Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Saint Steven

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There are several reasons why that passage cannot support the contentions of continuationists--typical Pentecostal Christians, that is.

For one, nothing in it says that the gifts must have continued on throughout all the ages and never let up. For that is the argument that the continuationist will give. In fact, the passage suggests that the signs described are something special for the end times.

For another, what is spoken of in this passage is not identical to, does not parallel, the list of gifts described in Corinthians, although there are some similarities.
That argument can be made either way.

It doesn't say that there will be an interruption.
Obviously the things referred to are happening at that very moment and will be happening in the last days. The unbiased inference would be that these things would continue, not that they would be interrupted.

Acts 2:17-20
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
 
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Albion

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That argument can be made either way.

It doesn't say that there will be an interruption.
Do you not think that the passage is talking about these events occurring during the last days as something out of the ordinary? It certainly seems to me that it does.
 
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Saint Steven

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We need to face the facts.
Cessationism is the theologians' answer to the congregations valid question: "Why aren't we experiencing the gifts as they were in the early church?"

Instead of falling on their faces before God to plead for a fresh outpouring, they hit the books to cook up an answer. Cessationism is the result. We've been robbed.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you not think that the passage is talking about these events occurring during the last days as something out of the ordinary? It certainly seems to me that it does.
Peter referred to this passage in Joel to explain the outpouring at Pentecost. The passage spans the period of time from that moment up until "the great and glorious day of the Lord."
 
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Albion

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We need to face the facts.
Cessationism is the theologians' answer to the congregations valid question: "Why aren't we experiencing the gifts as they were in the early church?"

Instead of falling on their faces before God to plead for a fresh outpouring, they hit the books to cook up an answer. Cessationism is the result. We've been robbed.
That is what most continuationists like to think. However, the only reason that cessationists are cessationists is--as I said in the first place--because they ceased. Had that not happened, there would be no division of opinion about this.
 
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Saint Steven

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That is what most continuationists like to think. However, the only reason that cessationists are cessationists is--as I said in the first place--because they ceased. Had that not happened, there would be no division of opinion about this.
If there are unopened gifts still sitting under the tree, I wouldn't blame the giver. I blame the receiver.
 
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knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.


I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.

I believe that's it's a difficult case to prove biblically either way. That's one reason why there's been so much debate on this issue. The deity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation by faith through grace - these doctrines are much easier to establish from Scripture. I am a cessationist and believe that cessationism makes the most biblical sense. But it is not proven from Scripture like the Trinity is proven from Scripture.
 
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Saint Steven

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However, the only reason that cessationists are cessationists is--as I said in the first place--because they ceased.
These quotes from the early church indicate that they did not cease as claimed.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

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Albion

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If there are unopened gifts still sitting under the tree, I wouldn't blame the giver. I blame the receiver.
Not the issue. The issue with cessationism/continuationism is not potential but actual experience or lack of it.

That's what the words mean, and it is what the disagreement is about.
 
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Albion

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These quotes from the early church indicate that they did not cease as claimed.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
We all know that the gifts were significant during the days of the Early Church aka the Ancient Church.

All you have referred to here are spokesmen from the first 360 or so years of church history, barely enough time to have Christianity become the official religion of the Empire and the Bible be canonized. They don't show us that the gifts did not cease as cessationists contend.
 
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Saint Steven

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Not the issue. The issue with cessationism/continuationism is not potential but actual experience or lack of it.

That's what the words mean, and it is what the disagreement is about.
The operation of spiritual gifts (manifestations of the Holy Spirit) is a partnership. Manifestations can "cease" through neglect on the part of believers. Even a toaster doesn't work if it isn't plugged in. Would you blame the manufacturer, or the user?
 
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Saint Steven

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We all know that the gifts were significant during the days of the Early Church aka the Ancient Church.

All you have referred to here are spokesmen from the first 360 or so years of church history, barely enough time to have Christianity become the official religion of the Empire and the Bible be canonized. They don't show us that the gifts did not cease as cessationists contend.
No. The main contention of Cessationism is that the gifts ceased with the last Apostle. This shows that the gifts continued after the Apostles.
 
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A more fundamental question for those who debate this issue: Are the charismatic spiritual gifts* a big focus of Jesus and the apostles? Or are they a peripheral issue?

*The gifts in question are things like prophesy, tongues, authoritative healing, etc. No one denies that the Spirit today gives the more ordinary gifts like teaching, administrating, helping, etc...
 
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Saint Steven

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A more fundamental question for those who debate this issue: Are the charismatic spiritual gifts* a big focus of Jesus and the apostles? Or are they a peripheral issue?

*The gifts in question are things like prophesy, tongues, authoritative healing, etc. No one denies that the Spirit today gives the more ordinary gifts like teaching, administrating, helping, etc...
All the spiritual gifts are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We tend to rate them on a curve as to how miraculous they seem to be. This is only human perception. None of the gifts are human physical abilities.

I find it interesting that the same churches that deny the continuation of the gifts will accept the testimony of one who hears from God or one who received a healing. Both are gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit.
 
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We all know that the gifts were significant during the days of the Early Church aka the Ancient Church.

All you have referred to here are spokesmen from the first 360 or so years of church history, barely enough time to have Christianity become the official religion of the Empire and the Bible be canonized. They don't show us that the gifts did not cease as cessationists contend.
If you are an evangelical student of Church history you would realize that it may well have been the quenching of the Spirit that accompanied Christianity being enthroned as an official religion of the empire that was a reason for what we've witnessed as a long period of only intermittent manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit until these later days in the Church age.

Organized religion has not been the friend of personal interaction of God's people with the Spirit of God.
 
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All the spiritual gifts are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We tend to rate them on a curve as to how miraculous they seem to be. This is only human perception. None of the gifts are human physical abilities.

I find it interesting that the same churches that deny the continuation of the gifts will accept the testimony of one who hears from God or one who received a healing. Both are gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Here's what I deny as a cessationist:
  1. That the apostolic sign gifts continued after the age of the apostles. These would include gifts of authoritative healing (Peter didn't pray for a person to be healed, he simply healed them), tongues, and prophesy.

  2. That there is any further authoritative revelation from God outside of the canon of Scripture.
Here's what I affirm as a cessationist:
  1. God still heals today.
  2. Miracles still occur today.
  3. God still speaks today (through Scripture and through preaching).
  4. All people have gifts from the Holy Spirit - believers and non-believers.
 
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knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.


I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.

For a thread focused on the defense and explanation of cessationism see here - Understanding Cessationism
 
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Saint Steven

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I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Here's what I deny as a cessationist:
  1. That the apostolic sign gifts continued after the age of the apostles. These would include gifts of authoritative healing (Peter didn't pray for a person to be healed, he simply healed them), tongues, and prophesy.

  2. That there is any further authoritative revelation from God outside of the canon of Scripture.
Here's what I affirm as a cessationist:
  1. God still heals today.
  2. Miracles still occur today.
  3. God still speaks today (through Scripture and through preaching).
  4. All people have gifts from the Holy Spirit - believers and non-believers.
These gifts (manifestations) were given to make us a complete body of believers.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” - 1Cor.12:21

Those who deny certain gifts are throwing away important body parts. Then they wonder why the church is an invalid.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.
 
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Halbhh

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knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.


I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.

To me the following makes it clear we cannot predict much at all about even which gifts were temporary for that time (during Acts, during the apostle's lives), and which are still quite possible to happen now (we know some surely have continued, and some of us have experienced miraculous healing for instance, which was unnatural, sudden (in my own case)).

The verse that says to me we cannot predict the Spirit:

John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (this verse tells us more than only one thing)

I feel it isn't up to us to try to assert the Spirit will or won't do one thing or another. It would be acting as if we think we are omniscient.

So, if I wonder whether the gift of tongues for instance was used to a direct purpose (to witness to foreigners), and therefore might not be expected to happen later in other situations and/or without foreigners, that might turn out right, but it would be wrong for me to assert it as a certainty, because it isn't up to us to say. Rather, I can know that there was a powerful outpouring of Spirit. I can't know the future in all ways, but only the ways prophesied. And we do have some prophecy about future events in this.
 
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These gifts (manifestations) were given to make us a complete body of believers. Those who deny certain gifts are throwing away important body parts. Then they wonder why the church is an invalid.

I don't believe that the church is in any way invalid nor do I spend time wondering about its validity.

I suspect that you also might deny the continuation of certain gifts. Do you believe that there are any apostles today in the sense of the apostolic office that the 12 held? Do you believe that there is anyone today who is able to write authoritative words from God that would be on par with Scripture?
 
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