Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

You did not. But if the Calvinists are right about God, you hate him. It's that simple.

If in order to make the argument for a doctrinal position, one side has to resort to claiming their opponents hate God, then they have lost the argument. It's that simple.

 

[Dave L]

If in order to make the argument for a doctrinal position, one side has to resort to claiming their opponents hate God, then they have lost the argument. It's that simple.

Not so. It means one side loves their idol, and the other loves God. It's either or. There are only two positions. Works or grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not so. It means one side loves their idol, and the other loves God. It's either or. There are only two positions. Works or grace.

That's ridiculous. You are calling receiving Christ salvation by works. (and not grace) And accusing of idolatry and hating God. A very bad thing to be involved with.

 

[NBB]

Not so. It means one side loves their idol, and the other loves God. It's either or. There are only two positions. Works or grace.

Loving God i think has nothing to do with being calvinist or arminian.
Both positions can be held by true christians i think, some maybe wrong of course but what you do is taking things too far.

Not everyone has all the answers you know, christians try to follow Jesus and maybe try to get closer to God the best they can, but there is always some things subject to different interpretations and that we don't know 100 percent if it is some way or the other.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All are true. Not backing away. Is it true you hate God as presented by Calvinism?

I believe they are referring to John 3:20.

 

[JAL]

Not so. It means one side loves their idol, and the other loves God. It's either or. There are only two positions. Works or grace.

I take Paul very literally. As a result, I agree with the Calvinists that Arminianism tends to water down the force of his statements. I agree with Calvinists, therefore:
(1) That regeneration is monergistic.
(2) That God predestined a specific, designated set of individuals (a foreknown and limited number of individuals) termed 'the elect'.

The PROBLEM is that Calvin assumed he was seeing the whole picture (oh the fallibility of exegesis!). He should have REALLY taken to heart Paul's words that God's ways are 'past finding out' (Rom 11).

Calvin MUST have been overlooking SOMETHING (I'd tell you what it is but I don't think you'd listen), because Paul, in some places, spoke as though ANYONE could be saved. For example he wrote:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some" (1Cor 9).

He even seemed to express a note of contingency/uncertainty regarding the salvation of the elect:

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory" (2 Tim 2:10).

Do you hear the concern in Paul's voice? The anguish? I do. To paraphrase what Paul just said, "I work EXTRA HARD to make sure that the elect obtain salvation."

If by any chance your Calvinism stifles intercession for the lost - if you assume that you can have no effect on the number of people who actually get saved - I suggest you start interceding. Otherwise I PROMISE you that, on judgment day, you'll feel a lot of remorse and regret for having ASSUMED what Calvin had no right to assume.

 

[Saint Steven]

I take Paul very literally. As a result, I agree with the Calvinists that Arminianism tends to water down the force of his statements. I agree with Calvinists, therefore:
(1) That regeneration is monergistic.
(2) That God predestined a specific, designated set of individuals (a foreknown and limited number of individuals) termed 'the elect'.

The PROBLEM is that Calvin assumed he was seeing the whole picture (oh the fallibility of exegesis!). He should have REALLY taken to heart Paul's words that God's ways are 'past finding out' (Rom 11).

Calvin MUST have been overlooking SOMETHING (I'd tell you what it is but I don't think you'd listen), because Paul, in some places, spoke as though ANYONE could be saved. For example he wrote:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some" (1Cor 9).

He even seemed to express a note of contingency/uncertainty regarding the salvation of the elect:

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory" (2 Tim 2:10).

Do you hear the concern in Paul's voice? The anguish? I do. To paraphrase what Paul just said, "I work EXTRA HARD to make sure that the elect obtain salvation."

If by any chance your Calvinism stifles intercession for the lost - if you assume that you can have no effect on the number of people who actually get saved - I suggest you start interceding. Otherwise I PROMISE you that, on judgment day, you'll feel a lot of remorse and regret for having ASSUMED what Calvin had no right to assume.

Those are great points.

What is the purpose of evangelism if God has already elected those he wants?
And what does that say about the others? Created to suffer for all eternity?

Did not God love the whole world when he gave his one and only?
Was it not for - whoever - believes? (anyone that chooses to)

Does everyone respond positively to the wooing of the Holy Spirit?
Is there not a partnership in the meeting of lost soul and God?
Does God elect his own against their will?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe they are referring to John 3:20.

Not sure. Good idea though.

I wonder if predestination has nothing to do with salvation. Re-read scripture below.

The key scripture says we were "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son".
And that God "foreknew", which means he knew the outcome before it happened.

Nothing to say that this whole thing is NOT in reference to a process that takes place after a decision is made. Those of us who believe have been "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son". Can it not be stated that way?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[Dave L]

Loving God i think has nothing to do with being calvinist or arminian.
Both positions can be held by true christians i think, some maybe wrong of course but what you do is taking things too far.

Not everyone has all the answers you know, christians try to follow Jesus and maybe try to get closer to God the best they can, but there is always some things subject to different interpretations and that we don't know 100 percent if it is some way or the other.

Calvinism and Arminianism present two different Christs. Two different Christianities, two different means of salvation and so on.

 

[Dave L]

That's ridiculous. You are calling receiving Christ salvation by works. (and not grace) And accusing of idolatry and hating God. A very bad thing to be involved with.

Receiving by an act of the will turns the gospel into law ans grace into works. Receiving as you receive a pat on the back retains the gospel of grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Calvinism and Arminianism present two different Christs. Two different Christianities, two different means of salvation and so on.

Two sides of the same coin...

 

[Dave L]

Two sides of the same coin...

Not really. Grace is not works visa versa.

 

[Saint Steven]

Receiving by an act of the will turns the gospel into law ans grace into works. Receiving as you receive a pat on the back retains the gospel of grace.

How does "receiving" turn the gospel into law?

 

[Dave L]

How does "receiving" turn the gospel into law?

If salvation is conditional, the gospel becomes a law to obey rather than the good news announcing salvation to all who happen to believe what they hear.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really. Grace is not works visa versa.

Receiving is not works either.
Salvation is not - earned - by receiving it.
Not the - wage - paid for the "work" of receiving.

 

[Dave L]

Receiving is not works either.
Salvation is not - earned - by receiving it.
Not the - wage - paid for the "work" of receiving.

You save yourself at Christ's expense and rob God of his glory if salvation is based on meeting conditions.

 

[Saint Steven]

If salvation is conditional, the gospel becomes a law to obey rather than the good news announcing salvation to all who happen to believe what they hear.

Happen?
Those who "happen to believe"?
You make salvation a "happen"stance. lol
"I heard a sermon and I happened to believe. Not sure why."

 

[Dave L]

Happen?
Those who "happen to believe"?
You make salvation a "happen"stance. lol
"I heard a sermon and I happened to believe. Not sure why."

This is what Jesus says. "Whoever believes has eternal life". He does not say "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". If you choose to believe, it's because you don't believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

You save yourself at Christ's expense and rob God of his glory if salvation is based on meeting conditions.

But aren't they REQUIRED to hear? So they can HAPPEN to believe.
It was a lot of "work" getting to that meeting. The traffic was terrible.

 

[Dave L]

But aren't they REQUIRED to hear? So they can HAPPEN to believe.
It was a lot of "work" getting to that meeting. The traffic was terrible.

Nobody can perceive Christ or hear the gospel at a spiritual level unless born again.