Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[BNR32FAN]

They did not want the Christ of the bible to save them. Most hate him. They wanted salvation on their terms.

I think that is an assumption brother. We can’t determ their motives from the information given in the scriptures. Keep in mind even Jesus’ faithful 11 apostles were warned of the consequences of failing to abide and produce fruit. The consequences which resulted in loss of salvation. These men were specifically chosen by Jesus Himself and yet they were not exempt from the consequences.

 

[Dave L]

I think that is an assumption brother. We can’t determ their motives from the information given in the scriptures. Keep in mind even Jesus’ faithful 11 apostles were warned of the consequences of failing to abide and produce fruit. The consequences which resulted in loss of salvation. These men were specifically chosen by Jesus Himself and yet they were not exempt from the consequences.

If you hate Christ how can you worship him. Did the apostles hate him other than Judas?

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's look at this. There are only 3 possibilities on how God saves people. Only one can be true.

1) God alone saves people by grace, works follow because of the new nature.

2) People save themselves with God's help, by grace and works (obedience).

3) People alone save themselves by works (obedience).

I reject the three choices you have listed here.

It seems you are trying to make a point against Arminianism with point two.
Inferring that the Arminian is trying to "save themselves" when that is not what is happening. Receiving the gift of salvation is not a "work" that earns it. Salvation is still a gift. Receiving it does not make salvation earned by the effort.

In reality there are two choices.
1) Grace
2) Works
Choice number two doesn't work.
Admittedly some try to create a third choice, grace plus works = salvation.
I disagree but they have a right to their opinion and I consider those saved by grace to be saved, whether they want to add works or not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you hate Christ how can you worship him. Did the apostles hate him other than Judas?

I don’t know where hate came into the conversation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I reject the three choices you have listed here.

It seems you are trying to make a point against Arminianism with point two.
Inferring that the Arminian is trying to "save themselves" when that is not what is happening. Receiving the gift of salvation is not a "work" that earns it. Salvation is still a gift. Receiving it does not make salvation earned by the effort.

In reality there are two choices.
1) Grace
2) Works
Choice number two doesn't work.
Admittedly some try to create a third choice, grace plus works = salvation.
I disagree but they have a right to their opinion and I consider those saved by grace to be saved, whether they want to add works or not.

Actually, we have a spectrum here with absolute monergism at one end and absolute synergism at the other. Virtually all Christians are between these two extremes. It is really not at all comfortable to see things not as either/or or black and white.

 

[Dave L]

I don’t know where hate came into the conversation.

What we are talking about is the hatred some have for Christ as presented by the Calvinists.

 

[Dave L]

I reject the three choices you have listed here.

It seems you are trying to make a point against Arminianism with point two.
Inferring that the Arminian is trying to "save themselves" when that is not what is happening. Receiving the gift of salvation is not a "work" that earns it. Salvation is still a gift. Receiving it does not make salvation earned by the effort.

In reality there are two choices.
1) Grace
2) Works
Choice number two doesn't work.
Admittedly some try to create a third choice, grace plus works = salvation.
I disagree but they have a right to their opinion and I consider those saved by grace to be saved, whether they want to add works or not.

# 2 is actually #3 with a smoke screen.

 

[Saint Steven]

What we are talking about is the hatred some have for Christ as presented by the Calvinists.

Nice to see you backing away from this position.
First it was "hatred". Then "many". Now "some".

 

[Dave L]

Nice to see you backing away from this position.
First it was "hatred". Then "many". Now "some".

All are true. Not backing away. Is it true you hate God as presented by Calvinism?

 

[Saint Steven]

# 2 is actually #3 with a smoke screen.

I agree that there are really only two choices.
Can you state it that way?

 

[Dave L]

I agree that there are really only two choices.
Can you state it that way?

People do not realize that only 2 positions exist. They think their grace/works position is an alternative.

 

[Saint Steven]

All are true. Not backing away. Is it true you hate God as presented by Calvinism?

That's a loaded question. What right do Calvinists have to make determinations about whether Christians hate/love God? And then you ask me if it is true. Seriously?

Why would an opinion about how God called us determine whether we love or hate Him?
If God elected you, you are the elect. You are claiming that some of the elect actually hate God. And you are happy to aim that gun at me. What's wrong with this picture?

Calvinism and Arminianism are two ends of a centuries-old doctrinal debate about election. And while it might be appropriate for either camp to feel strongly about their position, it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for either to make judgments about those who are either ignorant of their claims, or in disagreement.

 

[Saint Steven]

People do not realize that only 2 positions exist. They think their grace/works position is an alternative.

Receiving Christ is NOT salvation by works. That's ridiculous.

Colossians 2:6-7
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

 

[Dave L]

Receiving Christ is NOT salvation by works. That's ridiculous.

Receiving as in "act of the will" = gospel becomes law and grace becomes works. Receiving, as you would a pat on the back = grace.

 

[Dave L]

That's a loaded question. What right do Calvinists have to make determinations about whether Christians hate/love God? And then you ask me if it is true. Seriously?

Why would an opinion about how God called us determine whether we love or hate Him?
If God elected you, you are the elect. You are claiming that some of the elect actually hate God. And you are happy to aim that gun at me. What's wrong with this picture?

Calvinism and Arminianism are two ends of a centuries-old doctrinal debate about election. And while it might be appropriate for either camp to feel strongly about their position, it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for either to make judgments about those who are either ignorant of their claims, or in disagreement.

If the Calvinist are right about God, you hate him. It's that simple.

 

[Saint Steven]

Receiving as in "act of the will" = gospel becomes law and grace becomes works. Receiving, as you would a pat on the back = grace.

How can you claim to be saved if it was against your free will?
Sounds like a hostage situation with the ransom on the wrong end.
Backwards again.

I'm trying to imagine the phone conversation with the kidnapper. lol
"We're holding the hostage until your demands are met. How much do we owe you?"

 

[Saint Steven]

If the Calvinist are right about God, you hate him. It's that simple.

I do not hate God, therefore the Calvinists are wrong. It's that simple.

Something is very wrong with Calvinism to make such claims.

 

[Dave L]

I do not hate God, therefore the Calvinists are wrong. It's that simple.

But you hate God if they are right?

 

[Saint Steven]

But you hate God if they are right?

Where did they say that I hate God? (slander)

 

[Dave L]

Where did they say that I hate God? (slander)

You did not. But if the Calvinists are right about God, you hate him. It's that simple.