Is Capitalism Working?

[SkyWriting]

Given the actual threat of a socialist government in the UK that is truly Marxist in its instincts and a growing resentment across Western society to rich people I thought I should ask the question.

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

The point about Capitalism was that the concentration of wealth in the hands of various rich people is meant to encourage risks to be made for innovation. So Elon Musk is the only one really pushing for a Mars trip right now and the technological development required for that. Gates and Buffet are busy sorting out global tropical diseases. But there are increasing signs that Musk can be really idiotic and may yet throw away his freedom and ability to push the Mars vision cause of some silly court case. Also increasingly in big companies we see a stifling political correctness that seeks to eliminate extreme risks to a companies reputation in the market place, an unwillingness to invest in risky schemes and a massive and unearned inequality of pay.

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries

Rev 6:6
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The book of Amos seems to cite the social injustice that characterised latter day Israel (the Northern Kingdom) as a reason for her fall.

Reasons cited for the failure of capitalism as a system:

1) Failure to fund public services without a massive proliferation of costs e.g. the American health service.
2) Massive entrenched inequality accompanied by growing social immobility. Such that if you are born poor you die poor and if you are born rich your children will also most likely be rich.
3) A focus on luxuries at the expense of basics in many case leading to a growth of absolute poverty in poorer nations and shortages of basic necessities.
4) Failure to back meaningful risks associated with human expansion e.g. solar system wide space flight , research for the common good rather than profit e.g. expensive drugs for the rich but not cheap cures that work for all.
5) Social instability and disintegration caused by rising inequality. Leftist violence across Europe e.g. the recent G20 catastrophe in Hamburg is indicative of the rising sense of resentment against the entitled few.

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?

It's hard to see why space expansion is important, or how capitalism is failing at it.
I'd like to see underwater cities. This would refocus world efforts on ending pollution, conserving energy, social matters, food production....but mostly ending pollution in waterways would save the planet long term.

Space expansion just leads to a throw away mentality of leaving your trash behind. Underwater cities have the same challenges but much bigger benefits for improving society.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think my ethic requires equality of outcomes but we should be working for a society that focuses on broad human developmental goals that benefit everyone more-or-less equally.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I really do think in many ways Angela Merkel's Germany is more of a "leader of the free world" than the US right now.

You kidding me. What a joke. California alone can out perform Germany. Germans work harder for less money but we can still produce more then they can. Of course the game now is in robotics and 3D printers and it has always been a very close race between US and Germany, but we can still out perform them. There are things they are better at in Europe then we are here. But that is because we do not care. For example, American are always lamenting about how good thing were in the past. So we do not care all that much about a modern world right now. So even Shanghai in China is more modern then we are here.

 

[FireDragon76]

You kidding me. What a joke. California alone can out perform Germany. Germans work harder for less money but we can still produce more then they can. Of course the game now is in robotics and 3D printers and it has always been a very close race between US and Germany, but we can still out perform them. There are things they are better at in Europe then we are here. But that is because we do not care. For example, American are always lamenting about how good thing were in the past. So we do not care all that much about a modern world right now. So even Shanghai in China is more modern then we are here.

As a native Californian, I'm proud of my state, even if I don't actually live there, for very complicated reasons.

California politics creates the sort of dynamic economy that makes it a success story, just as in Germany. What doesn't work is the sort of mentality that is part of America's heartland and the south, which is rooted in a mixture of reactionary social conservativism and anarcho-captilaism.

 

[joshua 1 9]

It's hard to see why space expansion is important, or how capitalism is failing at it.
I'd like to see underwater cities. This would refocus world efforts on ending pollution, conserving energy, social matters, food production....but mostly ending pollution in waterways would save the planet long term.

Space expansion just leads to a throw away mentality of leaving your trash behind. Underwater cities have the same challenges but much bigger benefits for improving society.

The trend now is to build a big aquarium in your house. There are under water mansions in Heaven but it maybe a while before we see that here. Water is different there than it is here. Also the sand is different. They call it the crystal sea because the sand is made out of what we here on Earth would consider to be precious stones.

Although there are some beaches here with very colorful sand.

 

[joshua 1 9]

As a native Californian, I'm proud of my state, even if I don't actually live there, for very complicated reasons.

California politics creates the sort of dynamic economy that makes it a success story, just as in Germany. What doesn't work is the sort of mentality that is part of America's heartland and the south, which is rooted in a mixture of reactionary social conservativism and anarcho-captilaism.

The heartland still does research and development and we do tool and die to build the machines. Our per capita economy is comparable to California without having to result to selling inappropriate content. Although I understand Christianity is making a comeback in Hollywood and they are starting to head in the right direction now.

 

[Sabertooth]

Capitalism encourages people to get out and be productive and produce wealth.

I have two severely disabled adult children. 24yo. daughter has a mental age of 18 mos. 31yo. son, that of an 8yo. They have no sense of causation and, if required to work, would starve to death (and have no understanding why).

Even if you just handed money to my daughter, she would have no concept of what to do with it or its value. And they are part of an epidemic of regressive autistics.

I am a high-functioning autistic [HFA] (and topped all of my technical classes) who has been continuously unemployed or under-employed for all of my adult life. It seems that the constant threat of poverty still doesn't make me any more hire-able, either. And that is statistically significant among HFAs. (I actually like working in my related fields, when hired.)

I believe that capitalism is the better system (if you can get the work), but not in its most Darwinian, sink-or-swim form. There is not a job for everybody. That is why I prefer an augmented capitalism. That is, capitalism with minimal socialist safeguards.

 

[timewerx]

Well you may have a point there. Russian oligarchy both before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union is also a case in point. Saudi riches are concentrated in the hands of those connected to the Royal family and serve to preserve that pre-eminence. I have to wonder how many Chinese Communists got to be so rich.

There is tons of proof around the world. Same or similar economic system in place, good people running, very little or no poverty. Put the same system at the hands of corrupt, there's poverty and oppression / exploitation of the weak.

You have to remove the entire power structure for anything to work or change. All infection must be removed from power to prevent re-infection in the future through nepotism for example.

And perhaps start doing things differently than we did before.

 

[timewerx]

I believe that capitalism is the better system (if you can get the work), but not in its most Darwinian, sink-or-swim form. There is not a job for everybody. That is why I prefer an augmented capitalism. That is, capitalism with minimal socialist safeguards.

Yes indeed.

In Christ's telling of the Kingdom (Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard). It's a little bit capitalism but tons more of generosity and non-existent competition.

In the New Testament, the general context of worldly wealth, the only good use of it is to use it to help brothers and sisters (in Christ) who are in need. Not to use it or even just a portion of it to spend on self, to give ourselves materially abundant and comfortable lives, like Judas did.

I think those who love money will dislike such system. Because if you love money, you will dislike The Father and the Christ - Luke 16:13.

 

[Sabertooth]

People should experience bad consequences from making bad choices, but there are other causes for bad consequences that are outside of one's own control.

 

[mindlight]

It's ironic you are in Germany because I think modern Germany has the right approach generally, a mix of public and private investment and regulation of the economy for the common good.

I really do think in many ways Angela Merkel's Germany is more of a "leader of the free world" than the US right now. They are economically powerful, relatively egalitarian, and they have generally upheld the standard of western democracies in terms of political and social liberalism and human rights, which is more than what can be said for the current US regime.

Yes social democracy here in Germany works very well. Capitalism is allowed to thrive in order to fund the provision of excellent public services.

However I think big corporations have too much power and influence in the German system and not all the economic decisions made by the German government have been for the good of the people. The strength of the German economy is small to medium sized companies not its giant car firms. The European project has often led to massive expense for the German tax payer e.g. the bail out of the Greeks and indeed the German banks that lent so heavily to them. Germans have a very comfortable living standard but have not seen much in terms of wage increases in the last 10 years. Company profits and the German trade surplus have been booming. But the economy has no deficit and German influence around the world continues to expand and Germany is a healthier position than America right now.

 

[mindlight]

BP was a front for The National Iranian Oil Company a government-owned corporation under the direction of the Ministry of Petroleum of Iran. I consider that oil spill to be an act of war. We got it straightened out. I do not know what Obama was doing giving money to Iran. A lot of what he did does not make any sense.

I do hope you are joking cause otherwise this is appallingly ignorant. BP is British through and through. The last time Persian appeared in its title was when Britain was running the Middle East. That is a while a go no!!!!!

 

[mindlight]

It's hard to see why space expansion is important, or how capitalism is failing at it.
I'd like to see underwater cities. This would refocus world efforts on ending pollution, conserving energy, social matters, food production....but mostly ending pollution in waterways would save the planet long term.

Space expansion just leads to a throw away mentality of leaving your trash behind. Underwater cities have the same challenges but much bigger benefits for improving society.

Recycling will be pretty essential to any moon or Mars base. I am also a fan of underwater cities. NO reason why we cannot have both. It has taken very rich men like Bezos, Branson and Musk to kick start the space race again. Since Apollo lacking any political will for space the space industry has made very little actual technical progress while managing to inflate costs considerably beyond what people were willing to pay.

You could say that capitalism is working towards this goal with Musk and SpaceX particularly but the risk here is that Musk dies or gets arrested for something stupid he says on Twitter and then the company corporate mentality is to simply milk what is profitable to maximise the bottom line and to forget about the risky next step until somebody else has paid the price for it.

 

[mindlight]

You kidding me. What a joke. California alone can out perform Germany. Germans work harder for less money but we can still produce more then they can. Of course the game now is in robotics and 3D printers and it has always been a very close race between US and Germany, but we can still out perform them. There are things they are better at in Europe then we are here. But that is because we do not care. For example, American are always lamenting about how good thing were in the past. So we do not care all that much about a modern world right now. So even Shanghai in China is more modern then we are here.

California has 23% of people below the poverty line. The economy works very well for the richest people although your debt continues to rise, you run a trade deficit and your health care system is vastly more expensive without even being comprehensive. Interestingly you have a net out migration figure for 20 years now, the opposite of Germany. People obviously are finding opportunity elsewhere.

BUt I think I rest my case on Los Angeles public transport and traffic issues. There is nothing so bad in Germany.

 

[SkyWriting]

Recycling will be pretty essential to any moon or Mars base. I am also a fan of underwater cities. NO reason why we cannot have both. It has taken very rich men like Bezos, Branson and Musk to kick start the space race again. Since Apollo lacking any political will for space the space industry has made very little actual technical progress while managing to inflate costs considerably beyond what people were willing to pay.

You could say that capitalism is working towards this goal with Musk and SpaceX particularly but the risk here is that Musk dies or gets arrested for something stupid he says on Twitter and then the company corporate mentality is to simply milk what is profitable to maximise the bottom line and to forget about the risky next step until somebody else has paid the price for it.

Underwater cities are far safer. Space will never be colonized because one cast off aluminium can will destroy a colony of people zipping through space. And there are already enough pebbles scattered around naturally to wipe out any space explorers. Odds may be low, but the consequences quite high.

 

[afishamongmany]

Yea! This -

Nothing will work if corrupt men are running the country.

Both Capitalist and Socialist systems have positive aspects. But if corrupt men are running everything, neither will work. Neither a new system will work.

and this -

It's usury which is enslaving the poor, not Capitalism, and governments entering into debt they are not authorised to enter into. Prevent usury, and you will improve the system 50%. Prevent limitless taxation (10% was the biblical standard), and you will likely improve the rest. There's also the issue of governments not doing their duty (i.e. the exercise of justice, not economy meddling), but many of these things won't be solved until Jesus returns.

In this world, we will always have the poor, but Communism, like usury, makes slaves and paupers out of everyone, and via theft.

and this -

Big multinational corporations with risk averse policies, massive inequality of pay and ability to play governments are a problem in modern capitalism. Given that it is small start ups and medium sized companies that generate much of the wealth and jobs in an economy the temptation to pander to these corporations by governments may be self defeating in the long run. Politicians are scared of big headline closures with massive job losses in marginal constituencies. But sometimes they prop up losers or fail to hold the right people to account as a result. The 2008 financial crisis is a case in point. Many of those bankers who caused the initial overexposure and bad capital ratios of their banks and who profited from that were never held to account. While millions of others have suffered a decade of austerity as countries tried to fix the damage they caused.

And this-

Yes social democracy here in Germany works very well. Capitalism is allowed to thrive in order to fund the provision of excellent public services.

However I think big corporations have too much power and influence in the German system and not all the economic decisions made by the German government have been for the good of the people. The strength of the German economy is small to medium sized companies not its giant car firms. The European project has often led to massive expense for the German tax payer e.g. the bail out of the Greeks and indeed the German banks that lent so heavily to them. Germans have a very comfortable living standard but have not seen much in terms of wage increases in the last 10 years. Company profits and the German trade surplus have been booming. But the economy has no deficit and German influence around the world continues to expand and Germany is a healthier position than America right now.

The crucial, ever running question though is - How should christians respond to the blindingly obvious failures?? Especially those who are benefiting from those failures?
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[Brian Mcnamee]

Given the actual threat of a socialist government in the UK that is truly Marxist in its instincts and a growing resentment across Western society to rich people I thought I should ask the question.

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

The point about Capitalism was that the concentration of wealth in the hands of various rich people is meant to encourage risks to be made for innovation. So Elon Musk is the only one really pushing for a Mars trip right now and the technological development required for that. Gates and Buffet are busy sorting out global tropical diseases. But there are increasing signs that Musk can be really idiotic and may yet throw away his freedom and ability to push the Mars vision cause of some silly court case. Also increasingly in big companies we see a stifling political correctness that seeks to eliminate extreme risks to a companies reputation in the market place, an unwillingness to invest in risky schemes and a massive and unearned inequality of pay.

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries

Rev 6:6
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The book of Amos seems to cite the social injustice that characterised latter day Israel (the Northern Kingdom) as a reason for her fall.

Reasons cited for the failure of capitalism as a system:

1) Failure to fund public services without a massive proliferation of costs e.g. the American health service.
2) Massive entrenched inequality accompanied by growing social immobility. Such that if you are born poor you die poor and if you are born rich your children will also most likely be rich.
3) A focus on luxuries at the expense of basics in many case leading to a growth of absolute poverty in poorer nations and shortages of basic necessities.
4) Failure to back meaningful risks associated with human expansion e.g. solar system wide space flight , research for the common good rather than profit e.g. expensive drugs for the rich but not cheap cures that work for all.
5) Social instability and disintegration caused by rising inequality. Leftist violence across Europe e.g. the recent G20 catastrophe in Hamburg is indicative of the rising sense of resentment against the entitled few.

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?

Capitalism must be defined to engage in a discussion. I maintain we have corporate global cartels and mega banks which in not capitalism. The days of free enterprise and real investment with individuals owning and running small business is over. In the old days the term capital or money set aside to invest came from savings. That is money free and clear of all debts. The money used was silver and gold something that is key to understand that if you are using finite money instead of fiat money it creates a much more level playing field. Now debt is used as investment capital. Money can be created out of nothing and when business is booming debt is rising. This is the lie of Keynsian economics which is being used to consolidate power and wealth into the hands of a few. The NWO is going to be totalitarian and the large corporations are all behind it. This is certainly not capitalism but for them it is working and for the rest it is a shrinking piece of the pie with the mark of the beast at the end of the road.

 

[straykat]

Usury never works. I think 2008 proved that well enough.. but so did the whole 20th century. Even neolithic men probably could have figured that out, if they were crazy enough to have such a thing.

Other than that, what is in place now is definitely not even "capitalism". Where the people on top (Corporations and Banks) got the full of benefits of socialism (bailouts), while citizens had to work hard to foot the bill (capitalism).

 

[ananda]

Corporatism - and the State's protections for corporations - are the cancer which corrupts capitalism.

 

[eleos1954]

Given the actual threat of a socialist government in the UK that is truly Marxist in its instincts and a growing resentment across Western society to rich people I thought I should ask the question.

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

The point about Capitalism was that the concentration of wealth in the hands of various rich people is meant to encourage risks to be made for innovation. So Elon Musk is the only one really pushing for a Mars trip right now and the technological development required for that. Gates and Buffet are busy sorting out global tropical diseases. But there are increasing signs that Musk can be really idiotic and may yet throw away his freedom and ability to push the Mars vision cause of some silly court case. Also increasingly in big companies we see a stifling political correctness that seeks to eliminate extreme risks to a companies reputation in the market place, an unwillingness to invest in risky schemes and a massive and unearned inequality of pay.

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries

Rev 6:6
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The book of Amos seems to cite the social injustice that characterised latter day Israel (the Northern Kingdom) as a reason for her fall.

Reasons cited for the failure of capitalism as a system:

1) Failure to fund public services without a massive proliferation of costs e.g. the American health service.
2) Massive entrenched inequality accompanied by growing social immobility. Such that if you are born poor you die poor and if you are born rich your children will also most likely be rich.
3) A focus on luxuries at the expense of basics in many case leading to a growth of absolute poverty in poorer nations and shortages of basic necessities.
4) Failure to back meaningful risks associated with human expansion e.g. solar system wide space flight , research for the common good rather than profit e.g. expensive drugs for the rich but not cheap cures that work for all.
5) Social instability and disintegration caused by rising inequality. Leftist violence across Europe e.g. the recent G20 catastrophe in Hamburg is indicative of the rising sense of resentment against the entitled few.

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?

No, I do not agree because no comparison with other "systems" and their challenges were put forth.

Social justice as covered in the Bible is unobtainable here on earth. Social justice in the Holy Bible is defined by God ... and well ... not everyone believes in God ... nor can or should anyone be forced to. That is not His way.

Capitalism certainly is not perfect. Smaller government would be beneficial. Government has been increasingly infringing on capitalism for many years ... and it's interference has terribly degraded capitalism. We really don't have it anymore to a large degree. Who do you want to define and put laws in place and have the power over in regard to what you think, say and do? Big government oppresses the people it governs. Of course we do need some government. So with that, it would seem to be wise to reduce the size of our government and see how that goes. Least-wise it would be worth pursuing before trashing the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We have gotten far away from the original principles set forth therein .... that is why it is not working. We were founded on good principles .... we don't follow them .... and then complain about what's going on?

This country and it's laws are not perfect .. and we have done terrible things, and continue to do terrible things .. but no doubt we have had more freedom in this country than any other country that exists or has ever existed ... and that is eroding away quickly, because we don't, can't or won't stick to principles.

There is no perfect system because mankind is not perfect.

We will endure whatever comes down the pike and that is yet to be seen.

Mankind is a mess ;o)