Is Contraception Destructive?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

why is that? What the CC dislikes is the contraceptive mentality that has hurt a lot of people.

... and yet, what is the largest, most focal religious proponent of contraceptive sex in all the world? What is the only denomination in all the world to teach such right there at the parish hall? It may even require such instruction for all couples (at least getting married there)?


SO ironic.




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[boxes]

why is that? What the CC dislikes is the contraceptive mentality that has hurt a lot of people. The contraceptive mentality cheapens the sacred union between man and woman, cheapens and degrades procreation, objectifies ones partner as a sexual object and sex as just something for sexual pleasure. It also creates a mentality that says children are a problem and nuisance and creates an animosity towards the unborn and procreation in general. An attitude that children are a nuisance and a pest to ones life that must be suppressed by using contraception.

That's why many women who get abortions have used contraception. Since they have the contraceptive mentality that children are a pest and hindrance to their lives and thus they can justify killing their own children all the more when they are pregnant.

That is why adultery and illegitimacy rates rose so significantly. As many women on contraception eventually did get pregnant and because of their mentality they became abusive towards their own children and families. It also makes people more likely to commit adultery because they don't have to worry about their mistresses getting pregnant.

Hmm, I dont know anyone who thinks kids are pests and they have used contraception. This is a dramitization that distracts from the real life social reasons for contraception. Are there people that despise kids and go out and have affiars and one night stands, sure. But there are alot of people that benifit from contraception so they can time having a kid when they are emotionally and finanically ready for it while still being able to be intimate with their spouse/partner/etc.

It takes on average 22-23 year at a MINIMUM to get trained up in a skill that can bring in a living wage and thats if you are really smart and highly motivated. Most people cant afford what is nessicary for a kid until they are late 20's or 30 and there are alot of high sex drive years between. To suggest one shoudl be celibate until they are 30 is abusurd and your credibility will go down the toilet if you suggested it.

Sometimes its like the CC totally ignores reality. Just because there are people that do wrong things does not mean the pill is inherently sinful, its the going out and having the affiar that is sinful. This argument is like saying guns kill people instead of holding the shooter accountable.

 

[StThomasMore]

... and yet, what is the largest, most focal religious proponent of contraceptive sex in all the world? What is the only denomination in all the world to teach such right there at the parish hall? It may even require such instruction for all couples (at least getting married there)?


SO ironic.




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seems someone doesn't seem to understand the difference between periodic abstinence and artificial abortive contraception. All artificial contraception can be abortive, it can kill an unborn child that a mother may be unknowingly holding.

But what does that matter to most Lutherans who think contraception, divorce and abortion is ok? Where's your leadership on these moral issues?

 

[StThomasMore]

Hmm, I dont know anyone who thinks kids are pests and they have used contraception. This is a dramitization that distracts from the real life social reasons for contraception. Are there people that despise kids and go out and have affiars and one night stands, sure. But there are alot of people that benifit from contraception so they can time having a kid when they are emotionally and finanically ready for it while still being able to be intimate with their spouse/partner/etc.

It takes on average 22-23 year at a MINIMUM to get trained up in a skill that can bring in a living wage and thats if you are really smart and highly motivated. Most people cant afford what is nessicary for a kid until they are late 20's or 30 and there are alot of high sex drive years between. To suggest one shoudl be celibate until they are 30 is abusurd and your credibility will go down the toilet if you suggested it.

Sometimes its like the CC totally ignores reality. Just because there are people that do wrong things does not mean the pill is inherently sinful, its the going out and having the affiar that is sinful. This argument is like saying guns kill people instead of holding the shooter accountable.

And yet after contraception, young teenage girls had MORE unplanned and unprepared pregnancies than before. With your argument, it seems with all these young "well prepared" people who use contraception, that the illegitimacy rates and underage birth rates would be going down. Yet it is just the opposite. It seems you do not want to look at the trickle down effect contraception has caused. Just look at the stats, they don't lie. Couples that use contraception have 30% higher chance of divorce than the 3% compared to couples who don't use. Why do couples that use contraception have such a higher rate of marital failure?

"The illegitimacy rate for births among teenaged girls hovered around five to seven percent for decades, until about 1960. Between 1960 and 1970, it doubled as the birth control pill helped usher in the 'Sexual Revolution.' After 1970, the teenage illegitimacy rate literally exploded as comprehensive sex education programs and school-based clinics were introduced.
The overall illegitimacy rate for all children born in the United States was 5 percent in 1960. This rate has more than quintupled to more than 28%"

 

[boxes]

And yet after contraception, young teenage girls had MORE unplanned and unprepared pregnancies than before. With your argument, it seems with all these young "well prepared" people who use contraception, that the illegitimacy rates and underage birth rates would be going down. Yet it is just the opposite. It seems you do not want to look at the trickle down effect contraception has caused. Just look at the stats, they don't lie.

It does not matter, guns have made it more efficient to kill people but the gun itself is not evil its the people executing the crime. Just like the pill, the pill is not evil its the actions of having affairs and abortions.

The pill has very possitive effects for thoes that use it responsibly.

 

[StThomasMore]

It does not matter, guns have made it more efficient to kill people but the gun itself is not evil its the people executing the crime. Just like the pill, the pill is not evil its the actions of having affairs and abortions.

The pill has very possitive effects for thoes that use it responsibly.

Then why do couples who use contraception have a much higher rate of marital failure than those who do not? Couples who use contraception have a 50% divorce rate. Couples who abstain from contraception have only a 2% divorce rate. Could it be that couples who reject contraception are less likely to see children as a burden. Because of their generous spirit and self sacrifice. And because of that are less likely to treat their own marriages as a burden?

The mother who doesn't use contraception tends to have a generous spirit and a self sacrificing maternal nature toward her children. She views motherhood as a God given gift to her vocation as a woman. The mother who uses contraception tends to be more selfish and more centered around on her own ambitions and goals rather than the wellbeing of her children and family. The first is willing is sacrifice because of her charity, while the other will not because of worldly reasons and a centered attitude. Which woman do you think is going to be more successful in her marriage? One is humble and leaves it in God's hands, the other is stubborn and thinks she can do it all by herself for her own self.

Yea, I'm sure mustard gas and napalm are not evil by themselves either. But used they do no good for society. Contraception has done nothing good for society. Its just a product of the 60s sexual revolution like abortion and no-fault divorce that later crippled the moral backbone of society later on.

 

[boxes]

Then why do couples who use contraception have a much higher rate of marital failure than those who do not? Couples who use contraception have a 50% divorce rate. Couples who abstain from contraception have only a 2% divorce rate. Could it be that couples who reject contraception are less likely to see children as a burden. Because of their generous spirit and self sacrifice. And because of that are less likely to treat their own marriages as a burden?

The mother who doesn't use contraception tends to have a generous spirit and a self sacrificing maternal nature toward her children. She views motherhood as a God given gift to her vocation as a woman. The mother who uses contraception tends to be more selfish and more centered around on her own ambitions and goals rather than the wellbeing of her children and family. The first is willing is sacrifice because of her charity, while the other will not because of worldly reasons and a centered attitude. Which woman do you think is going to be more successful in her marriage? One is humble and leaves it in God's hands, the other is stubborn and thinks she can do it all by herself for her own self.

Yea, I'm sure mustard gas and napalm are not evil by themselves either. But used they do no good for society. Contraception has done nothing good for society. Its just a product of the 60s sexual revolution like abortion and no-fault divorce that later crippled the moral backbone of society later on.

I am not sure how valid that statistic is, how do they know who used contraception when they divorced, theres no way.

You talk about self sacrafice as if we dont even have a responsibility to provide a nice place to live, good food, etc thoes things are getting more and more expensive these days and you may be able to dodge that reality in an internet discussion but people living real life understand the need for a good education and a good job in order to have a reasonable measure of quality of life.

I am not sure if you noticed the economy but it is extremely cut throat to make a living wage without a hard skill these days and thoes skills are harder to build if you have to worry about a kid. People using contraception are not out buying mazaridies or porsches.

You cant totally dismiss reality and just tout some hauty ivory tower ideals, are you going to watch there kid while they have to work and go to school? Are you going to buy them a nice house to raise their family in and a nice car to get to work in, I dont think so, so they know they have to do thoes things on their own. Not everyone wants to have a mogedishu quality of life so they can make the catholic church happy.

I do agree with you on the destruction of no fault divorce and other social issues but I think contraception prevents rampant poverty. I sometimes think that some of the catholic churchs doctrine promotes poverty in a round about way and im not sure why they want every one poor, its like socialists and democrates. Money is not my God, but I dont like being cold and hungry and need privacy to be intimate with my wife and that takes money and to make good money takes skills and work, I dont know if thoes facts are lost on the catholic church. I dont like being miserable and I am pretty sure thats not a sin.

 

[BleedingHeart]

"What the CC dislikes is the contraceptive mentality that has hurt a lot of people. The contraceptive mentality cheapens the sacred union between man and woman, cheapens and degrades procreation, objectifies ones partner as a sexual object and sex as just something for sexual pleasure."

So if I use a condom that means I see my partner as just a sexual object? It doesn't mean that I will have my own child on my own terms and not on the terms of an idealized person that will do zilch when it comes to raising my child or taking care of my family?

"It also creates a mentality that says children are a problem and nuisance and creates an animosity towards the unborn and procreation in general. An attitude that children are a nuisance and a pest to ones life that must be suppressed by using contraception."

High on opinion. Low on fact. Sometimes they just don't want a kid right then. This is absolutely ridiculous. Personally, I DON'T like kids and DON'T plan to have any. But this is generally because I think kids are annoying, and a good number of them go out of their way to prove this too me, not because of the demonic influence of Trojans.

"Could it be that couples who reject contraception are less likely to see children as a burden. Because of their generous spirit and self sacrifice. And because of that are less likely to treat their own marriages as a burden?"
Well, in many cases, couples who are trying to have a baby have some type of economic security, so the child WOULD be less of a burden.

"Which woman do you think is going to be more successful in her marriage? One is humble and leaves it in God's hands, the other is stubborn and thinks she can do it all by herself for her own self?"
According to ReligiousTolerance.org the nonreligious have lower divorce rates.
U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

 

[Gishin]

seems someone doesn't seem to understand the difference between periodic abstinence and artificial abortive contraception. All artificial contraception can be abortive, it can kill an unborn child that a mother may be unknowingly holding.

Stop you're killing me.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

... and yet, what is the largest, most focal religious proponent of contraceptive sex in all the world? What is the only denomination in all the world to teach such right there at the parish hall? It may even require such instruction for all couples (at least getting married there)?


SO ironic.


.

But what does that matter to most Lutherans who think contraception, divorce and abortion is ok?

This thread is not about divorce or abortion - and such cannot be discussed here. What "most Lutherans" may or may not think is irrelevant to anything. Most probably believe the world is essentially round - that has nothing to do with this thread.


Yes, I think we all realize that, by far, the the largest religious promoter of contraceptive sex is The Roman Catholic denomination. It's also the only teacher of such known to me. That it is also opposed to contraceptive sex while being the world's largest religious promoter and on teacher of such is, IMO, as stated "so ironic."






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[Ar Cosc]

Then why do couples who use contraception have a much higher rate of marital failure than those who do not? Couples who use contraception have a 50% divorce rate. Couples who abstain from contraception have only a 2% divorce rate. Could it be that couples who reject contraception are less likely to see children as a burden. Because of their generous spirit and self sacrifice. And because of that are less likely to treat their own marriages as a burden?

I think it's more likely to be because couples who reject contraception are also likely to be religious zealots who also believe God will barbecue them until they're crispy if their marriage breaks down. If your statistic is true at all.

The mother who doesn't use contraception tends to have a generous spirit and a self sacrificing maternal nature toward her children. She views motherhood as a God given gift to her vocation as a woman. The mother who uses contraception tends to be more selfish and more centered around on her own ambitions and goals rather than the wellbeing of her children and family. The first is willing is sacrifice because of her charity, while the other will not because of worldly reasons and a centered attitude. Which woman do you think is going to be more successful in her marriage? One is humble and leaves it in God's hands, the other is stubborn and thinks she can do it all by herself for her own self.

Very nice story, but no basis in reality.

Yea, I'm sure mustard gas and napalm are not evil by themselves either. But used they do no good for society. Contraception has done nothing good for society. Its just a product of the 60s sexual revolution like abortion and no-fault divorce that later crippled the moral backbone of society later on.

Do you think the world would be a better place with hundreds of millions of extra mouths to feed?

 

[Belk]

Then why do couples who use contraception have a much higher rate of marital failure than those who do not? Couples who use contraception have a 50% divorce rate. Couples who abstain from contraception have only a 2% divorce rate. Could it be that couples who reject contraception are less likely to see children as a burden. Because of their generous spirit and self sacrifice. And because of that are less likely to treat their own marriages as a burden?

The mother who doesn't use contraception tends to have a generous spirit and a self sacrificing maternal nature toward her children. She views motherhood as a God given gift to her vocation as a woman. The mother who uses contraception tends to be more selfish and more centered around on her own ambitions and goals rather than the wellbeing of her children and family. The first is willing is sacrifice because of her charity, while the other will not because of worldly reasons and a centered attitude. Which woman do you think is going to be more successful in her marriage? One is humble and leaves it in God's hands, the other is stubborn and thinks she can do it all by herself for her own self.

Yea, I'm sure mustard gas and napalm are not evil by themselves either. But used they do no good for society. Contraception has done nothing good for society. Its just a product of the 60s sexual revolution like abortion and no-fault divorce that later crippled the moral backbone of society later on.

Got a citation for that one?

 

[BleedingHeart]

I think it's more likely to be because couples who reject contraception are also likely to be religious loons who also believe God will barbecue them until they're crispy if their marriage breaks down.

Cosc: Edit the loon out of the posts before the mods come get you.

 

[Gishin]

Got a citation for that one?

Blatant Lies - Television Tropes & Idioms

 

[Ar Cosc]

Gishin, I'd like to sincerely thank you for linking to TV Tropes. I've wasted most of my afternoon testing the very limits of tabbed browsing. Again!

 

[Gishin]

Any time.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Gishin, I'd like to sincerely thank you for linking to TV Tropes. I've wasted most of my afternoon testing the very limits of tabbed browsing. Again!

You too?

 

[boxes]

I think it's more likely to be because couples who reject contraception are also likely to be religious zealots who also believe God will barbecue them until they're crispy if their marriage breaks down. If your statistic is true at all.

Very nice story, but no basis in reality.

Do you think the world would be a better place with hundreds of millions of extra mouths to feed?

The thing is they wouldent be fed, alot of them would be starving to death but then that gives more power to the catholic church, people that have options are less likely to subcomb to zealotry.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Got a citation for that one?

I think, he's getting it from a Natural Family Planning "study", which was countered pretty well here:
contraception - Natural family planning and divorce rates - Skeptics - Stack Exchange

Like the NFP people, Thomas has the numbers but only uses the most subjective arguments as to why they are there, rejecting any demographic or psycho-graphic factors EXCEPT that a person who used contraceptives was selfish and stubborn and saw their partner as a sex object or any number of ridiculous accusations. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

 

[patricius79]

I don't think you know what a strawman is. .

a strawman is a mispresentation of another's argument

e.g. saying that people who believe contraception is wrong blame a piece of rubber for their problem

which is like saying that someone who said theirr marriage was seriously harmed by credit card debt is blaming a piece of plastic