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Is cessationism now a dated worldview that belongs to a past age

NorrinRadd

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...My background is library information (unfortunately degree no use when living out in the country) which explains why online so frequently people assume I am male (do I type too logically or factually or something)?! :doh: ...

No, it's the "Joey" part. I don't know what Bib's excuse is, but those of us not in or from Australia think of that first as a guy's name, not a baby 'roo. (I, however, noticed the girly pink sex icon, so I knew you were a "she," not a "he.")
 
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Biblicist

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I am the *wife*. :D The wife of a shiftworker and Mum of two teenagers. Typing is generally done on the run. I tend to use the desktop for real entries.
It seems that even though I knew that you were a female, given that I am new to this forum and after a few hot sleepless nights I simply went by the “Joey” part as well.

“NorrinRadd”, yes, we Australians also see “Joey” as a male descriptor. I’ve heard that our northern neighbours (Queensland) have an affinity with kangaroos in that their children supposedly ride kangaroos to school as it can give them a ‘hop-skip & jump’ to their day! If the rumour is true, the younger children ride the smaller ‘greys’ while the older children ride the large six foot reds; some people apparently prefer Emu's as they have a wider body and as they are covered with feathers it apparently gives them a more comfortable ride – or so the story goes!
 
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joey_downunder

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I’ve heard that our northern neighbours (Queensland) have an affinity with kangaroos in that their children supposedly ride kangaroos to school as it can give them a ‘hop-skip & jump’ to their day! If the rumour is true, the younger children ride the smaller ‘greys’ while the older children ride the large six foot reds; some people apparently prefer Emu's as they have a wider body and as they are covered with feathers it apparently gives them a more comfortable ride – or so the story goes!
That sounds like a modified kangaroo/wallaby version of those dangerous dropbears that Australians rightly warn foreigners about. Seriously though people should be more careful with kangaroos especially male ones. Google dangerous male kangaroo attacks.

This is the type of joey I meant.
 
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Biblicist

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That sounds like a modified kangaroo/wallaby version of those dangerous dropbears that Australians rightly warn foreigners about...
That was a very informative link regarding those scurrilious dropbears. The map was certainly informative and I was surprised to see that Tasmania suffered from this horrible scourge - though I have heard that they have major problems with "loop snakes"; for our US readers, loop (or hoop) snakes have a nasty habit of biting their tails so that they act like a wheel which helps them to chase unwary tourists down a hill.

PS. It can be hard to prove the existence of 'loop snakes' as the action of biting their tales (I mean "tails") tends to have a rather nasty side effect on the breed.
 
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Biblicist

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What many people do not seem to know about Australia is that since 1960 we have been able to utilise falcons as a mode of transport, this tends to be a much more practical option than with the problematic kangaroos and emus. Their fairly easy to recognise as over more recent times many of our falcons seem to have a strong silver appearance.
 
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Biblicist

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I'm not quite where you are. I think both "baptize(d) in the (Holy) Spirit" and "receive(d) the (Holy) Spirit" are used differently in different places. I'll elaborate later, assuming I don't forget.
Having gone back and read through my post I can understand your uncertainty with my position.

For anyone to be able to legitimately claim to be within the classic-Pentecostal fold, they would have to believe in the “two-stage” reception theory of the Holy Spirit, in that one is first ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit and at some later time they are then Baptised in (or with) the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

As I was one of millions during the charismatic renewal of the 60’s and 70’s who was first born again and then later on experienced the ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), I can well understand how Pentecost had developed this viewpoint as my ‘second’ experience of the Holy Spirit was certainly dramatic and it definitely had a far greater impact on me than had my initial salvation experience, which I thought even at the time was more of a change in mindset than anything else.

In my view the classic-Pentecostal viewpoint reflects more an ‘accident of history’ in that for many Believers of the 20th century and particularly for those who came through the worldwide charismatic renewal, it can be very easy for us to see our initial salvation experience (where we receive the Holy Spirit) and then maybe years later all of a sudden being able to pray in tongues as being two distinct experiences. This would be the reason why it took me so long to come to the position that the Scriptures speak of the BHS as being essentially soteriological in nature in that the BHS should ideally be how we receive the Holy Spirit at our regeneration and not at some later date.

As with many of my generation, it seems that the most common question that we had for our more experienced brethren was “How do I know that I have received the Holy Spirit?” The standard answer to this was always “because the Bible tells us so” which for many of us wasn’t really a reassuring reply but once I began to speak in tongues this left me with absolutely no doubt that I had the Holy Spirit within me. In my opinion, anyone who can speak in tongues who later questions if they have received the Holy Spirit, they may as well ask “How do I know that I really exist”.
 
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joey_downunder

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As with many of my generation, it seems that the most common question that we had for our more experienced brethren was “How do I know that I have received the Holy Spirit?” The standard answer to this was always “because the Bible tells us so” which for many of us wasn’t really a reassuring reply but once I began to speak in tongues this left me with absolutely no doubt that I had the Holy Spirit within me. In my opinion, anyone who can speak in tongues who later questions if they have received the Holy Spirit, they may as well ask “How do I know that I really exist”.
Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions. :)

Personal side to it all - before surgery I had all the feelings of God's presence in Charismatic services AND personal prayer, speaking in tongues and so on. Afterwards I lost all feelings and felt flat and empty in those *same* services/situations. It actually contributed to a lot of my falling away. (Backsliding into sin is what kept me there for a long period of time though.) That started the whole "how much is biological, how much is emotional, how much is genuinely spiritual (whether from God or deceptive spirits) ....." questioning.

When I pretty well re-converted after briefly hearing Gospel preached on sidewalk I returned to the local Assembly of God church in Viewbank Melbourne. There I saw everyone appearing to experience God still, probably the talented musicians contributed a lot to the service's atmosphere. I still felt nothing but I concentrated on the preaching instead. I often felt dissatisfied.

I got involved in a women's bible study group and everyone of them told me when I questioned how they knew it was God speaking to them, they were really speaking in tongues and/or miracles were really happening in their healing ministry - they just "knew" via feelings. It left me very disillusioned with it all. The ones who believed in continuation of spiritual gifts often were the ones who didn't know much about the bible. I found out afterwards (I had moved away to another town very far away in WA )that several had left the church or healing ministry (one no longer believed in Hell, one separated from husband) - and they were the ones who claimed to feel (and appeared genuine in this belief) the Holy Spirit's presence the most.

In the very remote town I wasn't able to attend church so I had to rely on sermons online. There I came across a radio show (Fighting for the Faith) that is completely focused on discernment, apologetics and comparing what "people are saying about God in the name of God". Consistently the very worst news stories/ sermons reviewed are the ones fixated on signs and wonders and feeling the Holy Spirit/speaking in tongues including the Australian C3 Church and Hillsong Church.

Surely if the preachers/denominations that testify they are touched by the Holy Spirit/signs and wonders should be the best and holiest preachers and Christians of all? That is a very sincere question. The most fervent "living out their faith" Christians - the ones who voluntarily do unpaid missionary work etc. I have known are non-Charismatics. Why is that so?
 
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Biblicist

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Surely if the preachers/denominations that testify they are touched by the Holy Spirit/signs and wonders should be the best and holiest preachers and Christians of all? That is a very sincere question.
Except for the question of experiencing “signs & wonders” I couldn’t agree more, what a great question!

I think that it would be reasonably safe to say that considering the current condition of many congregations in our country who would place themselves under the Full Gospel banner, that this would be primarily in name only and not so much experientially. This can be hard to adequately (and briefly) address on a forum such as this but up until the last couple of weeks, as I have a very strong interest with Full Gospel theology I have spent virtually all my time over in the charismatic forum and on numerous occasions I have addressed your question within specific contexts.

Just today while having a cup of coffee with some friends in our church cafeteria, I mentioned that I feel that I am much like many others who feel that they are “on hold” as the church in general seems to be a bit flat in the western world as it has seemingly moved as an almost solid block into the worldly ‘seeker-sensitive’ ethos. Being someone who has endeavoured to gain a strong understanding with the subject of Pneumatology, this all requires some knowledge of Full Gospel ecclesiology and an awareness of church history, especially with that of the Full Gospel movement of the past century or so. As such, I am conscious that from within the western church, as against that of the Third-world church that we can hardly hold ourselves up as being a shining beacon of light to the rest of the world, in fact, far from it.

Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions.
Except for the “pro-signs” element, considering the amount of time that I have spent in addressing Full Gospel theology then all I can say is … glad to be able to help!

The most fervent Christians I have known are non-Charismatics. Why is that so?
It would be fair to say, that even many experientially cessationist commentators will often bemoan the fact that from their experience that the Pentecostals and charismatics tend to show a greater spiritual passion and dedication than do those who are within their own ranks. This can certainly be evidenced by contrasting the “New Calvinists” with the “Old Calvinists” and this can be seen in post #2 with the Youtube link to Mark Driscoll.

Having come to the Lord in 1972 and later embracing the fullness of the Spirit in 1974, it seems that your experience is the exact opposite of mine. In my opinion the more fervent Believers have always been those who have embraced the fullness of the Spirit which includes the ability to be able to pray in the Spirit. This was what first attracted me to the charismatic renewal in that as a new Believer who was very active in our cities church youth scene, all that I could really see around me was a rather dull and lifeless spirituality, one which did not seem to match that of the New Testament record – not that I could really understand this ‘record’ but it was not hard to figure out that not all was well around me. When I began to read about the incredible outpouring of the Holy Spirit throughout the world and then beginning to meet “those” charismatics, all of a sudden I encountered a people who seemed to understand what it meant to walk in the Spirit.

Over the years whenever I have encountered anyone in congregations that I have been a part of who have spoken out against the primary aspects of the Full Gospel, I have noted that they tend to be the fairly ‘dry’ individuals when it comes to spiritual vibrancy and that they seem to struggle with understanding most activities of the Holy Spirit.

Of course there are always two sides to any coin, which means that there have been many occasions where I had hoped that some individuals from within my circles would take up a call to the frozen Antarctic.

Consistently the very worst news stories/ sermons reviewed are the ones fixated on signs and wonders and feeling the Holy Spirit/speaking in tongues including the Australian C3 Church and Hillsong Church.
Who was the Evangelical (non-charismatic) mega-church about two weeks ago in the USA whose minister was sacked for having an affair with a sixteen year old girl? Whenever I read the numerous articles that I receive online from say Charisma magazine and Christianity today (along with others), it seems that the non-charismatic sector of the church is plagued with its own problems but the media seems to be a bit overly fixated with the Pentecostal and charismatic movement. When it comes to the many once great historical denominations, they seem to be struggling against the prevalence of homosexual activity within their ranks along with other forms of immoral behaviour and financial irregularities.

Leaving aside the often eccentric sermons that come out of some sectors of the Full Gospel movement; with the more academic material that is produced by Full Gospel academics then this type of material is held in high regard which should be no surprise as Pneumatology is the realm that is dominated by either Full Gospel academics or with those who are deemed to be "open-but-cautious".
Personal side to it all - before brain surgery I had all the feelings of God's presence in Charismatic services AND personal prayer, speaking in tongues and so on. Afterwards I lost all feelings and felt flat and empty in those *same* services/situations. It actually contributed to a lot of my falling away. (Atheists would just love my story. Backsliding into sin is what kept me there for a long period of time) That started the whole "how much is biological, how much is emotional, how much is genuinely spiritual (whether from God or deceptive spirits) ....."
When I pretty well re-converted after briefly hearing Gospel preached on sidewalk I returned to the local Assembly of God church in Viewbank Melbourne.
Would that have been the old Eltham AOG on Main Road? If this was the case I’m aware that this congregation has had a very troubled history to the point where they have now become a part of the Planet Shakers operation. For that matter, many AOG congregations here in Melbourne have been less than impressive to the point where I would hardly call the AOG (which is now the Australian Christian Churches) as being Pentecostal.
There I saw everyone appearing to experience God still, probably the talented musicians contributed a lot to the service's atmosphere. I still felt nothing but I concentrated on the preaching instead. I often felt dissatisfied.
Here’s where I have had the advantage of experiencing some great spiritual vitality having been a part of the earlier charismatic renewal – though this particular time period seems to be getting further and further along in history with every year that goes by! I have to say that I do feel sorry for many such as yourself who may have joined a supposed Pentecostal congregation and for most part not much occurs past a bit of “talking the talk”. How often have I heard song leaders say “I feel the presence of the Lord” where their feeling was in reality more a result of an increase in tempo and with a few drawn out “Prai….se theeeee Lorrrrrd brothers and sisters!” If you’ve been to any of the dying ACC (the old AOG) congregations who have given their building and assets to Hillsong, the first thing that Hillsong does is to paint the walls and ceiling black and install a massive (though often an impressive) sound system - and hey presto, instant revival! Well, so they would like to think.

--------------
I haven't answered some of your questions in your earlier post and hopefully I will be able to do so in a day or so.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions. :)

Personal side to it all - before surgery I had all the feelings of God's presence in Charismatic services AND personal prayer, speaking in tongues and so on. Afterwards I lost all feelings and felt flat and empty in those *same* services/situations. It actually contributed to a lot of my falling away. (Backsliding into sin is what kept me there for a long period of time though.) That started the whole "how much is biological, how much is emotional, how much is genuinely spiritual (whether from God or deceptive spirits) ....." questioning.

I identify with some of this. I have had occasional episodes of depersonalization/derealization ("dp/dr," not to be read as a Differential Calculus expression) with a hint of "Alice in Wonderland Syndrome" since adolescence. (Google them, or if you wish, I can provide some links.) By "occasional," I mean once every few years I would have an episode lasting maybe 15 minutes. I went about 20 years with none, then several years ago had a significant one that partially persisted for several months. While it persisted, it really adversely impacted my "sense" (for lack of any good term) of the presence of God, and made any sort of praying feel unbearably weird. My sleep-wake cycle has always been a bit off, and this has increased as I've gotten older. I'm very hesitant to try to "force" it to be normal, as I've found that can cause problems, including at least "mini" bouts of dp/dr.


When I pretty well re-converted after briefly hearing Gospel preached on sidewalk I returned to the local Assembly of God church in Viewbank Melbourne. There I saw everyone appearing to experience God still, probably the talented musicians contributed a lot to the service's atmosphere. I still felt nothing but I concentrated on the preaching instead. I often felt dissatisfied.

I got involved in a women's bible study group and everyone of them told me when I questioned how they knew it was God speaking to them, they were really speaking in tongues and/or miracles were really happening in their healing ministry - they just "knew" via feelings.

I resist calling it "feelings," since it is not what most people mean when they use that term. It is not a physical sensation, it is not an emotion, and it is not a mood. It is a perception of some other sort. It is a conviction, but one not derived from logic and reasoning.


It left me very disillusioned with it all. The ones who believed in continuation of spiritual gifts often were the ones who didn't know much about the bible. I found out afterwards (I had moved away to another town very far away in WA) that several had left the church or healing ministry (one no longer believed in Hell, one separated from husband) - and they were the ones who claimed to feel (and appeared genuine in this belief) the Holy Spirit's presence the most.

There are a few factors in play here. For one thing, at a "grass roots" level, there is still some mutual distrust and animosity between Pentecostals and traditional "mainline" denominations. The early Pentecostals read the Bible, believed it, and couldn't see any reason why the same experiences should not be occurring now. In their view, the traditionalists were better at "explaining away" Scripture than believing and doing it, so their "education" was of dubious value. Meanwhile, the traditionalists looked at the Pentecostals as irreverent and disorderly, and considered them too uneducated to possibly understand Scripture properly. Some of that thinking persists, though as has been noted, Pentecostalism now has its share of astute scholars.

Another factor is that many Pentecostals and Charismatics know Scripture very well in terms of "content" and "chapter and verse," but are shaky in terms of exegesis. Instead of considering text within context, they too often either "proof text" or else the polar opposite, search for spooky hidden esoteric messages "behind" the text.

A third problem is a "zap" mentality. Since they know by experience that God does often show up and miraculously "zap" problems away, they don't know how to handle the times when He does NOT do that.


In the very remote town I wasn't able to attend church so I had to rely on sermons online. There I came across a radio show (Fighting for the Faith) that is completely focused on discernment, apologetics and comparing what "people are saying about God in the name of God". Consistently the very worst news stories/ sermons reviewed are the ones fixated on signs and wonders and feeling the Holy Spirit/speaking in tongues including the Australian C3 Church and Hillsong Church.

That may reflect selection bias on the part of the people running the radio show. Pentecostals and Charismatics certainly have plenty of problems. But I don't think it would take me much time or effort to find a big list of Baptist preachers who dived headfirst into the muck. And just recently, a Lutheran preschool or daycare center had to close because during "nap time," the STAFF, not just the kids, were napping, and while they were asleep, some of the little kids were engaging in sex play! :doh:


Surely if the preachers/denominations that testify they are touched by the Holy Spirit/signs and wonders should be the best and holiest preachers and Christians of all? That is a very sincere question.

The Corinthians were engaged in some egregious sexual misconduct, among other issues, and yet had copious supernatural activity of the Spirit. Paul disciplined their misconduct and gave them instructions for better order in regard to using the Spirit's gifts, but never denied the manifestations really WERE the Spirit.


The most fervent "living out their faith" Christians - the ones who voluntarily do unpaid missionary work etc. I have known are non-Charismatics. Why is that so?

When I was at Penn State back in the '80s, my impression was that the most "evangelistic" groups were Baptists (not Charismatic), AG (Pentecostal), and my CMA (Christian and Missionary Alliance). The local CMA campus fellowship was "lightly" Charismatic; the denomination as a whole is sort of ambivalent to the gifts, even though it still officially affirms divine healing, and its founder A.B. Simpson was pretty close to radical in terms of his teaching on "faith healing."

Here at home, I'm in a smallish (about 8000 people) town in western PA. It's a very churchy area. Without breaking a sweat, I can think of one large Catholic church, an Eastern Orthodox church, two Lutheran churches, three Presbyterian churches, a Methodist church, a Free Methodist church, two Baptist churches, a CMA church, a Christian Church, a Church of Christ, a Church of God, a Lilyville Church of God, and at least six Pentecostal or Charismatic churches. I'm not sure of the situation now, but back in the late '80s, most of the active evangelism was done by two of the Pentecostal churches and one of the Baptist churches.
 
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joey_downunder

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I'll have to come back later (school lunches) but this needed attention ASAP!
Would that have been the old Eltham AOG on Main Road? If this was the case I’m aware that this congregation has had a very troubled history to the point where they have now become a part of the Planet Shakers operation. For that matter, many AOG congregations here in Melbourne have been less than impressive to the point where I would hardly call the AOG (which is now the Australian Christian Churches) as being Pentecostal.
I think it is! :o I checked the Google map and it is the closest church I could find to Yallambie that fitted the AOG prototype! You know you have just provided the first thing that made me glad I moved away from Melbourne. If that church did change hands to Planetshakers - if I knew then what I know now - there is NO way I could go there.

I don't know what it is but Australian churches seem to have made dishonorable mentions consistently. Planetshakers is the only other Australian church I remember whose sermons have been reviewed by that USA show. Fighting for the Faith: God Wants to Dream With You?!? (starts 1 hour 16 minutes - Narcigesis refers to narcissistic eisegesis - reading yourself into scriptural passages that have nothing to do with you.)

Yes Fighting for the Faith is very conservative and listeners have to remember that he holds the conservative Lutheran viewpoint. Charismatic denominations are not singled out solely though. Seeker-sensitive churches and Liberal/ Emergent churches also come heavily under fire. Probably because I'm an ex-Charismatic I think the first group's are worst. :p (I have heard all the lingo before and now because I know the scriptures in context I groan even before he says anything!)
 
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joey_downunder

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Except for the question of experiencing “signs & wonders” I couldn’t agree more, what a great question!
I probably think of "signs and wonders" when I think of Charismatic beliefs because of very long conversations with a Charismatic who was totally infatuated with Rick Joyner and other NAR/WoF prophets. Are they Charismaniacs not Charismatic Christians? Would you say they were take Charismatic beliefs out-of-context and put them into a totally different galaxy?
I think that it would be reasonably safe to say that considering the current condition of many congregations in our country who would place themselves under the Full Gospel banner, that this would be primarily in name only and not so much experientially.
Are they people who believe the 21st century church should be like the very early church (Book of Acts)?
Just today while having a cup of coffee with some friends in our church cafeteria, I mentioned that I feel that I am much like many others who feel that they are “on hold” as the church in general seems to be a bit flat in the western world as it has seemingly moved as an almost solid block into the worldly ‘seeker-sensitive’ ethos.
I think so. Australians are extremely materialistic and skeptical about spiritual things overall. Do you think seeker sensitive churches seem to look for the right bait to attract non-believers and even Charismatic churches have resorted to minimising "what sounds weird at first to the non-spiritual" doctrines in their sermons to keep their audiences attending?
As such, I am conscious that from within the western church, as against that of the Third-world church that we can hardly hold ourselves up as being a shining beacon of light to the rest of the world, in fact, far from it.
Like my local pastor says people are too comfortable to be hungry for God. I live in a mining town district and people are way worse here (like in the Pilbara WA) than more average towns in Australia.
[QUOTEIt would be fair to say, that even many experientially cessationist commentators will often bemoan the fact that from their experience that the Pentecostals and charismatics tend to show a greater spiritual passion and dedication than do those who are within their own ranks.
Maybe one extreme to the other? Overly practical messages (e.g. family advice) and/or too theological (over average person's head) and too little about the Holy Spirit?
Having come to the Lord in 1972 and later embracing the fullness of the Spirit in 1974, it seems that your experience is the exact opposite of mine. In my opinion the more fervent Believers have always been those who have embraced the fullness of the Spirit which includes the ability to be able to pray in the Spirit.
Yes it does seem that way. I went from somewhat Charismatic friendly to the other side when I found that experiences described as essential didn't match what I lost post-surgery. Bible and other teachings finished off the last bit of Continuationism belief system.
This was what first attracted me to the charismatic renewal in that as a new Believer who was very active in our cities church youth scene, all that I could really see around me was a rather dull and lifeless spirituality, one which did not seem to match that of the New Testament record – not that I could really understand this ‘record’ but it was not hard to figure out that not all was well around me.
Same here. I was brought up a Catholic and only went to Catholic schools. Nothing deader than Catholic masses. When I was a teenage I went to several Charismatic services with an acquaintance and then Baptist church with other Uni students for a while (then got into a very bad relationship and backslid for a long time).
When I began to read about the incredible outpouring of the Holy Spirit throughout the world and then beginning to meet “those” charismatics, all of a sudden I encountered a people who seemed to understand what it meant to walk in the Spirit.
I have never had any doubt of Charismatics' sincerity. Other than Baptists I have never known people as serious about their faith. :)
Of course there are always two sides to any coin, which means that there have been many occasions where I had hoped that some individuals from within my circles would take up a call to the frozen Antarctic.
I noticed that several very extreme Charismatics had personal problems/severe issues from the past - do you think unresolved hurts would be a factor in this? i.e. seeking God's presence to heal pain?
Whenever I read the numerous articles that I receive online from say Charisma magazine and Christianity today (along with others), it seems that the non-charismatic sector of the church is plagued with its own problems but the media seems to be a bit overly fixated with the Pentecostal and charismatic movement.
Yes whether pro or anti-Charismatic, every Christian is still a sinner.
I would say the media focuses (perhaps unfairly) on Charismatic movement because I can't think of one televangelist who is NOT a Charismatic. It is all the non-believers see on TV when channel-surfing. The extreme ones/bad news stories are the ones people remember.
Leaving aside the often eccentric sermons that come out of some sectors of the Full Gospel movement; with the more academic material that is produced by Full Gospel academics then this type of material is held in high regard which should be no surprise as Pneumatology is the realm that is dominated by either Full Gospel academics or with those who are deemed to be "open-but-cautious".
I really hope that thinking Charismatics take control of the whole movement then. From what I have seen on TV and online the loonies have taken control of the asylum and things look completely crazy to any outsider especially atheists (like my husband).
I have to say that I do feel sorry for many such as yourself who may have joined a supposed Pentecostal congregation and for most part not much occurs past a bit of “talking the talk”....If you’ve been to any of the dying ACC (the old AOG) congregations who have given their building and assets to Hillsong, the first thing that Hillsong does is to paint the walls and ceiling black and install a massive (though often an impressive) sound system - and hey presto, instant revival!
It does sound like I have seen a lot of the counterfeit then in recent years (after surgery timeslot) before I gave up on AOG/nondenominational churches altogether. The church I went in Townsville seemed pretty genuine from memory however (from late 90s, surgery 1999, left church end 2002 when moved to Toowoomba due to husband's army posting). Friendly to speaking in tongues, healing ministry and so on.

Please don't misunderstand - I am open to God through His extreme kindness answering prayers, miracles happening, healing spiritual pains miraculously via the Holy Spirit's ministry, even people occasionally speaking in tongues when it is God's will to do so. However I disagree with the belief that all Christians can still do what the apostles and the very early church did before the bible was completely finalised.

P.S. I have no idea why it italicized the first half. Very frustrating.
 
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joey_downunder

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I identify with some of this. I have had occasional episodes of depersonalization/derealization ("dp/dr," not to be read as a Differential Calculus expression) with a hint of "Alice in Wonderland Syndrome" since adolescence. (Google them, or if you wish, I can provide some links.) By "occasional," I mean once every few years I would have an episode lasting maybe 15 minutes. I went about 20 years with none, then several years ago had a significant one that partially persisted for several months. While it persisted, it really adversely impacted my "sense" (for lack of any good term) of the presence of God, and made any sort of praying feel unbearably weird. My sleep-wake cycle has always been a bit off, and this has increased as I've gotten older. I'm very hesitant to try to "force" it to be normal, as I've found that can cause problems, including at least "mini" bouts of dp/dr.
Have you noticed any other factors? A woman I knew a few years back had similar feelings to me (very early stages of aura) after too way much coffee. For me it was always overtiredness, stress and like her too much coffee.
I am very suspicious now that my emotional/spiritual centres were extremely overactivated from the scar tissue/misfiring -> overactivation of temporal lobe -> mystical "feeling directly touched by God" experiences. When the seizures were well-controlled (and after lobectomy was done) the experiences and interest in things spiritual levelled off a fair bit.

Note: apostle Paul often wondered about about neuropsychologists- I answered my own question years ago when conversing with an atheist. If Paul hearing from Jesus in Acts 9 was purely delusional/epileptic fit induced then why would the apostles accept Paul as one of them, even so far as apostle Peter accepting correction from him in Galatians 2?
I resist calling it "feelings," since it is not what most people mean when they use that term. It is not a physical sensation, it is not an emotion, and it is not a mood. It is a perception of some other sort. It is a conviction, but one not derived from logic and reasoning.
That sounds similar what I experience now. Sudden insight and memory of scripture or what keyword to search for etc. Also a fair few times I have read or watched something and a day or so later someone on the forum enquires about that same topic. "Just by chance" my atheist husband would say. :)
There are a few factors in play here. For one thing, at a "grass roots" level, there is still some mutual distrust and animosity between Pentecostals and traditional "mainline" denominations. The early Pentecostals read the Bible, believed it, and couldn't see any reason why the same experiences should not be occurring now...... Some of that thinking persists, though as has been noted, Pentecostalism now has its share of astute scholars.
I think a lot of the mainline denominations have gone astray because they aren't doing what you describe what the Pentecostals did. i.e. more liberal/worldly in doctrine. The other denominations e.g. this Baptist church I currently attend seem to believe the Bible but interpret same passages very differently perhaps?
Another factor is that many Pentecostals and Charismatics know Scripture very well in terms of "content" and "chapter and verse," but are shaky in terms of exegesis. Instead of considering text within context, they too often either "proof text" or else the polar opposite, search for spooky hidden esoteric messages "behind" the text.
Yes that is the major issue behind my movement from Charismatic -style thinking (other than experiences gone). When the whole passage and context looked at the contradiction between their teachings and the bible is often extremely noticeable; for me as noticeable as the Roman Catholic Church's doctrines about Mary, purgatory, saints and so on.
A third problem is a "zap" mentality. Since they know by experience that God does often show up and miraculously "zap" problems away, they don't know how to handle the times when He does NOT do that.
My other issue! Special prayers, laying on of hands, and declaring the disease to leave me did NOT resolve my issues. I was then told I mustn't have had enough faith. My surgeon said there was scar tissue but one friend said I should have had more faith and then God would have dealt with it. :doh:
That may reflect selection bias on the part of the people running the radio show. Pentecostals and Charismatics certainly have plenty of problems. But I don't think it would take me much time or effort to find a big list of Baptist preachers who dived headfirst into the muck.
Like I said in my other entry that is why it is best to understand the other person's perspective before assuming they are completely wrong/right.
Paul disciplined their misconduct and gave them instructions for better order in regard to using the Spirit's gifts, but never denied the manifestations really WERE the Spirit.
That's a very good point. :) I am trying hard to remember that counterfeits mean there must be a genuine one out there. Unfortunately in my own experience I have never seen this firsthand.
Here at home, I'm in a smallish (about 8000 people) town in western PA. It's a very churchy area. ..... I'm not sure of the situation now, but back in the late '80s, most of the active evangelism was done by two of the Pentecostal churches and one of the Baptist churches.
Wow that's a lot of churches. It must be a USA cultural thing. What's the church attendance statistics like?
Yes the most living out their faith people I have known have been Pentecostals and Baptists. Polar opposites in some doctrines but sincerity the same. I never was impressed by nominal Christians that seem to be common amongst churches that explain away difficult passages e.g. ones which offend the politically correct people out there.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Elaborating on my comments at the end of (I think) Post 20...

John seems to use "baptize in the Spirit" in a soteriological sense. First of all, it occurs in a context where the nearest explanatory expression is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

In various of his books, Keener makes the case that John 3:3-8 alludes to Jewish proselyte baptism by which the convert was symbolically reborn, and that 3:5 should be translated, "unless one is born of water, that is, the Spirit," meaning it would be a soteriological reference to Spirit-baptism.

By comparison to 4:10-14, John 7:37-39 seems to use "receive the Spirit" in a soteriological sense.

Because it pretty clearly alludes to 3:8, Eze. 37, and to the original animating of Adam, John 20:22 seems to use "receive the Spirit" soteriologically. OTOH, it also seems to be linked to the authority to forgive sins, which is the closest John comes to recording the Great Commission.

Because of the implied contrast between baptism in the purifying fire of the Spirit with the destructive fire of final judgment, Matt. 3 seems to use "baptize in the Holy Spirit" soteriologically.

In his first volume, Luke (3) records the same speech as Matthew, and so uses the term soteriologically. However in his second volume, Acts (1-2) he clearly applies it to prophetic empowering in order to fulfill the Great Commission. He also (Acts 2:31) uses "receive the Spirit" in that prophetic empowering sense. In Acts 10-11, salvation and prophetic empowering are mingled together, and "baptize in the Spirit" and "receive the Spirit" each are used to cover the mingled event. In Acts 19:2, there is no mention of "baptize in the Spirit." Only "receive the Spirit" is used, and it refers primarily to prophetic empowerment.

In 1 Cor. 12:13, Paul clearly uses "baptize in the Spirit" in a soteriological sense. It is that event that initiates one into the body of Christ. However, it is also clear that he associates this with the opportunity to experience the Spirit's supernatural enabling, given the contents of the next three chapters.


I take the view that each author had some unique theological perspectives and agendas, and so wrote accordingly. I believe Luke had a goal of portraying the Church collectively as paralleling and continuing Christ's earthly ministry. So John the Baptist foretold the soon coming of Jesus, then the Spirit descended on Jesus to the accompaniment of signs from Heaven, then Jesus began His ministry in the power of the Spirit. And at His ascension, Jesus commissioned the Church and foretold the coming of the Spirit, then weeks later the Spirit descended on them to the accompaniment of signs from Heaven, and they began speaking and working by the power of the Spirit. Luke did not deny the Spirit's role in salvation, that just was not his focus.

I take John 20:22 in its most natural sense -- that the disciples were regenerated/reanimated by the Spirit right then and there, and thus by John's usage "baptized in the Spirit" at that time and place.

I also take Luke 24 and Acts 1-2 in their most natural senses -- that the disciples did not experience the prophetic empowering of the Spirit until Pentecost, and so by Luke's usage in this context, were "baptized in the Spirit" there and then.

I think the problem comes when we try to impose a "systematic theology" sort of consistency on all the accounts and make them all mean the same thing. The traditional Pentecostal view is that Spirit-baptism MUST refer ONLY to empowerment, and it MUST be "separate and subsequent" relative to rebirth (salvation). That forces strained interpretations of Acts 10-11 and 1 Cor. 12:13. And the traditional non-Pentecostal view is that Spirit-baptism MUST refer to salvation/rebirth. That forces strained interpretation of John 20:22 and Acts 19.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Have you noticed any other factors? A woman I knew a few years back had similar feelings to me (very early stages of aura) after too way much coffee. For me it was always overtiredness, stress and like her too much coffee.
I am very suspicious now that my emotional/spiritual centres were extremely overactivated from the scar tissue/misfiring -> overactivation of temporal lobe -> mystical "feeling directly touched by God" experiences. When the seizures were well-controlled (and after lobectomy was done) the experiences and interest in things spiritual levelled off a fair bit.

I have history of "classic migraine," a.k.a. "migraine with aura." For a while in my 20s, I had about one migraine attack a month. After I started taking magnesium and B-complex supplements, they dropped to about one per year, and were less severe. (It also helped that I learned to "ease into" the day, rather than jumping out of bed and trying to immediately be active. I also learned that I'm one of the "lucky" ones who responds well to aspirin + caffeine if I gulp it down at the very first sign of aura.) I suspect my dp/dr and migraine tendencies are related. I know for a fact that one of my worst dp/dr episodes occurred a few years ago when the migraine aura started before I woke up for the day. That caused bizarre, ultra-realistic nightmares and a profound dp/dr state when I woke, and escalated to a panic attack before I could get a handle on it. Then in minutes the headache itself hit.

There are some interesting pages online that briefly address the odd, trivial things that can trigger dp/dr episodes in susceptible people -- things as innocuous as walking out of one room and into another. I normally wear a visor at home because over the years, my dad, while he was still alive, had a lot of overhead fluorescent lighting installed. I find it kind of unsettles me if I'm not wearing the visor. I can get that way in department stores, especially if the floors are shiny and reflective.


Note: apostle Paul often wondered about about neuropsychologists- I answered my own question years ago when conversing with an atheist. If Paul hearing from Jesus in Acts 9 was purely delusional/epileptic fit induced then why would the apostles accept Paul as one of them, even so far as apostle Peter accepting correction from him in Galatians 2?

Yeah, I'd heard that analysis. More than anything it reflects an anti-supernaturalist bias. And Paul is always a favorite target for critics because of his alleged sexism and bigotry.


I think a lot of the mainline denominations have gone astray because they aren't doing what you describe what the Pentecostals did. i.e. more liberal/worldly in doctrine. The other denominations e.g. this Baptist church I currently attend seem to believe the Bible but interpret same passages very differently perhaps?

Yes, there are many areas of differing interpretation. A couple of the major traditional Pentecostal denominations have a very high view of equality of the sexes, which some would consider a "liberal" stance. And my own understanding of "grace" vs. "law" is leading me to become much more liberal than typical Pentecostals.


Yes that is the major issue behind my movement from Charismatic -style thinking (other than experiences gone). When the whole passage and context looked at the contradiction between their teachings and the bible is often extremely noticeable; for me as noticeable as the Roman Catholic Church's doctrines about Mary, purgatory, saints and so on.

Out-of-context proof-texting (or promise-texting, or prayer-texting) set the stage for my rejection of "Word-Faith" beliefs.


My other issue! Special prayers, laying on of hands, and declaring the disease to leave me did NOT resolve my issues. I was then told I mustn't have had enough faith. My surgeon said there was scar tissue but one friend said I should have had more faith and then God would have dealt with it. :doh:

This is particularly a problem in groups that hold to "Word-Faith" theology. The AG has a Position Paper explicitly rejecting "Positive Confession," but individual AG pastors probably do still preach it. Calvary Chapel also explicitly rejects it, per some of their books and publications.

Wow that's a lot of churches. It must be a USA cultural thing. What's the church attendance statistics like?

Because of my sleep issues, I rarely attend church, and I'm about the only person I know who does NOT attend fairly often.

I chuckle when I hear people talk about the South as the "Bible Belt." They should look around western PA. The first time it really occurred to me was back around the early '90s. I was visiting a friend in a hospital in Pittsburgh, about an hour from my home. I looked out the hospital window, and no matter which direction I looked, every few blocks I saw a church. After that I paid closer attention and noticed that is at least as true here and in neighboring towns.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Hopefully I will be able to get back to this thread in a day or so as a lot of great points have been raised.

Please take your time. I have a "to do" stack piling up. :)
 
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