Is Christ divided?

[Kimberlyann]

Yesterdog,
I wasn't addressing you personally. I never said you were discontented. And I never thought you were negating the unity of the saints. I was only trying to show the unity of "all" the saints.


Paul says that Christ came to the Circumcision, to confirm the patriarchal promises. With these promises in mind he goes on to say, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." (Israel)

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 15 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]15:9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]15:10 Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." [/FONT]

Don't the Gentiles have their expectation "WITH" God's people Israel?



Paul said the Gentiles shared in the spiritual blessings of Israel.

In Romans 15:25-27 we read.

25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

In Eph. 2:19 Paul says we are fellow citizens with Gods people. If we are fellow citizens with the saints, how is it that some say ( I am not implying that's what you say) we have a different calling , gospel, salvation and reward from the very citizens of whom we are fellow citizens?

2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,

 

[eph3Nine]

quote from Kimberlyann:I am content to be a member of one body consisting of ALL the Saints.

The only problem with this is that ALL the saints are not promised heaven. ONE section of that audience has been promised EARTHLY REAL ESTATE and an EARTHLY inheritance, and one section has been promised HEAVENLY THINGS.

NOT all saints are members of the Body of Christ. Those who are members of the Kingdom Church of Times PAST and ages to come will inherit the earth, and while they are IN CHRIST as believers, they are NOT in the BODY of Christ. This distinction is solely for those saved under Pauls ministry with the gospel of the grace of God.

So...to say that all saints are members of the Body is not only NOT biblical , but shows a misunderstanding of Gods initial revealing of TWO programs for TWO realms beginning in Gen 1:1.

Satan has usurped the rightful authority of God to rule in both of these realms, and the WHOLE Of your bible, and mine, is God telling us HOW He plans on re establishing His reign and rule in BOTH realms.

 

[Kimberlyann]

This is what Jesus said,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 8 [/FONT]8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west (Gentiles), and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. ( not to some different calling at a different location)

Clearly, the Gentile saints with be with the Jewish saints in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[eph3Nine]

This is what Jesus said,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 8 [/FONT]8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west (Gentiles), and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. ( not to some different calling at a different location)

Clearly, the Gentile saints with be with the Jewish saints in the Kingdom of Heaven.

What JESUS SAID while on the earth was addressed to and specifically meant for the Nation Israel...NOT we the Body of Christ. HE SAID SO.

WE do not inherit the earthly promises given to the nation Israel, and they do NOT get the heavenly promises given to us. We both have the same LORD, but different final dwelling places and positions of authority within those realms.

Read genesis 1:1...TWO realms...heaven AND earth. Israel was never promised heaven...and we were never promised the earth.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Then was Jesus was telling Israel that the Gentiles would sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven or not?

 

[eph3Nine]

Then was Jesus was telling Israel that the Gentiles would sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven or not?

No maam, it wasnt. YOU are reading INTO what Jesus in His earthly ministery said to ISRAEL what simply isnt there. The KINGDOM of heaven was to be ON the earth for the nation Israel. God coming DOWN to earth to set up a literal , physical KINGDOM. Twelve tribes, with twelve thrones, with twelve apostles and a KING to rule. This WILL still come to pass in ages to come, as God promised it...to whom? YOU? NO. YOU are part of Gods MYSTERY revealed program if you are a member of His body thru faith in the finished work of Christ on Calvary.

Did Jesus in His ministry on the earth TELL us that His words were to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", or did he NOT?

Do you BELIEVE what He said, OR NOT?

WE, the Body of Christ, have NOTHING to do with the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. WE have to do with a Body that God is preparing for HEAVEN, and we are going UP to be with our Lord in the AIR.

Seems you havent read that part.

 

[Soldier_For_Christ]

1 Corinthians 1:13 talks about the evils of what today we would call "denominationalism".

I agree with Paul. There should be no denominations. We need to unite around the Gospel of Grace until the Lord returns for us in the Rapture and then Gospel of the Kingdom will be offered again to Israel. This next time she will accept (according to prophecy).

Your other quotes ... central around Ephesians 4:5 ... speaks of the "one baptism" in the "body of Christ".

That of course is baptism by the Holy Spirit when you believed.

I agree with Paul. Water baptism really doesn't have a place in the Church today.

Good thread ...

I don't know about water babtism, but I definitely agree that having different denominations is definitely not what God wanted from his earthly followers. If you ask me, all churchs need to let go of whatever is seperating them from the other churchs and all churchs need to unite around the Bible since it is what we all have in common. I believe that would solve a lot of the problems in all Churchs today.

 

[eph3Nine]

unfortunately, soldier, the bible is NOT the unifying factor in "religion"...as most dont rightly divide it! Why do you think there ARE so many denominations? It is because we have failed to follow this simple admonition.

Everyone picks and chooses the parts THEY like and ignore the fact that God tells us that there is a place where we find OUR specific instructions for TODAY...and its NOT in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

NOT recognizing that we have an apostle with NEW instructions, a NEW program , for WE, a NEW CREATION is what has thrown the professing church into so much confusion. Also the fact that we are LAZY beyond belief and refuse to study the bible for ourselves, but leave it up to the UNINFORMED persons called "pastors" to spoon feed us. This is what the bible calls, the blind leading the blind. TSK TSK TSK

 

[Soldier_For_Christ]

unfortunately, soldier, the bible is NOT the unifying factor in "religion"...as most dont rightly divide it! Why do you think there ARE so many denominations? It is because we have failed to follow this simple admonition.

Everyone picks and chooses the parts THEY like and ignore the fact that God tells us that there is a place where we find OUR specific instructions for TODAY...and its NOT in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

NOT recognizing that we have an apostle with NEW instructions, a NEW program , for WE, a NEW CREATION is what has thrown the professing church into so much confusion. Also the fact that we are LAZY beyond belief and refuse to study the bible for ourselves, but leave it up to the UNINFORMED persons called "pastors" to spoon feed us. This is what the bible calls, the blind leading the blind. TSK TSK TSK

Whoa, slow down there. I'm fairly certain we both have some mutual beliefs here, eph3Nine.

I agree with you completely that the reason people do not agree and therefore split into seperate denominations is because they do not take the entire Bible into context and instead focus on a single point of it, which is enough to cause problems. I also agree that the Church (like a majority of modern society) has become very lazy and average Christians do not read the Bible for themselves because they are so used to being spook-feed everything they think they need to know from their pastors. I'll even admit that I often fall into this category.

Of course, don't completely discount pastors. Although we shouldn't just be satisfied with what they tell us and we do need to read the Bible for ourselves, it is always possible (and indeed probable) that God could speak to us through a pastor's sermon.

However, you have me confused on one point: What do you mean by "A place where we can find our specific instructions for today"?

 

[Kimberlyann]

Eph,

Maybe you'll listen to Paul,

1 Corinthians 12

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Paul says in Eph.,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 3 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 4 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; [/FONT]
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[Kimberlyann]

Eph.

You said, Did Jesus in His ministry on the earth TELL us that His words were to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", or did he NOT?

Do you BELIEVE what He said, OR NOT?


I have no trouble believing anything Jesus said. Jesus himself foretold of the union the Gentile and Jewish saints.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 10 [/FONT]10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Since Jesus says there is one flock and one Shepherd, who is man to split them into two?

 

[eph3Nine]

You make a mockery of studying the scriptures. Its NOT rocket science. Go to the portion of scripture that is written TO and ABOUT you...YOU are not Israel.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Then give me two or three Scriptures that prove me wrong.


Here is a bit of wisdom.

"If something is false, (actually, factually, and literally false), then all honest scholarship and study done on that particular subject will only further verify its falsehood.

If, however, something is really true ( actually, factually, and literally true), then all honest scholarship and study done on that particular subject will, likewise, only further verify its truthfulness."

 

[eph3Nine]

Scriptural is not the issue...dispensational IS. Something can be scriptural but NOT dispensational...and be WRONG to apply to YOU. That is what you fail to understand.

 

[Hedgehog]

You make a mockery of studying the scriptures. Its NOT rocket science. Go to the portion of scripture that is written TO and ABOUT you...YOU are not Israel.

What you mean Eph3Nine is that *you* are not Israel. That much is very clear.

There is ONE true Israel, it is the faithful people. Ethnic was never God's true Israel. It's been made clear and plain that God is not a respector of people, therefore He doesn't chose and base anything on your race.
Bloodline ....sure, but that bloodline is Jesus bloodline, and His blood is applied to whomever has faith.

It's time you placed your loyalty with our Savior Eph, not with a doctrine. YOU are the one making a mockery of His truth. Same as the people of ethnic Israel did. Jesus came and dispelled all those falsehoods that they had turned His truth into.
Eph. Take off the blindfold.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Hsa 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because [there is] no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie,

 

[Hedgehog]

Eph, do you even read the SCRIPTURES that people post, or do you just look for the debate and argument?

What covenant with death and hell then had they (Israel) made?

What LIES had they made their refuge?

Why does GOD HIMSELF say that there is no truth and knowledge in the land? yet you are claiming they had a different type of real/acceptable salvation from God.

Have you considered that maybe Israel was WRONG and THAT is why we/no one is under that so called program anymore?

 

[Hedgehog]

One more thing-

Jesus Himself says that He speaks in parables, for a specific reason, so that the "world" would not understand Him.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Though Jesus message used different words... it is NOT different message than Paul spoke.

Pro 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so [is] a parable in the mouth of fools.

 

[Hedgehog]

Im on my way out the door, but before I lose my train of thought...


Paul himself talks about ethnic Israel being wrong in what they had believed.

Eph, please. Stop believing the same lies that they believed.

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

You'll notice Paul doesnt talk about GOD'S traditions, he says his peoples traditions.

Jesus talks about it too.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Eph, the "program" of Israel is NOT coming back, not for them, not for anyone. It was wrong. Jesus, AND PAUL helped us see this truth.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

They were blinded. I am not trying to debate with you or argue. I am trying to help you take the veil off, the same veil that ethnic Israel had.

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

there was no truth in the whole system of Judaism that THEY had created.
The truth is Christianity. It should have been here from the beginning, only they twisted it.

You are dead wrong when you wait for a physical kingdom of God on Earth/millenial reign etc etc.. even if you only believe it is for the "Jews" and that they will be the light unto the world during that time.

JESUS WAS THE LIGHT. The kingdom is here. It is the faithful people.

Ya know what? the Jews waited for things to be fulfilled in an earthly sense.... so much so that they didnt believe God Himself when He came and tried to be the Light, and show them what was really meant.
They believed He was false and not of God because they wanted to believe what they believed already instead.

YOU are believing that though their so called truth isnt for today, you believe it IS a truth for a different time, both past and present(edited to correct- I meant past and future). Thats not true. Their truth was never true. God's truth that we know today has always been true.

 

[Hedgehog]

Ok one more lol

think on this.

Abraham was saved by faith.

Do a word search on "ancient", because when God talks about the ancient things/ways, He is talking about placing your trust in simple faith, NOT the whole system that Israel had created.

Pro 22:28 Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.

Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.

Eph, WHO IS THIS ANCIENT NATION?

Jer 5:15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it [is] a mighty nation, it [is] an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

I'll tell you who it is. Its the nation of FAITHFUL people. The ethnic Jews would not understand their language ( this has already happened) and they would still believe in a works based system, instead of seeing the true spiritualness of God's truth.

Jer 18:15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways [from] the ancient paths, to walk in paths, [in] a way not cast up;

they stumbled from the ancient (faith) path.

Take another look at what was said to the Hebrews about what they were doing-


Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept [them]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


The falsehoods that the Hebrews were doing robbed the entire REAL nation. The real nation is the people of faith. It had caused people to go so astray and to BELIEVE all these falsehoods that the Hebrews were doing.

I have no idea AT ALL why you would want to believe that ethnic Israel was right at all and that whole system has any place in coming back.

I know, I know... you're going to say " because God says so', but... He doesnt.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Hedgehog,

Good posts. Thank you.