Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

You do not see the signs and wonders of an Apostle today because there are no Apostles. You do not see the genuine gifts today, including tongues, because they only came through an apostle's hands.

Interesting use of capital "A". (you knew what I would say - prophetic gift?) lol

- No signs and wonders because there are no Apostles. (capital A)
- Tongues came only through the hands of as apostle. (small a)
You were thinking of Ananias, I suppose. Not an Apostle. (capital A)

Did the outpouring (tongues and prophecy) at the house of Cornelius come at the hands of an apostle? (small a) What about the outpouring at Pentecost? Through the hands of an apostle? (small a)

No. To say that the gifts came only through the hands of an apostle doesn't hold water.
What is the source of all spiritual gifts? The Holy Spirit distributes them, just as he determines. Has the Holy Spirit been revoked? No longer in operation? (bummer) I missed the liquidation sale. Really could have used some of those greater gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:7, 11
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ...
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[Dave L]

So, miracles are random happenings now?
Since the "miracle" gifts have ceased, God has to do it himself, without our assistance?
If someone tells you they are sick, do you inform that that it isn't your problem, since the "sign" gifts, like healing, are no longer in operation?

Oh, wait... you said the prayer of faith heals the sick.
We just can't say it is a gift. Hmm... seems like a gift to me.
Especially to the one who is sick.

Pentecostals miss the message by imposing their framework over the bible. Those without an agenda see more clearly what scripture says.

 

[Dave L]

Interesting use of capital "A". (you knew what I would say - prophetic gift?) lol

- No signs and wonders because there are no Apostles. (capital A)
- Tongues came only through the hands of as apostle. (small a)
You were thinking of Ananias, I suppose. Not an Apostle. (capital A)

Did the outpouring (tongues and prophecy) at the house of Cornelius come at the hands of an apostle? (small a) What about the outpouring at Pentecost? Through the hands of an apostle? (small a)

No. To say that the gifts came only through the hands of an apostle doesn't hold water.
What is the source of all spiritual gifts? The Holy Spirit distributes them, just as he determines. Has the Holy Spirit been revoked? No longer in operation? (bummer) I missed the liquidation sale. Really could have used some of those greater gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:7, 11
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ...
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

As I said before, apart from the two outpourings, tongues and the other gifts were always associated with the laying on of an apostle's hands.

 

[Saint Steven]

How do we do the greater works of Jesus? We now reign with him in heaven. And as his body, we do whatever he does including ruling the universe.

Wow. Those are not the greater works being referred to here.
Jesus says: - "the works I have been doing" (while here on earth, implied)
- "because I am going to the Father" (leaving us behind)

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[Dave L]

Wow. Those are not the greater works being referred to here.
Jesus says: - "the works I have been doing" (while here on earth, implied)
- "because I am going to the Father" (leaving us behind)

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

How do you do greater works than God?

 

[Saint Steven]

Pentecostals miss the message by imposing their framework over the bible. Those without an agenda see more clearly what scripture says.

Did Nehemiah not see clearly because he had "an agenda"?

You have mentioned the Pentecostal "agenda" twice. (like it's a bad thing)
What is the agenda from your perspective?
The "imposed framework over the bible." ???

 

[Saint Steven]

As I said before, apart from the two outpourings, tongues and the other gifts were always associated with the laying on of an apostle's hands.

What is to prevent apostles (small a) from laying on hands today?

 

[Dave L]

Did Nehemiah not see clearly because he had "an agenda"?

You have mentioned the Pentecostal "agenda" twice. (like it's a bad thing)
What is the agenda from your perspective?
The "imposed framework over the bible." ???

Pentecostalism is a theory in search of evidence. It it were genuine, the entire Church would speak in tongues spontaneously, not coached and not conjured up as you see in your circles.

 

[Dave L]

What is to prevent apostles (small a) from laying on hands today?

There are no apostles since John died.

 

[Saint Steven]

How do you do greater works than God?

Greater works than God? Here's how...
Jesus (the infinite) was here for a finite amount of time, doing a finite amount of works.
The disciples were clear on what he meant. They knew what works he had been doing. This was a completely measurable statement. "the works I have been doing"

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[Dave L]

Greater works than God? Here's how...
Jesus (the infinite) was here for a finite amount of time, doing a finite amount of works.
The disciples were clear on what he meant. They knew what works he had been doing. This was a completely measurable statement. "the works I have been doing"

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

As the body of Christ, believers do all that God does, including all that Jesus did while on earth.

 

[Saint Steven]

Pentecostalism is a theory in search of evidence. It it were genuine, the entire Church would speak in tongues spontaneously, not coached and not conjured up as you see in your circles.

Conjured? (witchcraft?) Ouch.

Were Jesus miracles genuine?
Why did only a few get healed when he went to his hometown? (unbelief)

If I came to the pulpit in your church and said that "Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and he is here to baptize you today. The evidence will be speaking in tongues." Would I be met with receptiveness and belief, or unreceptiveness and unbelief?

Is the problem on God's end or your end?

 

[Dave L]

Conjured? (witchcraft?) Ouch.

Were Jesus miracles genuine?
Why did only a few get healed when he went to his hometown? (unbelief)

If I came to the pulpit in your church and said that "Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and he is here to baptize you today. The evidence will be speaking in tongues." Would I be met with receptiveness and belief, or unreceptiveness and unbelief?

Is the problem on God's end or your end?

If what you had was genuine, all churches would have had it all along. It is conjured up and acted out like little kids playing house.

 

[Saint Steven]

As the body of Christ, believers do all that God does, including all that Jesus did while on earth.

Yet it doesn't make headline news. How come?

 

[Dave L]

Yet it doesn't make headline news. How come?

There won't be any news after we share in the creation of the New Heavens and Earth, as Christ's body.

 

[Saint Steven]

If what you had was genuine, all churches would have had it all along. It is conjured up and acted out like little kids playing house.

That's what I am saying. -- All churches have had it all along. ​

"... little kids playing house"? More ouch.
(do I need to remind you that the Love chapter lives between 1Cor.12 and 1Cor.14?)
"... does not dishonor others..." - vs 5

 

[Saint Steven]

If what you had was genuine, all churches would have had it all along.

I wrote: "Were Jesus miracles genuine?
Why did only a few get healed when he went to his hometown? (unbelief)"

And that is your response?
You are implying that Jesus miracles weren't genuine.
By reasoning that nothing can prevent what is genuine. Seriously?

 

[Saint Steven]

There won't be any news after we share in the creation of the New Heavens and Earth, as Christ's body.

What does that have to do with what you wrote?
"As the body of Christ, believers do all that God does, including all that Jesus did while on earth." - Dave L

Since when have we done "all that Jesus did while on earth", not to mention "even greater things"? (Jn14:12)

 

[Dave L]

I wrote: "Were Jesus miracles genuine?
Why did only a few get healed when he went to his hometown? (unbelief)"

And that is your response?
You are implying that Jesus miracles weren't genuine.
By reasoning that nothing can prevent what is genuine. Seriously?

The few healed were an example of the few saved among the masses of professing believers. The true believers are always that few in number.

 

[Dave L]

What does that have to do with what you wrote?
"As the body of Christ, believers do all that God does, including all that Jesus did while on earth." - Dave L

Since when have we done "all that Jesus did while on earth", not to mention "even greater things"? (Jn14:12)

Would the creation of the New Heavens and earth be a greater work?