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Is Contraception Destructive?

razeontherock

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In any case, I did not find anything supporting the idea that condom use actually increases hiv prevalence (especially with proper and consistent condom use). I found it noteworthy, that one of patricius' links mentioned cicumcision as an important prevention method, which, according to all I've read is much less effective than proper condom use.

Hey, YOU get circumcised and see how much immorality you'll be getting into for the next few weeks ...

Really ? He so did NOT claim circumcision would be effective against AIDS. Did he?
 
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razeontherock

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It is also 'possible' that the Pope is in reality a giant cephalopod, come from Neptune on a secret mission to teach all the good little boys and girls of Australia about the importance of flossing.

Baseless assertions are fun.

:) I rather enjoyed that one :) Think we can start a denomination based on that?
 
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razeontherock

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Im going to take a Calvinist approach on this one and say birth control is the will of God stopping babies who should not come into the world.

While I don't disagree with your major premise, and I'm no fan of Calvinism - I don't think you should pretend this represents it.
 
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MoonLancer

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While I don't disagree with your major premise, and I'm no fan of Calvinism - I don't think you should pretend this represents it.
I'm not a fan of Calvinism ether but i pretty sure i have not misrepresented it.
 
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BleedingHeart

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razeontherock

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"Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience."

U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

Atheists pwn. Can I get a terrorist fist jab up in here?

Not quite. From your article:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky."

You have to admit, this is the stereotypical nonsense you would expect to see. Why not factor in the fact that people in Church are more prone to getting married than atheists are? Why not recognize the social pressures that are pretty horrible reasons to get married, and their influence they have here?
 
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BleedingHeart

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Not quite. From your article:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky."

You have to admit, this is the stereotypical nonsense you would expect to see. Why not factor in the fact that people in Church are more prone to getting married than atheists are? Why not recognize the social pressures that are pretty horrible reasons to get married, and their influence they have here?

1. I don't necessarily agree with Barrier, since there is no rigid single standard for ethics in atheists.
2. You say Church goers are more prone to getting married. There any way you can back that up?
3. If there were social pressures to get married, wouldn't there be social pressures to stay married?
 
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MoonLancer

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Not quite. From your article:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky."

You have to admit, this is the stereotypical nonsense you would expect to see. Why not factor in the fact that people in Church are more prone to getting married than atheists are? Why not recognize the social pressures that are pretty horrible reasons to get married, and their influence they have here?

You mean like how un planned pregnancy puts pressure to marry, which ends up later in divorce? And how condoms can lower the divorce rate of Christians?

can you say fractually wrong?
 
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Jade Margery

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Not quite. From your article:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky."

Wow, way to quote mine. That was one of many quotes in the article belonging to both believers and non believers and was provided as commentary from members of the groups represented in the study, not as the opinions of the article writers themselves OR the people who actually did the research.

You have to admit, this is the stereotypical nonsense you would expect to see. Why not factor in the fact that people in Church are more prone to getting married than atheists are? Why not recognize the social pressures that are pretty horrible reasons to get married, and their influence they have here?

Like social pressures like those exerted by... their religion? I think that's the whole point.

At any rate, the linked study clearly proves that the earlier statement that atheists have statistically fewer divorces is true. There are certainly many factors that may or may not contribute to this, but isn't that the point? However you want to slice it, the differences in the beliefs and behaviors of the groups show a statistical significant difference, especially when atheists are compared to Bible Belt and fundamentalist christians.

This study measured divorce rates between different geographic areas and religious/non religious groups. Which is what you asked for. Proving you wrong. Try to take it gracefully, instead of attempting to paint an unbiased report confirmed by multiple sources and sets of data as 'stereotypical nonsense' by quote-mining.
 
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razeontherock

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2. You say Church goers are more prone to getting married. There any way you can back that up?

Statistics are good for only so much. What pressures exist for an atheist to get married? Whatever you can come up with, is already refuted in the study under discussion, via the observed trend ...

3. If there were social pressures to get married, wouldn't there be social pressures to stay married?

Horrible reasons to get married don't generally work out long-term.
 
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razeontherock

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You mean like how un planned pregnancy puts pressure to marry, which ends up later in divorce? And how condoms can lower the divorce rate of Christians?

can you say fractually wrong?

Perhaps fractionally wrong would be better? ^_^
 
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razeontherock

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Wow, way to quote mine. That was one of many quotes in the article belonging to both believers and non believers and was provided as commentary from members of the groups represented in the study, not as the opinions of the article writers themselves OR the people who actually did the research.

If it does not represent anything being posited here, defend that point. I think it's obvious you didn't because it can't be done.

Like social pressures like those exerted by... their religion?

No, not in the least. If you must think of Christianity as a religion, then
you should at least have the decency to point out that those closest to the leader concluded that it is better not to marry. Which would mean that said social pressures come not from the religion, but ... (wait for it) from society. A specific portion of society that atheists make a point of separating themselves from. And that specific portion of society doesn't generally do such a good job in this area, although there are exceptional congregations and leaders.

At any rate, the linked study clearly proves that the earlier statement that atheists have statistically fewer divorces is true. There are certainly many factors that may or may not contribute to this, but isn't that the point? However you want to slice it, the differences in the beliefs and behaviors of the groups show a statistical significant difference, especially when atheists are compared to Bible Belt and fundamentalist christians.

Among 384 individuals, yes. Please don't feign ignorance of "sample size" as a term; this study is a JOKE. Now you want to consider what they refer to as "fundamentalist?" ^_^
 
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Fenny the Fox

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Statistics are good for only so much. What pressures exist for an atheist to get married?

Do these mean nothing?
Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo
[Not so much just pressures, but positive force toward marriage for anyone.]

Social pressures, such as familial and peer pressure, are a large part of marriage for many people. As are the pressures of child rearing (no matter how you slice it, it can be easier to do if married - I know some will disagree, but I see nothing to say this is not true), can often come into play.

I doubt it is much different for Christian than for atheists, do you?
 
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Jade Margery

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Wow, way to quote mine. That was one of many quotes in the article belonging to both believers and non believers and was provided as commentary from members of the groups represented in the study, not as the opinions of the article writers themselves OR the people who actually did the research.

If it does not represent anything being posited here, defend that point. I think it's obvious you didn't because it can't be done.

I think it's obvious I didn't because it's irrelevant. What point am I supposed to be defending, exactly? Because my point was that you picked one small paragraph from an interview that didn't actually relate to the quality of the research or any of the people who conducted it, and then used that to dismiss said research.

Nice strawman, btw. You made up an opinion to attribute to me and then declared victory over it. I hope all that straw you're stuffing makes you itchy.


No, not in the least. If you must think of Christianity as a religion,

Please don't make me make a poll to see how many people on this board think of christianity as a religion. Meaning all of them except you, for some reason.

then
you should at least have the decency to point out that those closest to the leader concluded that it is better not to marry.
Which leader? There are a lot of leaders in christianity. Did Jesus say that somewhere?
Which would mean that said social pressures come not from the religion, but ... (wait for it) from society.
So their churches, their spiritual leaders, their holy holidays, and their ritualistic practices are not part of both religion and society? A religion isn't separate from the society it is found in. It's part of it.

A specific portion of society that atheists make a point of separating themselves from. And that specific portion of society doesn't generally do such a good job in this area, although there are exceptional congregations and leaders.
What exactly you mean by 'good job' or 'this area'? Vague wording just makes it look like you're flapping in the wind. Be specific.


Among 384 individuals, yes. Please don't feign ignorance of "sample size" as a term; this study is a JOKE. Now you want to consider what they refer to as "fundamentalist?" ^_^

You're missing a digit there, it was 3,854 individuals. Also, please don't feign ignorance of what 'margin of error' means, which was 2% for the study. (Although if you're getting numbers off by a factor of ten, maybe it isn't feigned?)

And if you'll read the rest of the article you might note that that study was confirming results found in previous studies, and also that looking at divorce statistics by area using U.S. census data (which has a much larger sample size, in case you were wondering) marks the bible belt states as those with the highest rates of divorce, eclipsed only by Nevada, where people go specifically to get divorced. The states with the lowest divorce rates are traditional 'blue' ones... Connecticut, Vermont, Maine.. basically the whole North East of the country.

And if you'd like to take a stab at the ulterior motives of the researchers, you might note that the man who organized the survey is an evangelical christian who, with great integrity, stood beside the data even when it proved something he didn't like.


You can twist and gnaw on this for as long as you like, but you're butting your head up against factual findings. There's no way to make them agree with you or discredit them.
 
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