Matthew 10:37). To say or believe that another person is “everything” or the most important thing in one’s life is idolatry, which is sin (Galatians 5:20; Colossians 3:5). Also, we are not to defile our bodies by having premarital sex (1 Corinthians 6:9, 13; 2 Timothy 2:22). Sexual immorality is a sin not only against God but against our own bodies (1 Corinthians 6:18). It is important to love and honor others as we love ourselves (Romans 12:9-10), and this is certainly true for a courtship or dating relationship. Whether dating or courting, following these biblical principles is the best way to have a secure foundation for a marriage. It is one of the most important decisions we will ever make, because when two people marry, they cleave to one another and become one flesh in a relationship which God intended to be permanent and unbreakable (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5).
​

Ah, the problems do arise when we mistranslate scripture. The words or use of the phrase "Sexual immorality" is very confusing, because it can imply whatever denomination decides is immoral. The bible uses the greek word "inappropriate contentia" which was UNLAWFUL sexual acts, there was no gray area, the bible does list exactly what inappropriate contentia is.

1) Sex during women's menstruation.

2) Adultery

3) Pagan sex goddess prostitution.

4) Pederasty


Often bibles wrongly translate fornication, fornication was biblically only pagan prostitution, nothing to do with premarital sex. That of course doesn't make premarital sex right, because biblically the father owned the daughters virginity.

No where does the bible even suggest kissing, hugging, handholding, etc..are sin, those were not unlawful sexual acts. The bible doesn't claim premarial sex as sin, but that culture dealth with that with a list of laws and codes, that we certainly don't abide by today.

Basically you had unlawful acts and cultural codes that dealt with other issues. How would that apply today, depends on how you take all the advice then and apply it to todays culture, thus we have so much debate.

 

[peckaboo]

The way I see it, those are romantic things and romance is part of sex so therefore it also belongs in marriage. For example, you don't typically see a couple of Christian guys holding hands and having a romantic stroll on the beach; we consider that homosexual. Yet if a single guy and girl do that, we tolerate it as heterosexual... but it's still sexual when it shouldn't be that way yet, right?

Semi-blind post - I haven't read every post in the thread so don't know if this has already been mentioned, but holding hands isn't sexual in nature. It's a fairly recent Western societal construct that perceives two men holding hands as being homosexual. You see it in South Asia all the time and it doesn't cross anyone's mind for a second that the two men are anything other than friends. It's just like two femals (heterosexual) women in the West walking arm-in-arm; nothing sexual about it at all.

 

[doylerey]

You are applying scripture in an improper way. You cannot take a verse such as a "hint of sexual immorality" then apply your own interpretation of what that means. You say that anything the world does in dating, Christians should have no part in. Applying your logic then here is some of what could be said. You should not be on the internet you "sinner" because many people use it to look at inappropriate contentography. You are on the internet so you must be looking at inappropriate contentography. So no more internet for you so that you can remain "beyond reproach" and not have a "hint" of sexual immorality. Some people watch inappropriate content on tv so you should not watch tv. Some people "relieve their sexual urges" in the shower while they are alone. You should never take a shower alone. Some people talk dirty to each other or have phone sex so you should never talk to someone on the phone. Do I need to go on?

You cannot make sweeping rules for people simply because some people might fall into sin. Each person should desire to love God and love the person they are dating in a way that honors both God and the other person. I want to again remind you of the gospel! We are no longer under the law! Paul wrote time and time again to churches to stop letting people add rules they needed to follow to the gospel. This is exactly what you are doing. Let the Holy Spirit convict man of his sin and stop trying to do His job for Him!

I appreciate your desire to remain pure, but let me assure you, you are not pure because you stay away from things that may be considered sexual, you are pure because of the blood of the Lamb! Does this mean we shouldn't have boundaries, of course not. But each person must decide where those boundaries lie. I know some people who can't make-out because it will end up bad. They should refrain. The logic that Paul used to talk about the rules for eating and drinking apply here. If to you it is a sin, then you should not do it. But don't become a stumbling block for those who embrace their freedom. I can understand your desire for keeping things pure until marriage. So by all means, do so. But we are not to live 100% opposite of the world otherwise Jesus sinned. Did he not come and live like us humans? Did he not attend parties with sinners? Did he not eat and drink like us? He in fact was accused of being a drunkard. He wasn't but some people watched his way of living and accused him of it. We are not to live by the worlds standards and apply the same value on the things they value. We value God and surrender our lives to him. This gives us the freedom to live in the world with those who are living a life of destruction. This is why we are a light in the world. Our love, freedom, and life found in Christ is the aroma that spreads in a world of darkness and decay. Please do not try and make scriptures support your beliefs, instead let the scriptures become what you believe in. You don't need to add your own standards of what you think the Bible implies with Sexual Immorality. You know your heart and so does the Holy Spirit. So walk confidently in that and let the Holy Spirit lead others to the truth. You then can walk with others in their journey without worrying if they are getting it right. We are each living a process not a final product. You get to be a part of that process as you live out the gospel.

Mike
pastoradvice.com

 

[vortigen84]

You are applying scripture in an improper way. You cannot take a verse such as a "hint of sexual immorality" then apply your own interpretation of what that means. You say that anything the world does in dating, Christians should have no part in. Applying your logic then here is some of what could be said. You should not be on the internet you "sinner" because many people use it to look at inappropriate contentography. You are on the internet so you must be looking at inappropriate contentography. So no more internet for you so that you can remain "beyond reproach" and not have a "hint" of sexual immorality. Some people watch inappropriate content on tv so you should not watch tv. Some people "relieve their sexual urges" in the shower while they are alone. You should never take a shower alone. Some people talk dirty to each other or have phone sex so you should never talk to someone on the phone. Do I need to go on?

Well you could define what exactly constitutes sex, if premarital sex is a no-go.

I think if you do this you will understand where I'm coming from, and why I was addressing the idea of romance in the OP.

I am not trying to make up rules such as "thou shalt not touch a single female" or so on, as people here seem to presume I am. It all depends on context and purpose. I come from a large family, I have 5 sisters. If I give them a hug or hold their hand, that's not rude; that's just brotherly affection. But I don't flirt with or romance them because that's inappropriate. You can touch people for both reasons, can't you?

Well, the Bible says we are to treat our Christian brothers and sisters in all purity. It's not legalism to say that what's clean in marriage is dirty outside of it, or that romance belongs within marriage, because it does. The problem I have with a girlfriend/boyfriend -- as the concept is typically understood -- is that it creates an unbiblical category for premarital intimacy & romancing that should not exist outside of marriage. You will not find anything in the Bible about bfs/gfs or dating, and I think the levels of fornication we are seeing among Christians are linked to wrong social norms that we're practising.

You can be born again and make mistakes, which is what I think we're seeing. This does not mean Christian boys and girls cannot holds hands like brothers and sisters or whatever, but it does mean that they can't do it like husbands and wives would outside of a covenant context. I think if you want intimacy there needs to be a proposal.

You cannot make sweeping rules for people simply because some people might fall into sin.

No, but I'm trying to point out that there's a proper time and place for things.

I appreciate your desire to remain pure, but let me assure you, you are not pure because you stay away from things that may be considered sexual, you are pure because of the blood of the Lamb! Does this mean we shouldn't have boundaries, of course not. But each person must decide where those boundaries lie.

I don't think it's as subjective or relative as you suggest.

I know some people who can't make-out because it will end up bad.

How is making out appropriate at all for unmarried people in the first place? How is it brotherly / sisterly? How is it pure?

I question your presumption that it can go from good to bad. How far is too far? Is it when the pants come off? Or is it when the motive is no longer brotherly / sisterly affection but instead to act as lovers outside of marriage? In which case, why is making out OK in the first place? You tell me, I can't see how it is.

 

[vortigen84]

Semi-blind post - I haven't read every post in the thread so don't know if this has already been mentioned, but holding hands isn't sexual in nature.

I agree, and I wish people would read my OP and think before "correcting" me on ideas I don't hold to.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Yep exactly about the kissing, holding hands...etc before marriage. Theres nothing in the bible that calls it a sin. But using our own minds we know theres always a chance it "could" lead to it. I think especially in America we put fear into the younger people that they end up thinking they are sinning by kissing.

To often I've heard people ounger people say "I felt convicted when I kissed my boyfriend/girlfriend!". I ask them "Do you feel convivtion like its from God or do you feel guilt because people pressure you into thinkings kissing is bad?". Thats when they usually realize someone has been pounding it into their head that kissing is a sin. Of course I realize maybe sometimes people do feel convictions about kissing and thats up to them either way.