Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Dave L]

Maybe you're not following me. I am asking you to try to understand YOUR experience.

Do you have a personal relationship with the Father? If you try to tell me that all you have is a 2,000 year old book, I will ask, how is that personal? And why does the NT speak of fellowship with the Holy Spirit?

Once you agree that it is personal, and I hope you will, can it be defined without loudness? You can reply, 'Ok I have no theory. I'm lost here' - but if you do so, shouldn't you be cautious about lampooning MY theory? At least I have one. And take a look at Romans 8:
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children."

That sounds like a personal relationship to me. Strikes me as clear case of loudness. If you disagree, explain that passage to me, in clear terms, without reference to loudness.

I come from a Pentecostal background. So I speak from experience. I did not grow spiritually until I broke away from Pentecostalism and began learning from mainline churches.

 

[W2L]

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

 

[W2L]

That's funny. You haven't even told us why you believe the Bible is inspired. 600 posts deep. As expected, of course.

His sheep know His voice

 

[JAL]

I come from a Pentecostal background. So I speak from experience. I did not grow spiritually until I broke away from Pentecostalism and began learning from mainline churches.

Where did I ask you about your Pentecostal background? I asked you simple questions.

For starters, do you, or don't you have a personal relationship with the Father? And if so, how can it be defined without recourse to loudness?

With you and Albion, seems it's always the same thing. You won't expose your own beliefs, to avoid conceding contradiction.

 

[JAL]

His sheep know His voice

Precisely. Thank you.

And when I try to plumb the meaning of that claim, it leads me to speak of conscience (post 273). Whether or not you agree, at least we agree that we know the truth by His voice.

 

[W2L]

Precisely. Thank you.

And when I try to plumb the meaning of that claim, it leads me to speak of conscience (post 273). Whether or not you agree, at least we agree that we know the truth by His voice.

Why wouldnt i? Its written. I love the Lord.

 

[NBB]

I come from a Pentecostal background. So I speak from experience. I did not grow spiritually until I broke away from Pentecostalism and began learning from mainline churches.

Maybe you had a bad experience in a pentecostal church, but i don't understand why you would take it so far as call all pentecostal churches a 'sect'.

 

[Saint Steven]

Today? yes.

I'll have to say...
We have hit an all-time low in this discussion.
Although, given your position, it would be an obvious (and honest) conclusion.
Declaring the prophets of today to be psychotic.

Where do you draw the line? Prophecy is actually a broadly related group of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, that includes spiritual discernment. Let's look at the list and see what you are so quick to toss out. Six out of nine gifts.

- a message of wisdom
- a message of knowledge
- prophecy
- prophetic tongues
- interpretation of prophetic tongues
- distinguishing between spirits

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[JAL]

So do you hear more than one person (yourself) speaking in your head?

I'm not a prophet, but all of us should aspire to it (1Cor 14:1). So if you're asking whether God speaks to me in clear English, like He spoke to Moses, it's never happened to me. The closest I've come to such is the experience described at post 321, but even that was through a minister.

Loudness is broader than English, if you read the posts that I referred you to earlier. Fellowship between two parties is any mutual exchange of sensations more or less distinct (loud and clear).

Let's consider an example. You're sitting in church. The worship/singing begins. Suddenly you seem to feel the joy of the Lord. You feel convinced (and you're probably correct) that someone (God) is creating a SENSATOIN within you, more or less distinct (loud and clear). The loudness can vary. No one in our generation seems to have any clue on how intense (loud) joy can be, having not lived through a revival.

It might be feelings of love, joy, peace ANYTHING from the Father counts as loudness. You can't limit it to one type of sensation (God speaking English).

Does that clarify what is a personal relationship with the Father?

 

[Dave L]

Maybe you had a bad experience in a pentecostal church, but i don't understand why you would take it so far as call all pentecostal churches a 'sect'.

The are a divisive sect. If they were not, would have remained mainline.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not a prophet, but all of us should aspire to it (1Cor 14:1). So if you're asking where God speaks to me in clear English, like He spoke to Moses, it's never happened to me. The closest I've come to such is the experience described at post 321, but even that was through a minister.

Loudness is broader than English, if you read the posts that I referred you to earlier. Fellowship between two parties is any mutual exchange of sensations more or less distinct (loud and clear).

Let's consider an example. You're sitting in church. The worship/singing begins. Suddenly you seem to feel the joy of the Lord. You feel convinced (and you're probably correct) that someone (God) is creating a SENSATOIN within you, more or less distinct (loud and clear). The loudness can vary. No one in our generation seems to have any clue on how intense (loud) joy can be, having not lived through a revival.

It might be feelings of love, joy, peace ANYTHING from the Father counts as loudness. You can't limit it to one type of sensation (God speaking English).

Does that clarify what is a personal relationship with the Father?

JWs "love God" just as you do. There's more to it than that.

 

[Dave L]

I'll have to say...
We have hit an all-time low in this discussion.
Although, given your position, it would be an obvious (and honest) conclusion.
Declaring the prophets of today to be psychotic.

Where do you draw the line? Prophecy is actually a broadly related group of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, that includes spiritual discernment. Let's look at the list and see what you are so quick to toss out. Six out of nine gifts.

- a message of wisdom
- a message of knowledge
- prophecy
- prophetic tongues
- interpretation of prophetic tongues
- distinguishing between spirits

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

I think we can suspect insanity in many who claim the gift. With others it's just a wild imagination they have not learned to control.

 

[JAL]

JWs "love God" just as you do. There's more to it than that.

(Sigh). Will you ever provide a direct answer to any of my challenges or questions. I was not asking you about the JW experience. Again, I was asking you about YOUR experience.

Do you or don't you have a personal relationship with God? And if so, how to explain it without loudness?

If you're concerned about authentication (e.g. how do I know that my experience is more legitimate than the JWs), I've already addressed it. My authority is conscience (post 273), defined as feelings of certainty.

Let's go back to the worship/singing. I'm feeling some joy. Ideally I would feel 100% certain, as the prophets did, that God was 'speaking' to me. But I'm not on the prophet's level, so I can't say, with 100% absolute certainty, that it was God. But when the experience is intense (loud) the level of certainty is ENOUGH persuasion for me to form a VERY strong opinion. Meaning, at that point it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to deny the authenticity in GOOD conscience. It would be a violation of conscience.

99% certainty is still tentative certainty - it's not absolute - but it's at least a firm conviction, warranted by the insistence of conscience. An analogy will help. Suppose someone walks up to you and slaps you in the face - or so it SEEMED. I mean, you could be dreaming, right? Or delusional? 99% certainy isn't absolute certainty, but it's a heck of a lot more than wild speculation. When you STRONGLY FEEL the presence of the Lord, it feels just as real as a slap in the face.

 

[NBB]

The are a divisive sect. If they were not, would have remained mainline.

The only difference is that they believe in the baptism of the holy spirit and gifts, all else should be the same.

 

[W2L]

Want to hear God?

1 Corinthians 29 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

 

[Dave L]

(Sigh). Will you ever provide a direct answer to any of my challenges or questions. I was not asking you about the JW experience. Again, I was asking you about YOUR experience.

Do you or don't you have a personal relationship with God? And if so, how to explain it without loudness?

If you're concerned about authentication (e.g. how do I know that my experience is more legitimate than the JWs), I've already addressed it. My authority is conscience (post 273), defined as feelings of certainty.

Let's go back to the worship/singing. I'm feeling some joy. Ideally I would feel 100% certain, as the prophets did, that God was 'speaking' to me. But I'm not on the prophet's level, so I can't say, with 100% absolute certainty, that it was God. But when the experience is intense (loud) the level of certainty is ENOUGH persuasion for me to form a VERY strong opinion. Meaning, at that point it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to deny the authenticity in GOOD conscience. It would be a violation of conscience.

99% certainty is still tentative certainty - it's not absolute - but it's at least a firm conviction, warranted by the insistence of conscience. An analogy will help. Suppose someone walks up to you and slaps you in the face - or so it SEEMED. I mean, you could be dreaming, right? Or delusional? 99% certainy isn't absolute certainty, but it's a heck of a lot more than wild speculation. When you STRONGLY FEEL the presence of the Lord, it feels just as real as a slap in the face.

I believe many sect members are saved. It's part of the journey at times.

 

[Dave L]

The only difference is that they believe in the baptism of the holy spirit and gifts, all else should be the same.

We still have the Arminian/Calvinist divisions. The eschatology divisions and more.

 

[NBB]

(Sigh). Will you ever provide a direct answer to any of my challenges or questions. I was not asking you about the JW experience. Again, I was asking you about YOUR experience.

Do you or don't you have a personal relationship with God? And if so, how to explain it without loudness?

If you're concerned about authentication (e.g. how do I know that my experience is more legitimate than the JWs), I've already addressed it. My authority is conscience (post 273), defined as feelings of certainty.

Let's go back to the worship/singing. I'm feeling some joy. Ideally I would feel 100% certain, as the prophets did, that God was 'speaking' to me. But I'm not on the prophet's level, so I can't say, with 100% absolute certainty, that it was God. But when the experience is intense (loud) the level of certainty is ENOUGH persuasion for me to form a VERY strong opinion. Meaning, at that point it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to deny the authenticity in GOOD conscience. It would be a violation of conscience.

99% certainty is still tentative certainty - it's not absolute - but it's at least a firm conviction, warranted by the insistence of conscience. An analogy will help. Suppose someone walks up to you and slaps you in the face - or so it SEEMED. I mean, you could be dreaming, right? Or delusional? 99% certainy isn't absolute certainty, but it's a heck of a lot more than wild speculation. When you STRONGLY FEEL the presence of the Lord, it feels just as real as a slap in the face.

Hey i think the same way, even used the slap in the face example as well, when God touches you in that way there is not denying it.

I don't know how you can live a bible only gospel, reminds me of that pastor who after years of preaching he abandoned the gospel, he obviously didn't get touched by God.

 

[W2L]

Bible only, without sectarianism, is this bad?

 

[Albion]

do you mean "Bible only" without any connection to an assembly of Christians?