Is Christ divided?

[Tychicum]

Tychicum -

Why do you want me to look at 1 Corinthians 1???

You did not reply to EPHESIANS 5:25-26.

Paul said this AFTER 1 Corinthians 1 - so in your "progressive" revelation mindset, it must have more import - does it not??!!

WHY did you not answer that before you throw up another passage for me to look at??? You need to answer - IF you have one.

Can't you harmonize 1 Corinthains 1 with Ephesisans 5??

"...the washing of water with the word..."

Quit dodging - it is time to answer up.

(Of course, I will habe more to say when time allows.)

Can someone interpret for me?

Do you have a question?

If so what is it?

Do you believe this to be some kind of a contest? I'm here to learn. You are failing miserably at teaching anybody anything.

You seem to think that Ephesians is written after Corinthians. And your point is ... ?

You seem to mock that revelation is progressive. Do you believe that Moses knew as much as Matthew? That would be odd ...

Again do you have a point ... ?

 

[Tychicum]

I see no lack of harmony.

In verse 27 we are called the "radiant Church." This includes those of Israel who have come to the Lord in this economy. We aren't called spiritual Jews or the Israel of God.

Is that what she is trying to say?

I don't see it either.

.

 

[Tychicum]

I can understand the concern some have...but I don't see it as warranted once they actually understand the what Dispensationalism is saying. I have found that most people who cling to Replacement, do so without understanding the promises made by God in the Old Testament. There seems to be a belief that the New Testament has nullified much of what is in the Old. Just because the writer of Hebrews calls the New Covenant a "better covenant" doesn't mean that the rest of the Old Testament is nullified. Furthermore, God never made the New Covenant with the Church, nor with Gentiles. It is only because of Yeshua that we can have any part in inheriting spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). We are partakers, not taker-overs. God has promised Israel many things, and there will yet be a generation who will inherit these things (Romans 11:26). The covenant was made with Israel & Judah...and will be fulfilled in them. We are not Israel or Judah...we are the Church, within which are some from Israel. But we are not Israel. We are spiritual sons of Abraham, not spiritual sons of Jacob (Israel).

Godspeed & Shalom!

As I get older I get less patient with "Replacement Theology". And the whole of Amilleniallism for that matter ...

Anybody who thinks things as getting better and better and that the Church will triumph over the world ... just before the Saviour returns had better just look out the window.

It ain't happening for them.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Paul tells us the the Jews who are circumcised in the flesh but not in their hearts are not Jews.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; [/FONT]2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

We are spiritual Jews.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians 2 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. [/FONT]2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [/FONT]

We are the children of the promise. We are Spiritual Israel.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 9 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Galatians 6 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. [/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Philippians 3 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Paul plainly tells us in this verse, that those who worship God in the spirit are the Circumcision.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. [/FONT]
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By the way, I don't think the Church replaced Israel. And I don't believe in a pretrib rapture. I don't believe that anyone will get out of here before the last trumpet.
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[Kimberlyann]

"Spiritual Jews" is Replacement Theology.

I believe that to be a total mistreatment of Israel.

And it seems to make God mutable insofar as He would be welching on His promises to Israel.

I have never really understood that concept.

Are you total amillenial as well Kimberlyann? No Rapture of the Church? No Millennial Kingdom?

They usually come as a package so I am just trying to understand.

Tychicum, why do you keep trying to label me? I'm not amillenial. And I don't think God will renege on any promise.

Paul began teaching the promises of God from the beginning of his ministry.

Acts 22-23
22...He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior--Jesus--

Isn't the same promised seed also Our Savior as well as Israel's?

 

[Tychicum]

Tychicum, why do you keep trying to label me? I'm not amillenial. And I don't think God will renege on any promise.

God loves labels. So do I.

Leme get this ... a premillennial postie ... who believes the Church will go through the Tribulation ... Israel and the Church are one in the same.

How does that work? If you are not amillenail you must be premillennial. Except you deny premillennialism ... and certainly the Rapture.

Either one believes in the Millennial Kingdom (pre-millennial) or not (amillennial ... as in there isn't one).

One can not believe believe the second coming is both before the Kingdom ... but there isn't going to be a Kingdom ... Oh ... and we are in the Kingdom ... except it ain't Kingdom like.

You say God isn't going to fail to fulfil His promises to Israel ... but instead He is giving all of His promise to the church. I would think that Israel might see through this deception ...

Maybe you could be so kind as to simply state your belief in point form ... You must be able to state them simply ... or are you just formulating all this on the fly ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can understand the concern some have...but I don't see it as warranted once they actually understand the what Dispensationalism is saying. I have found that most people who cling to Replacement, do so without understanding the promises made by God in the Old Testament. There seems to be a belief that the New Testament has nullified much of what is in the Old.

Just because the writer of Hebrews calls the New Covenant a "better covenant" doesn't mean that the rest of the Old Testament is nullified. Furthermore, God never made the New Covenant with the Church, nor with Gentiles. It is only because of Yeshua that we can have any part in inheriting spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). We are partakers, not taker-overs. God has promised Israel many things, and there will yet be a generation who will inherit these things (Romans 11:26). The covenant was made with Israel & Judah...and will be fulfilled in them. We are not Israel or Judah...we are the Church, within which are some from Israel. But we are not Israel. We are spiritual sons of Abraham, not spiritual sons of Jacob (Israel).
Godspeed & Shalom!

Umm. How can it be spiritual sons of both?
Your either of the Spirit of Christ or the Flesh of Adam. I do know there will never be another jewish priesthood in the future. Blessings

Matt 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat........................ 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?

ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

 

[yesterdog]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. [/FONT]

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By the way, I don't think the Church replaced Israel. And I don't believe in a pretrib rapture. I don't believe that anyone will get out of here before the last trumpet.
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You're still ignoring Romans 2:17 and the verse which are in the context of chapter 2. Why are you ignoring them?

You can quote all sorts of verses, and I agree with them...do you think I don't? Nevertheless, you ignore Romans 2:17 as I have pointed out, and as you've neglected to answer. Because of verse 17 there isn't any way we can call ourselves "spiritual Jews." That's your doctrine infringing on Scripture.

Pre-Trib Rapture...what does that have to do with this subject?

And you seem to assume what the last trumpet is, too. Lots of assumptions, not any answers.

 

[yesterdog]

Umm. How can it be spiritual sons of both?
Your either of the Spirit of Christ or the Flesh of Adam. I do know there will never be another jewish priesthood in the future. Blessings

Matt 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "Thescribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat........................ 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?

ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

I never said there were spiritual sons of both. I was saying that to be spiritual Israel then we would be sons of Jacob, not Abraham.

And you're positive there will never be another Jewish priesthood? The Temple in Ezekiel is for whom?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with your quotations of Scripture. I see no connection.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Yesterdog,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2 [/FONT]2:17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,




Isn't Paul taking about the Jews who continually boast of their relationship with God? Paul is showing that being a Jew isn't sufficient for salvation. Circumcision by itself guarantees nothing. True religion is always a matter of the heart. The true Jew is one who is circumcised of he heart done by the spirit not by written code.

 

[yesterdog]

Yesterdog,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2 [/FONT]2:17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,


Isn't Paul taking about the Jews who continually boast of their relationship with God? Paul is showing that being a Jew isn't sufficient for salvation. Circumcision by itself guarantees nothing. True religion is always a matter of the heart. The true Jew is one who is circumcised of he heart done by the spirit not by written code.

But Paul writes directly to them, and actually does a word play on what "Jew" means from its base "Judah," which is "to praise." See Genesis 29:35.

Paul seals the word play in his mention of "praise from men, but from God" is what they should be concerned with. It's a word play. Being Jewish is to be a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If you read Leviticus 24 you'll see that an Israelite was someone from the twelve tribes. Even in the New Testament we see this same truth is there when we read about Timothy in Acts 16. Timothy was known to be Greek...though his mother was Jewish.

So I can agree that because Paul was speaking directly to the Jewish believers that it is Jewish to believe in Yeshua and to follow Him. Also, this is the Israel of God--those of Israeli descent who are believers.

No one said that being a Jew was sufficient for salvation--this is a common mischaracterization of Dispensationalism. The issue is over whom is being spoken to in that passage. From the context it's the Jewish believers in the Roman congregation.

 

[TheScottsMen]

No one said that being a Jew was sufficient for salvation--this is a common mischaracterization of Dispensationalism. The issue is over whom is being spoken to in that passage. From the context it's the Jewish believers in the Roman congregation.

Come now, Dispensationalist do not say that one is saved by simply being a Jew. Jews are saved by the mercy and grace of God: period. Though, unlike the Gentiles, the Jews were given the Law and to be keepers of the law, though the law in its self did not save anyone, it did set Israel apart as God's peculiar nation, His kingdom of priest.


TSM

 

[Tychicum]

Come now, Dispensationalist do not say that one is saved by simply being a Jew. Jews are saved by the mercy and grace of God: period. Though, unlike the Gentiles, the Jews were given the Law and to be keepers of the law, though the law in its self did not save anyone, it did set Israel apart as God's peculiar nation, His kingdom of priest.


TSM

One born of Israel ... God's chosen ... were in the parlance of this discussion "saved".

To retain that status ... in so far as they understood it ... there were a number of acts which had to be conducted under the Law (sacrifices) to retain that status. Atonement in particular ...

So in a way I do agree that one was "saved" by being a Jew.

They were born into that relationship.

Of course their understanding of what it meant to be "saved" was completely different than ours ...

From the outside looking in Paul describes it as this ... :

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

†

 

[yesterdog]

Come now, Dispensationalist do not say that one is saved by simply being a Jew. Jews are saved by the mercy and grace of God: period. Though, unlike the Gentiles, the Jews were given the Law and to be keepers of the law, though the law in its self did not save anyone, it did set Israel apart as God's peculiar nation, His kingdom of priest.

TSM

Please feel free to read my post again. I believe we're in agreement. I was just mentioning a mischaracterization of Dispensationalism...never said that I believe this mischaracterization, and I do consider myself a Dispensationalist.

Godspeed

 

[Kimberlyann]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:12 .....were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. [/FONT]2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Clearly we are no longer alienated from the promise covenants. We gentiles are fellow citizens of the citizenship of Israel.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 6 [/FONT]
6:5 For if we (Jew or Greek) have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

There is only one body and it will be united together at The resurrection.




[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 4 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; [/FONT]4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


I am content to be a member of one body consisting of ALL the Saints.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Please feel free to read my post again. I believe we're in agreement. I was just mentioning a mischaracterization of Dispensationalism...never said that I believe this mischaracterization, and I do consider myself a Dispensationalist.

Godspeed

haha. My apologizes

 

[Tychicum]

I am content to be a member of one body consisting of ALL the Saints.

Well as far as we know there is no doctrinal knowledge test for acceptance in to heaven.


.

 

[Kimberlyann]

After marveling over the faith of one Gentile Centurion, Jesus told his disciples...


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 8 [/FONT]8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Gentile saints will be with the Jewish saints in the Kingdom of Heaven.




Jesus foretold of the union of these two people.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 10 [/FONT]10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.



Paul told the Thessalonians's

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Thessalonians 3 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, [/FONT]3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
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[Tychicum]

After marveling over the faith of one Gentile Centurion, Jesus told his disciples...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 8 [/FONT]8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Gentile saints will be with the Jewish saints in the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is absolutely true ...

Jesus foretold of the union of these two people.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 10 [/FONT]10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

That is absolutely true as well ...

Paul told the Thessalonians's

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Thessalonians 3 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, [/FONT]3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
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And to that I can only add ... Amen!

.

 

[yesterdog]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:12 .....were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. [/FONT]2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Clearly we are no longer alienated from the promise covenants. We gentiles are fellow citizens of the citizenship of Israel.

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So, will the Church inherit the Land of Israel as given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his descendants?
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 6 [/FONT]
6:5 For if we (Jew or Greek) have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

There is only one body and it will be united together at The resurrection.

Never said that we're not united. How do you believe I am negating this?[/FONT]


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Ephesians 4

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; [/FONT]4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


I am content to be a member of one body consisting of ALL the Saints.

And I am discontented? Not at all. I appreciate noting the value of all those within the Body. The egalitarian movement is actually what devalues IMHO. Men and women are unique and wonderful, just like Jew and Gentile. We are united in the Body. But a hand is not a shoulder, and an elbow is not foot.