Is "dating" & "girlfriend/boyfriend" inappropriate?

[Itagaki]

See, this is why I wouldn't date a Christian any more... I can't help but read this and laugh. It's ridiculous.

Man, you would fit right in with this one chick I dated last year. She was a total prude and didn't believe in the "sin of holding hands, hugging or kissing" either. (At least, not until you're engaged.) As soon as I found that out, I broke up with her and have not heard from her since.

And we need to be more like the Muslims...? 'Kay. What are you suggesting, Christian women walking around in muslim body garbs? Deeply, deeply disturbing.

 

[seeingeyes]

If I want to be romantic with someone, I'll propose because as I see it that's what marriage is for. Otherwise I think I'm being unfair to that person and their feelings; how is it loving to lead a person on while you're not committed to them? It's unfair on people's feelings to do that. I've had that done to me, girl took off for someone else, was confusing and unpleasant because I was expecting a commitment despite none being made. You do not tell someone you love them and be affectionate with them unless you mean it, and if you mean it, you play for keeps: marriage.

This I think is very true despite kissing/handholding/etc. We shy away from commitment to each other, we keep our options open - not just in courting, but in friendship, in family, in professional circles, in all human interaction.

This is why our Lord had to tell us to let our 'yes' be 'yes' and our no be no. We are so busy looking out for our own interests, that we really can't be bothered to commit to someone else's interests. If the 10 commandments were given again today, God might send down a tablet that starts: I Am the Lord you God - quit playing the field!

I think a friendship should tell you enough about a person to know if you want a relationship with them or not. If it does not, then I think what you need is a deeper friendship, not a boyfriend or a girlfriend. There is intimacy you can have in friendship that is not romantic or sexual in nature, and I believe it should serve as foundation for a proposal of marriage if one is interested on building on it.

Yes... and no. Marriage is not a super-friendship. It is fundamentally a sexual relationship. When you meet two people who are married, you don't wonder whether or not they have had sex, do you? No, you assume that they have had sex, because sex is a cornerstone of marriage. (There may be exceptions to this rule, but the rule still stands.)

Now culturally, marriage used to be a different beast. Two people were arranged to be married because it was (financially) beneficial to the family. Those two committed to each other ...or else. They had to learn to put up with each other somehow, but it's not like this was the "good old days" of marriage. People have been stepping out on each other since the beginning of time.

Today, we don't have the same structure around marriage. We don't have parents choosing mates for their children for the benefit of the extended family. What we have are hormone driven adolescents who can't even fathom a lifetime, trying to pick a mate for a lifetime. Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. (Ever wonder why 90% of people who get married before the age of 20 get divorced shortly thereafter?)

Today, we are looking for a lover who will stick around forever. Kids who fall hopelessly in love with each other for the first time really do believe that they will be together always. But it almost never works out that way (because our hearts are hard). So we have people who are 20 years old whose hearts have already been trampled over and over (and they have already trampled others, too.)

Why shouldn't they be cynical about marriage? Why shouldn't they "try before they buy" when they know from experience that if they don't look out for number one, no one else will? And this cynicism in love only gets worse over time as they build up the walls around themselves, holding themselves emotionally apart from others in order to try them on like pairs of shoes, trying to see what "fits". Of course, nothing "fits" because we are all trying them on in the same way. We are all "just looking".

So you see, this mess that we are in as so much less to do with where we are putting our hands, than where we are putting our hearts.

Until we can truly love each other, this will never end. But no one wants to go first, because that guarantees getting hurt. So Jesus went first for us.

 

[doylerey]

Where are you getting your stats? Who says that 80% of Christians fornicate? What is your definition of fornication? You cannot make sweeping judgements based on unreliable stats or information. As for what I am going to do about it, I will continue to pour into the lives of the people God has placed around me. I will continue to encourage them to offer their bodies daily as a living sacrifice, holy (because of Jesus not because of their actions) and pleasing to the Lord. I also am involved with a group called the Samson Society, which helps Christian men who struggle in the area of lust. It is a fantastic resource. I also do pre-marital counseling that helps young couples stay pure and start their marriage off right. I also am involved in an anonymous advice website that gives Christians a place to talk about their struggles and get Godly advice.

I do not have to answer to you though, I stand firmly in Christ and him alone. Whatever I do, I only want God to test me and burn away what is not from him and is from my own strength. The answer to sin has always been the same no matter if it deals with "fornication" or greed or gossip. Reckoning the gospel in your life and surrendering to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. Some of this process requires the help of other brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why your judgement is so damaging to the process. If all Christians place judgements and criticisms on people who struggle in their flesh, then we never find the help we need to get better.

If holding hands, walking on the beach, kissing, going on dates is a sin, then those who indulge in it should be treated like every other sinner, with love, grace, and mercy. However, nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in the Bible are these things listed as a sin! So stop trying to label people as sinners, and start seeing them as God sees them, forgiven and righteous in Christ. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who lives but Christ in me. The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loves me and gave himself for me. I am a new creation, the old is gone, the new has come. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why have you decided to accuse those of dating as fornicating? Why have you chosen to ignore James when he says that mercy triumphs over judgement? Our focus should not be on flesh management but on the freedom and life in the Spirit. We do not live to fulfill the Law for it is for freedom that we have been set free! If you choose to "date" in a different way, then that is what you chose to do with your freedom. This again does not support a license to sin, but a license to live! Sanctification does not come as we defeat our flesh through our own strength. It comes as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds through the Spirit of God.

Dating is a great way to find out if two people want to spend the rest of your lives together. I have many friends who would not make good wives for me, but my wife is incredible. I trust that God will carry on his good work in me as he refines me and refines you. Please stop trying to label people as sinners and instead try to see them as God sees them, righteous and holy children of the King!

Mike,
pastoradvice.com

 

[ChrisHolland619]

You are absolutely kidding yourselves if you think all human contact between the opposite sex is sexual in nature. I huge my girlfriend and hold her hand, and guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

We feel that KISSING is a bit too far, as that is sexual. Kissing on the forehead, however, is not.

Do you kiss your mom on the cheek? Are you telling me you want to have sex with your mother because you kissed her on the forehead? Of coarse not. That kind of kiss is different than an open mouth kiss.

 

[aloou]

Yeah, maybe a bit.

But there's also a reason why the wedding night is traditionally considered a big event, right? That's where the consummation is ideally to take place. I think consummation is supposed to be more than just sex. Do Christians generally not understand the concept of foreplay? It's like we say "Foreplay before marriage is fine -- have a kiss -- but you better not go the whole way." That just seems absurd to me when I think about it. It's playing with fire; it's a tease. I'm virtually certain that's why we have 80% of Christians fornicating: wrong ideas & wrong attitudes.

But it also seems to me that we have Biblical ideals that we don't really believe can translate into real world practice.

Lots of good things to ponder, wiremi.white. It takes great strength and dedication to be so set apart in today's "dating" culture. I personally would strive to be 100% pure before my Lord and allow His grace to cover my inadequacies.

 

[Itagaki]

Where are you getting your stats? Who says that 80% of Christians fornicate? What is your definition of fornication? You cannot make sweeping judgements based on unreliable stats or information. As for what I am going to do about it, I will continue to pour into the lives of the people God has placed around me. I will continue to encourage them to offer their bodies daily as a living sacrifice, holy (because of Jesus not because of their actions) and pleasing to the Lord. I also am involved with a group called the Samson Society, which helps Christian men who struggle in the area of lust. It is a fantastic resource. I also do pre-marital counseling that helps young couples stay pure and start their marriage off right. I also am involved in an anonymous advice website that gives Christians a place to talk about their struggles and get Godly advice.

I do not have to answer to you though, I stand firmly in Christ and him alone. Whatever I do, I only want God to test me and burn away what is not from him and is from my own strength. The answer to sin has always been the same no matter if it deals with "fornication" or greed or gossip. Reckoning the gospel in your life and surrendering to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. Some of this process requires the help of other brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why your judgement is so damaging to the process. If all Christians place judgements and criticisms on people who struggle in their flesh, then we never find the help we need to get better.

If holding hands, walking on the beach, kissing, going on dates is a sin, then those who indulge in it should be treated like every other sinner, with love, grace, and mercy. However, nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in the Bible are these things listed as a sin! So stop trying to label people as sinners, and start seeing them as God sees them, forgiven and righteous in Christ. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who lives but Christ in me. The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loves me and gave himself for me. I am a new creation, the old is gone, the new has come. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why have you decided to accuse those of dating as fornicating? Why have you chosen to ignore James when he says that mercy triumphs over judgement? Our focus should not be on flesh management but on the freedom and life in the Spirit. We do not live to fulfill the Law for it is for freedom that we have been set free! If you choose to "date" in a different way, then that is what you chose to do with your freedom. This again does not support a license to sin, but a license to live! Sanctification does not come as we defeat our flesh through our own strength. It comes as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds through the Spirit of God.

Dating is a great way to find out if two people want to spend the rest of your lives together. I have many friends who would not make good wives for me, but my wife is incredible. I trust that God will carry on his good work in me as he refines me and refines you. Please stop trying to label people as sinners and instead try to see them as God sees them, righteous and holy children of the King!

Mike,
pastoradvice.com

This is a good post.

*likes it*

 

[aloou]

I do not have to answer to you though, I stand firmly in Christ and him alone. Whatever I do, I only want God to test me and burn away what is not from him and is from my own strength. The answer to sin has always been the same no matter if it deals with "fornication" or greed or gossip. Reckoning the gospel in your life and surrendering to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. Some of this process requires the help of other brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why your judgement is so damaging to the process. If all Christians place judgements and criticisms on people who struggle in their flesh, then we never find the help we need to get.


Mike,
pastoradvice.com

This is the travesty of so many Christians. They lack in bearing each other's burdens and seem to attack their wounded. Unbelievers don't need to see us competing in a self righteous rules battle. They need to see us helping, encouraging, and caring for each other so that they desperately want to be a part of Christ's family. Having said that the bible does say that we are to hold our brothers and sisters accountable which is where some people take the power far and start attacking their wounded.

 

[doylerey]

I agree completely that we need to share each other's burdens. Confess our sins to each other so that we may be healed. Encourage one another. Build one another up. Pray for each other. The idea of "accountability" in today's Christian culture has been one of judgement, shame, and conviction. This is not the call for Christian relationships. God is the judge, Satan is the accuser, and the Holy Spirit bring conviction. True Christian relationships walk through struggles together. We are to love each other as Christ loved us. Christ did not point out our sin and then say change. No, he pointed out our sin to show us that we can't change on our own, we need a Savior. He took on himself the task of bringing about change. This is the kind of love we are called to. God has always been working on our behalf in the ways we couldn't. When we begin to love each other in this way, taking on each other's burdens instead of simply pointing them out (or creating sin labels when there isn't necessarily sin), then we will be acting as the body of Christ.

 

[aloou]

I agree completely that we need to share each other's burdens. Confess our sins to each other so that we may be healed. Encourage one another. Build one another up. Pray for each other. The idea of "accountability" in today's Christian culture has been one of judgement, shame, and conviction. This is not the call for Christian relationships. God is the judge, Satan is the accuser, and the Holy Spirit bring conviction. True Christian relationships walk through struggles together. We are to love each other as Christ loved us. Christ did not point out our sin and then say change. No, he pointed out our sin to show us that we can't change on our own, we need a Savior. He took on himself the task of bringing about change. This is the kind of love we are called to. God has always been working on our behalf in the ways we couldn't. When we begin to love each other in this way, taking on each other's burdens instead of simply pointing them out (or creating sin labels when there isn't necessarily sin), then we will be acting as the body of Christ.

Yes. Praise God friend!

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Indeed wonderful post doylerey!

When my fiances older brother talked to me. He asked if I could prove that I loved his sister. I said I'd have to show him my heart. I also mentioned some mushy stuff of course. But most importantly I said I love and want to marry her, protect her, comfort her...etc because shes a Proverbs 31 women! True she has flaws like we all do. But shes perfect for me, more perfect then I imagined, but God knew what I needed ina woman.

I also pointed out alot of what your said about sharing each others burden...etc. Being with another christian in a marriage is about you becoming one, a strong unit, strong prayer team, a stronger helper, a stronger...well everything. You support each other. You learn from each other and grow together.

With my fiance you know what I think about usually? Well besides our first embrace when we meet, I also think of being in ministry together helping people! Then I think of other things like praying together, doing devotions together, making her breakfast in bed, snuggiling while watching a romantic movie...etc.

Sex is somewhere near the bottom of the list of things I think about (Er not that I think about it in a dirty way), although I do honestly love that I can have sex as a married man and not have to worry about sinning. I praise God for that. Because lets face it even the bible says we shall become one flesh! Sex is not a dirty word, its beautiful bonding thing that connects deeper then people realize.

The only more powerful bond a human has is feeling the love of Christ!

 

[vortigen84]

Yes... and no. Marriage is not a super-friendship. It is fundamentally a sexual relationship.

You can have dysfunctional marriages that that are both sexually active and inactive. It takes more than sex to define a marriage, so no, I must disagree.

Marriage is fundamentally a covenant relationship. It has a head -- the husband -- who is responsible for the well being of that relationship, which includes emotional and physical and spiritual care. That includes sex with the wife, but as part of the overall expression of a loving commitment in the first place.

Friendship is about love, but sex is just sex; whether it is an expression of love depends on the context.

When you meet two people who are married, you don't wonder whether or not they have had sex, do you? No, you assume that they have had sex, because sex is a cornerstone of marriage. (There may be exceptions to this rule, but the rule still stands.)

I do nonetheless see couples where I wonder if they are having sex. Have you ever seen a married couple that has two separate beds rather than a "marriage bed" ? I have, but whatever.

Now culturally, marriage used to be a different beast. Two people were arranged to be married because it was (financially) beneficial to the family. Those two committed to each other ...or else. They had to learn to put up with each other somehow, but it's not like this was the "good old days" of marriage. People have been stepping out on each other since the beginning of time.

Today, we don't have the same structure around marriage. We don't have parents choosing mates for their children for the benefit of the extended family. What we have are hormone driven adolescents who can't even fathom a lifetime, trying to pick a mate for a lifetime. Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. (Ever wonder why 90% of people who get married before the age of 20 get divorced shortly thereafter?)

I don't think it's the "hormone driven adolescents" that are the issue, as adults into their 20s and 30s are still making the same mistakes. It's unfair to pick on horny teenagers when it's not horny teenagers who have the divorce problems.

I think it's the overall naivety. For example, if guys aren't thinking in terms of covenant marriage, they'll look for a "girlfriend" instead as that is the cultural norm.

If a guy knows he can't get involved with her like that apart from marriage, then he's likely to muck around isn't he? If a guy tells a girl he likes or "loves" her, that girl should ask to see the ring. Otherwise, what's he doing?

People are not being taught properly about relationships. Parents throw off that responsibility to church and/or state, which alternately tells you not to have premarital sex and how to use a condom, it's confusing. That is not adequate education for sex and relationships. People then end up trying to figure it out for themselves, and that's why most Christians are like non-Christians in this regard. They fornicate, as the stats show.

Why shouldn't they be cynical about marriage? Why shouldn't they "try before they buy" when they know from experience that if they don't look out for number one, no one else will? And this cynicism in love only gets worse over time as they build up the walls around themselves, holding themselves emotionally apart from others in order to try them on like pairs of shoes, trying to see what "fits". Of course, nothing "fits" because we are all trying them on in the same way. We are all "just looking".

So you see, this mess that we are in as so much less to do with where we are putting our hands, than where we are putting our hearts.

Yeah but the way I see it, if you're a guy you don't get to touch her if she's not yours. If you're not her "head", then how is it that you get to play? It's not an issue of how far is appropriate but rather when.

Why is that so difficult to understand? People hear that, they think "No, that's chauvinism; women are not property." Wrong idea. The problem with a girlfriend/boyfriend is that it is a romantic / sexual relationship that is not covenantal. It's irresponsible.

Some might counter that romance is not sex, but then I will have to respond: are guys romantic with guys, or girls with girls? Isn't that gay?

Until we can truly love each other, this will never end. But no one wants to go first, because that guarantees getting hurt. So Jesus went first for us.

No, I don't accept that.

I believe we can repent and do better. I don't think we're following Biblical principles adequately, which is the problem.

 

[vortigen84]

You are absolutely kidding yourselves if you think all human contact between the opposite sex is sexual in nature.

I don't think that.

I held my grandmother's hand the other day when her husband died. That's not gross. I shake women's hands, I hug my friends occasionally. That's not what I'm talking about.

But what I'm talking about is having a girlfriend that you're romantic with. How is that a Biblical concept? I don't see it in the Bible, do you? What I see is a call to covenental relationship in marriage, or a viewing of your Christian women as sisters in all purity. Can you explain in your own words what covenant headship is all about, and how you have that covenant with your girlfriend?

People say "Well that was 2000 years ago." Yeah, and we're in the 21st century and people are still sinning. Look at the stats: fornication is the norm among Christians. Why is that?

 

[vortigen84]

See, this is why I wouldn't date a Christian any more... I can't help but read this and laugh. It's ridiculous.

Yet you often post here whining about how frustrated you are at being single, and have already made it plain that you disagree with some other Biblical ideas.

Go figure.

 

[vortigen84]

That's going way too far. If there was no romance first, how would anyone ever get married?

By proposing to someone you love.

Love being a commitment and not just a feeling. You can have a friendship with feelings for someone you have not "taken out", can't you? If you already know what the person is like from a friendship, why can't you go into a marriage? If your friendship doesn't give you enough information, then why can't you just establish a deeper friendship without inappropriate romantic affection?

Do you think I should see romance as part of sex? Maybe that is going too far, but at the same time do guys romance guys or girls romance girls? We consider that gay, so...?

I guess if the idea is no premarital sex, then "sex" needs to be adequately defined.

 

[seeingeyes]

You can have dysfunctional marriages that that are both sexually active and inactive. It takes more than sex to define a marriage, so no, I must disagree.

Marriage is fundamentally a covenant relationship. It has a head -- the husband -- who is responsible for the well being of that relationship, which includes emotional and physical and spiritual care. That includes sex with the wife, but as part of the overall expression of a loving commitment in the first place.

Friendship is about love, but sex is just sex; whether it is an expression of love depends on the context.

I never said that marriage = sex, I said that marriage is a sexual relationship. And it is. Sex is a fundamental part of the covenant.

I do nonetheless see couples where I wonder if they are having sex. Have you ever seen a married couple that has two separate beds rather than a "marriage bed" ? I have, but whatever.

Have you ever met a married couple and wondered if they had ever had sex? Of course not. No matter what kind of evil has befallen a marriage, 99.9% of the time, they started out doin' it. (Or expecting to anyway.)

I don't think it's the "hormone driven adolescents" that are the issue, as adults into their 20s and 30s are still making the same mistakes. It's unfair to pick on horny teenagers when it's not horny teenagers who have the divorce problems.

I think it's the overall naivety. For example, if guys aren't thinking in terms of covenant marriage, they'll look for a "girlfriend" instead as that is the cultural norm.

If a guy knows he can't get involved with her like that apart from marriage, then he's likely to muck around isn't he? If a guy tells a girl he likes or "loves" her, that girl should ask to see the ring. Otherwise, what's he doing?

I didn't mean to blame horny teenagers. (Kids these days! lol) I just meant that commitment is, in fact, our natural desire. When we love people we want them around forever and ever and ever. (Just listen to little kids talk about love and you'll see what I mean.)

But by the time we get to marriageable age we are already hurt by unloving relationships. Our hearts are already hardened by our parents' divorce, by broken friendships, by a string of "exes" or "crushes". We have learned to protect ourselves from others. We have learned to hedge our bets.

People are not being taught properly about relationships. Parents throw off that responsibility to church and/or state, which alternately tells you not to have premarital sex and how to use a condom, it's confusing. That is not adequate education for sex and relationships. People then end up trying to figure it out for themselves, and that's why most Christians are like non-Christians in this regard. They fornicate, as the stats show.

The parents don't know any better than the kids do. Relationships can't just be "taught" like geometry, they must be modeled. I can't just teach my kids to commit for a lifetime to their spouses while I'm stepping out on mine. And yet, this is what kids see about how we treat each other. Actions speak louder than words.

And actually loving someone for better or for worse for a whole lifetime is sooo much easier said than done.

Yeah but the way I see it, if you're a guy you don't get to touch her if she's not yours. If you're not her "head", then how is it that you get to play? It's not an issue of how far is appropriate but rather when.

Well, says who? If I have nothing going for me, and I'm lonely and I can get a willing date, why shouldn't I play?

That is why this is an issue of the heart. Until you bring in the God of grace who would even give up the life of His own son for the sake of His peons, you've got nothing but one more opinion in a sea of opinions. You've got nothing to offer but a bunch of extraneous rules. You are just one more guy who thinks he knows how the world should run. Dime a dozen.

God bless

 

[vortigen84]

Where are you getting your stats? Who says that 80% of Christians fornicate?

There's a link in the OP, have a look.

Who says that 80% of Christians fornicate? What is your definition of fornication? You cannot make sweeping judgements based on unreliable stats or information.

Nor can you dismiss them as unreliable out of prejudice, so...?

As for what I am going to do about it, I will continue to pour into the lives of the people God has placed around me. I will continue to encourage them to offer their bodies daily as a living sacrifice, holy (because of Jesus not because of their actions) and pleasing to the Lord.

Then teach the concept of covenant headship and how that applies to a boyfriend & girlfriend, if you can. I don't see how you can.

Marriage is the place for intimacy, because intimacy is to take place in the covenant context of marriage. Otherwise, Christian men and women are to consider each other as brother and sisters "in all purity." Wouldn't you agree?

I do not have to answer to you though, I stand firmly in Christ and him alone. Whatever I do, I only want God to test me and burn away what is not from him and is from my own strength. The answer to sin has always been the same no matter if it deals with "fornication" or greed or gossip. Reckoning the gospel in your life and surrendering to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life.

That should involve obedience to Biblical principles, yes?

If holding hands, walking on the beach, kissing, going on dates is a sin, then those who indulge in it should be treated like every other sinner, with love, grace, and mercy. However, nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in the Bible are these things listed as a sin! So stop trying to label people as sinners, and start seeing them as God sees them, forgiven and righteous in Christ.

They're not sins in and of themselves.

It depends on the context. What's clean in marriage is dirty outside of it.

Shouldn't those things take place in the context of a covenant marriage, rather than with this social construct we have of a girlfriend/boyfriend, where you can tell someone how you love them and hold them... and then later take off if you change your mind? I don't see how that is acceptable.

I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who lives but Christ in me. The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loves me and gave himself for me. I am a new creation, the old is gone, the new has come. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Sure.

Now comes sanctification.

Why have you decided to accuse those of dating as fornicating?

Because that is what it typically involves, and I don't see the concept of dating in the Bible. Do you?

Why have you chosen to ignore James when he says that mercy triumphs over judgement?

I haven't.

Stop asking loaded questions, please.

Our focus should not be on flesh management but on the freedom and life in the Spirit. We do not live to fulfill the Law for it is for freedom that we have been set free! If you choose to "date" in a different way, then that is what you chose to do with your freedom. This again does not support a license to sin, but a license to live! Sanctification does not come as we defeat our flesh through our own strength. It comes as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds through the Spirit of God.

Yes well it appears to me that despite all this freedom in Christ, fornication among Christians is still the norm.

Why is that?

Dating is a great way to find out if two people want to spend the rest of your lives together. I have many friends who would not make good wives for me, but my wife is incredible. I trust that God will carry on his good work in me as he refines me and refines you. Please stop trying to label people as sinners and instead try to see them as God sees them, righteous and holy children of the King!

Who am I labelling as sinners?

I am calling into question common practices that are not in the Bible and in my mind are linked to the high rates of fornication we are seeing. I think that's because we're following the ways of the world when we shouldn't be. I want you to persuade me otherwise.

 

[vortigen84]

Well, says who? If I have nothing going for me, and I'm lonely and I can get a willing date, why shouldn't I play?

Because the Bible says we are to consider our fellow Christians as brothers and sisters in all purity, doesn't it?

What does that mean?

That is why this is an issue of the heart. Until you bring in the God of grace who would even give up the life of His own son for the sake of His peons, you've got nothing but one more opinion in a sea of opinions. You've got nothing to offer but a bunch of extraneous rules. You are just one more guy who thinks he knows how the world should run. Dime a dozen.

Do you vote?

 

[GravyTrain2012]

I must ask you, at what point do a man and woman become "married" based on scripture?

 

[vortigen84]

I must ask you, at what point do a man and woman become "married" based on scripture?

When covenant headship is transferred from the girl's father to the man as her husband.

That is why the father gives his daughter in marriage. Very traditional.

 

[seeingeyes]

Because the Bible says we are to consider our fellow Christians as brothers and sisters in all purity, doesn't it?

What does that mean?

But the Bible does not equate handholding or kissing as "impure". You did that. And your particular views cannot be binding to "single Christians" as a whole. (And just so you know, I don't have a personal stake in this topic as I've been married my whole adult life, and I still actually like my husband, so I'm not looking to "skirt the rules" for some cheap thrills or anything.)

However, if you believe in your heart that such typical "dating" activity is impure, then you should by no means engage in it. For you, it is impure.

But you don't really need to convince the whole Christian community of your views. You only need to be on the same page with one person. One woman who desires your protection and headship and love in the same way you offer it. Just one.

Do you vote? Hypocrite.

I do vote. But only because I am old school and I believe that those who don't vote forfeit their right to complain. And I am a staunch supporter of the grand old American tradition of complaining about who's in charge.