Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

This is what Jesus says. "Whoever believes has eternal life". He does not say "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". If you choose to believe, it's because you don't believe.

BINGO.
Believing is a change of mind.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nobody can perceive Christ or hear the gospel at a spiritual level unless born again.

If they were ALREADY born again why do they need to do the work to HEAR or the work to HAPPEN to believe?

 

[Saint Steven]

Receiving by an act of the will turns the gospel into law ans grace into works. Receiving as you receive a pat on the back retains the gospel of grace.

How does "receiving" turn grace into works?

 

[Dave L]

If they were ALREADY born again why do they need to do the work to HEAR or the work to HAPPEN to believe?

The gospel saves in more ways than one. Imbeciles who cannot hear the gospel, even people in lands beyond the reach of the gospel, infants, etc., can be born again and go to heaven, if Christ paid for their sins on the cross.

 

[Dave L]

How does "receiving" turn grace into works?

If it is an act of the will, you save yourself and the gospel becomes law.

 

[Saint Steven]

The gospel saves in more ways than one. Imbeciles who cannot hear the gospel, even people in lands beyond the reach of the gospel, infants, etc., can be born again and go to heaven, if Christ paid for their sins on the cross.

Christ paid for EVERYONE'S sins on the cross. Is the whole world saved?
Or do we need to do something? ("happen" to believe)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Dave L]

Christ paid for EVERYONE'S sins on the cross. Is the whole world saved?
Or do we need to do something? ("happen" to believe)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus died for all and sin, why aren't all saved? = He didn't save anyone. They must save themselves.

 

[Saint Steven]

If it is an act of the will, you save yourself and the gospel becomes law.

But if I "happened" to believe (oops) then grace is not "works"?

 

[RDKirk]

Those are great points.

What is the purpose of evangelism if God has already elected those he wants?

That question has answers, even in a Calvinistic universe.

And what does that say about the others? Created to suffer for all eternity?

I don't think Paul had any intention of creating a theology like that. That kind of idea comes from cloistered theologians, not evangelists out in the field.

 

[Dave L]

But if I "happened" to believe (oops) then grace is not "works"?

If you believe what you are hearing as the gospel is preached, it means you are born again. If you must choose to believe, you are not born again but are forcing the flesh to believe against its will.

 

[Saint Steven]

If Jesus died for all and sin, why aren't all saved? = He didn't save anyone. They must save themselves.

Well, which is it?
Did Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, or only ours? Read the verse.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Dave L]

Well, which is it?
Did Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, or only ours? Read the verse.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Whole world = gentiles, not just Jews.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you believe what you are hearing as the gospel is preached, it means you are born again. If you must choose to believe, you are not born again but are forcing the flesh to believe against its will.

A person under conviction has a choice to make.
What you call salvation by works.

 

[Saint Steven]

Whole world = gentiles, not just Jews.

Right that would be EVERYONE. Is everyone saved then?
Or does it only apply to those who will "happen" to believe? (the work)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Dave L]

A person under conviction has a choice to make.
What you call salvation by works.

Choice under conviction = born again or else they would not be convicted. And choosing to repent and be baptized turns the new birth into the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not sure. Good idea though.

I wonder if predestination has nothing to do with salvation. Re-read scripture below.

The key scripture says we were "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son".
And that God "foreknew", which means he knew the outcome before it happened.

Nothing to say that this whole thing is NOT in reference to a process that takes place after a decision is made. Those of us who believe have been "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son". Can it not be stated that way?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I think this could possibly take place after our death. Who is still living that can honestly say they have already been confirmed to the image of Christ? I don’t think there’s a single person on earth that make such a claim.

 

[Dave L]

Right that would be EVERYONE. Is everyone saved then?
Or does it only apply to those who will "happen" to believe? (the work)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Were all Jews saved when Jesus said salvation is only of the Jews?

 

[Saint Steven]

Choice under conviction = born again or else they would not be convicted. And choosing to repent and be baptized turns the new birth into the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Inside out, upside down, and backwards. Cart before the horse and horse in the cart. What a mess.

 

[Dave L]

Inside out, upside down, and backwards. Cart before the horse and horse in the cart. What a mess.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Saint Steven]

I think this could possibly take place after our death. Who is still living that can honestly say they have already been confirmed to the image of Christ? I don’t think there’s a single person on earth that make such a claim.

Conformed is a process.
And I agree, it will not be complete until after we are done here.