Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Tree of Life]

An absolute, apodictic proof of ANYTHING is probably an unreachable goal. Hence, that shouldn't really be the fulcrum on which the debate pivots. A better question, 'Where does the bulk of evidence point?'

By all accounts, the NT is, through and through, a highly charismatic text. One therefore has to ask, WHY would someone, having read such a text, lean toward a non-charismatic theology?

The most likely reason isn't the text itself, but EXPERIENCE. Today we see little or no convincing manifestations of the gifts, and hence we feel the need to find an explanation. All too often, this effort to explain away the gifts leads to a very forced, seemingly torturous reading of the critical texts.

The NT is indeed very charismatic. But what about the whole Bible? If you put the NT into the context of the whole Bible you'll notice that miraculous gifts come and go at key moments in redemptive history and they are absent in other moments.

 

[JAL]

The NT is indeed very charismatic. But what about the whole Bible? If you put the NT into the context of the whole Bible you'll notice that miraculous gifts come and go at key moments in redemptive history and they are absent in other moments.

I'm not sure what is meant by 'key moments in redemptive history'. That sounds like the kind of forced reading mentioned earlier. When Elijah came to the assistance of a poor widow, was it on account of being a 'key moment in history?' Sure, if you try hard enough, you can CONSTRUE every charismatic event in history as a 'key moment in history' - but that seems like just a forced reading of the text.

What's often overlooked here is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. God wasn't about to entrust ANY and EVERY Israelite with charismatic power. Typically He granted it to those who were most committed to Him, the most faithful, unselfish, and devout.

Whereas Israel was characterized as being largely unfaithful and adulterous. Therefore we cannot RELIABLY use Israel as a barometer of giftedness.

Now getting back to your question:

The NT is indeed very charismatic. But what about the whole Bible?

Why do I really need to look at the 'whole bible'? The promises articulated by Christ aren't CONDITIONED upon 'the whole Bible':

22“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23“Truly f I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” [26] g

Again, I'm not suggesting that ANYONE can do such miracles at will and whim. By no means. God will limit such undoubting faith primarily to the unselfish, faithful, and devout. But the point is that the promise is clearly couched in language granting it to ALL BELIEVERS (who meet God's standards of unselfishness, faithfulness, and devotion).

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm not sure what is meant by 'key moments in redemptive history'. That sounds like the kind of forced reading mentioned earlier. When Elijah came to the assistance of a poor widow, was it on account of being a 'key moment in history?' Sure, if you try hard enough, you can CONSTRUE every charismatic event in history as a 'key moment in history' - but that seems like just a forced reading of the text.

What's often overlooked here is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. God wasn't about to entrust ANY and EVERY Israelite with charismatic power. Typically He granted it to those who were most committed to Him, the most faithful, unselfish, and devout.

Whereas Israel was characterized as being largely unfaithful and adulterous. Therefore we cannot RELIABLY use Israel as a barometer of giftedness.

What about the time of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther? There were incredibly gifted and godly leaders in this era but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of charismatic gifts like those exhibited by Moses or Elijah.

Now getting back to your question:

Why do I really need to look at the 'whole bible'? The promises articulated by Christ aren't CONDITIONED upon 'the whole Bible':

22“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23“Truly f I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” [26] g

Again, I'm not suggesting that ANYONE can do such miracles at will and whim. By no means. God will limit such undoubting faith primarily to the unselfish, faithful, and devout. But the point is that the promise is clearly couched in language granting it to ALL BELIEVERS (who meet God's standards of unselfishness, faithfulness, and devotion).

If you throw out 70% of the Bible when trying to answer a theological question then you might get some inadequate results.

 

[JAL]

What about the time of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther? There were incredibly gifted and godly leaders in this era but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of charismatic gifts like those exhibited by Moses or Elijah.

You mean these people who wrote Scripture manifested no evidence of the prophetic gift? Isn't that a contradiction?

Look, you're oversimplifying the situation. What exactly is a gift FOR? Typically it does a service for God's people. But what if it's a highly disobedient people who are ALREADY UNDER JUDGMENT? Look at what Jesus said:

I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy g in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

Here we see Elijah largely UNABLE to perform miracles in Israel. Does this allow one chalk this up for cessationism, as you are prone to do based on your above statement? To use your words, was Elijah one of those 'gifted and godly leaders in this era but there doesn't doesn't appear to be any evidence of charismatic gifts'. As already noted, such superficial readings of history are torturous.

If you throw out 70% of the Bible when trying to answer a theological question then you might get some inadequate results.

I'm just throwing out your tortorous, highly speculative (mis)interpetatoins of historical barometers in favor of didactic, explicit, statements made by Christ, Paul, and others.

 

[Saint Steven]

You say that those who deny certain gifts are like those who throw away body parts. I'm saying that you also deny that certain gifts continued after the apostolic age. Unless you want to say that Apostles (like the 12) still exist and that there are those who can still write Scripture. Do you want to say this?

So, you consider apostleship to be a gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Saint Steven]

You can say that, but the issue still remains the same: did the tongues (and the gifts in general) cease at any time in Christian church history? If yes, then the cessationists are correct.

There is an odd built-in assumption in that statement. If you don't use a hammer for two years, does it cease being a hammer?

 

[Tree of Life]

So, you consider apostleship to be a gift of the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Paul says that some are gifted to be apostles when he lists gifts in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[Albion]

That's a pretty tortured reading of the text. End times? Peter is attesting to the fullfillment of Joel's promise (in what you 'see and hear'), suggesting that Pentecost is the BEGINNING of those end times (the 'last days') which indeed WOULD suggest longevity of the gift of prophecy from Pentecost TO THE VERY END.

I was responding to a different passage that had been posted by another member:

Acts chapter two gives us the time frame.
The outpouring is for the last days. (vs 17)
The promise is for "all whom the Lord our God will call." (vs 39)

Acts 2:17-20
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

………….……………………..

Let's not mix apples with oranges. The cessationist claim is that the gifts CANNOT be fully revived today. The continuationist claim is that the gifts simply HAVE NOT been fully revived as of today.

The cessationist isn't saying that. He is saying that they ceased. What you see today in some churches is not any sort of continuation.

God can gift anyone he wants to gift and at any time; we have to agree to that. However, whole congregations today are merely going through the motions imitating the "gifts" that are the easiest to imitate. And sometimes not even that.

Saying that the gifts did not "continue on as always" says nothing about them ceasing.

If something continues on in a different way or less conspicuously than before - that does not say anything about them ceasing altogether.

You are inserting "less conspicuous than before" in order to keep alive a claim that there was a continuity. Yes, I have heard speculation from my Pentecostal friends that some rebel bans of tongues-speakers must have hid out for centuries, unnoticed, or some such theory, but it is not credible.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes. Paul says that some are gifted to be apostles when he lists gifts in 1 Corinthians 12.

I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that one. How do we receive spiritual gifts? The Holy Spirit distributes them as he decides. That being the case, what is to prevent the Holy Spirit from giving a gift of apostleship today?

 

[Albion]

There is an odd built-in assumption in that statement. If you don't use a hammer for two years, does it cease being a hammer?

It's the use of the hammer that would provide an analogy to people speaking in tongues or receiving a word of knowledge, etc, not a claim that they could do any of that... but did not.

There is no convincing argument that says the Holy Spirit gave someone these gifts but that they never were put into practice!

 

[Tree of Life]

I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that one. How do we receive spiritual gifts? The Holy Spirit distributes them as he decides. That being the case, what is to prevent the Holy Spirit from giving a gift of apostleship today?

I suppose only that the Holy Spirit elsewhere says that the gift of apostleship is a foundational gift (Ephesians 2:20). A foundation can only be laid once. And the Holy Spirit seems to give parameters to the apostolic office which would exclude anyone after the time of the apostles (Acts 1:21-22).

So I do not believe that we have apostles today and I do not believe that anyone can write authoritative Scripture today.

Just to be clear, do you believe that we can have apostles today who are on par with the twelve? Do you believe that someone could arise today and write new Scripture which is on par with the Bible?

 

[Saint Steven]

It's the use of the hammer that would provide an analogy to people speaking in tongues or receiving a word of knowledge, etc, not a claim that they could do any of that... but did not.

There is no convincing argument that says the Holy Spirit gave someone these gifts but that they never were put into practice!

My understanding of Cessationism is that they claim there was no hammer. Therefore it could not be used. I am claiming there was a hammer that in large part was not being used. Thus neglect.

 

[Dave L]

No translator was needed on Pentecost because, as you suggest, everything was immediately understood. When the language is immediately understood, what you have is the gift of PROPHECY, not the gift of TONGUES. Peter classified it as prophecy (fulfilment of Joel's promise of PROPHECY).

The gift of tongues doesn't exist in Acts. Acts is about prophecy.

Contrast this with the gifts described in 1Cor 14. There, a clear distinction is made between the gift of prophecy (a message which is understood immediately and thus has no need for a translator) versus the gift of tongues (which needs a translator). So I must perforce disagree with your categorical, "Those in the early church knew what they were saying when speaking in tongues."

That's dead wrong. It was precisely because they did NOT understand that they needed either:
(1) a companion endued with the gift of interpretationn
(2) OR to pray for that gift for themselves.

You are adding to scripture to make the gift of tongues more than it ever was. Paul defines what took place in the outpourings in Corinthians. The gifts ceased when he said they would. Bogus gifts today support this.

 

[Albion]

My understanding of Cessationism is that they claim there was no hammer.

I think that's a mistake. The point of these gifts is that the recipient is enabled to have some power, to do something or know something, etc.

 

[Saint Steven]

… So I do not believe that we have apostles today and I do not believe that anyone can write authoritative Scripture today.

Just to be clear, do you believe that we can have apostles today who are on par with the twelve? Do you believe that someone could arise today and write new Scripture which is on par with the Bible?

There is a difference between "the" Apostles and "an" apostle.

Few today would be so bold as to self-proclaim themselves as apostles.
But consider the definition. The definition of apostle (from the Greek apostolos) is "one who is sent" or "one commissioned.".

Romans 10:14-15
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the basis of the definition, I believe that every Preacher, Pastor, Evangelist, Missionary, and even the rest of us, are apostles on some level.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Matthew 10:16
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Luke 10:3
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.

John 20:21
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”

 

[His student]

You are inserting "less conspicuous than before" in order to keep alive a claim that there was a continuity.

No - I am simply explaining to you that there are other ways to look at my post than the way you represented it. If you want to think of my post as you did without being corrected about it - I'll leave you to it now. I have explained that your assumptions about my beliefs are wrong.

Yes, I have heard speculation from my Pentecostal friends that some rebel bans of tongues-speakers must have hid out for centuries, unnoticed, or some such theory, but it is not credible.

Nor have I ever said that.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is a difference between "the" Apostles and "an" apostle.

Few today would be so bold as to self-proclaim themselves as apostles.
But consider the definition. The definition of apostle (from the Greek apostolos) is "one who is sent" or "one commissioned.".

Romans 10:14-15
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the basis of the definition, I believe that every Preacher, Pastor, Evangelist, Missionary, and even the rest of us, are apostles on some level.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Matthew 10:16
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Luke 10:3
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.

John 20:21
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”

I agree that all Christians can be apostolic in the sense that you describe.

But just to be perfectly clear...

Would you agree that there are no apostles today on par with the twelve?
Would you agree that there are no new Scripture writers today?

 

[Albion]

No - I am simply explaining to you that there are other ways to look at my post than the way you represented it.

Well, I know this much...you wrote "less conspicuous than before," which means that you are saying that they were in evidence, if not necessarily common. That thesis would require a lot of explaining and evidence which has not been presented.

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you believe that someone could arise today and write new Scripture which is on par with the Bible?

Cessationists believe that the Bible is a closed book. God has nothing more for us. But I believe anything is possible. The books were chosen because they are considered inspired, not written because the writers felt they were inspirited.

When the Israelites had their backs to the Red Sea and the Egyptians were coming after them, who could have foreseen that the Red Sea would part and they would walk through on dry land? Or that the walls of Jericho would tumble. Or that axe heads would float. Or that tongues of fore would separate and come to rest on the heads of those who began speaking in tongues.

Could God send forth a new Apostle or twelve? Why not? Could additional inspired works be written? Why not?

 

[Saint Steven]

You are adding to scripture to make the gift of tongues more than it ever was. Paul defines what took place in the outpourings in Corinthians. The gifts ceased when he said they would. Bogus gifts today support this.

Did knowledge and prophecy also cease?