Is Capitalism Working?

[mindlight]

Given the actual threat of a socialist government in the UK that is truly Marxist in its instincts and a growing resentment across Western society to rich people I thought I should ask the question.

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

The point about Capitalism was that the concentration of wealth in the hands of various rich people is meant to encourage risks to be made for innovation. So Elon Musk is the only one really pushing for a Mars trip right now and the technological development required for that. Gates and Buffet are busy sorting out global tropical diseases. But there are increasing signs that Musk can be really idiotic and may yet throw away his freedom and ability to push the Mars vision cause of some silly court case. Also increasingly in big companies we see a stifling political correctness that seeks to eliminate extreme risks to a companies reputation in the market place, an unwillingness to invest in risky schemes and a massive and unearned inequality of pay.

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries

Rev 6:6
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The book of Amos seems to cite the social injustice that characterised latter day Israel (the Northern Kingdom) as a reason for her fall.

Reasons cited for the failure of capitalism as a system:

1) Failure to fund public services without a massive proliferation of costs e.g. the American health service.
2) Massive entrenched inequality accompanied by growing social immobility. Such that if you are born poor you die poor and if you are born rich your children will also most likely be rich.
3) A focus on luxuries at the expense of basics in many case leading to a growth of absolute poverty in poorer nations and shortages of basic necessities.
4) Failure to back meaningful risks associated with human expansion e.g. solar system wide space flight , research for the common good rather than profit e.g. expensive drugs for the rich but not cheap cures that work for all.
5) Social instability and disintegration caused by rising inequality. Leftist violence across Europe e.g. the recent G20 catastrophe in Hamburg is indicative of the rising sense of resentment against the entitled few.

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?

 

[FireDragon76]

Capitalism in a post-Christian society has become a toxic kind of multinational corporatism because there's no ethical or humanitarian check left on it. That's what Trump and others are feeding off of, even if it's in many ways the wrong sort of response.

 

[mindlight]

Capitalism in a post-Christian society has become a toxic kind of multinational corporatism because there's no ethical or humanitarian check left on it. That's what Trump and others are feeding off of, even if it's in many ways the wrong sort of response.

Then you answer would be on the lines of this is not true capitalism? How can this toxic version of multinational corporatism be challenged effectively. Is this a matter of tax or legislation or does it require a full blown Christian revival?

My understanding was that there were checks on capitalism in the US system. Obama was for instance happy to shred BP for the oil spill in the American gulf but less inclined to attack American oil companies with bad records. I have yet to see an example of this by Trump except in line with his America First strategy of repatriating jobs and personal attacks on billionaires that offended him in some way e.g. Jeff Bezos and Amazon. He does seem more narcissistic than morally guided when it comes to holding corporations to account. The Supreme Court is still in place, not all members of congress have been bought and paid for by lobby groups working for big corporations. What can be done to fix the system and begin to address health care costs, the massive pay gap in your corporations, the lack of social mobility etc??

 

[timewerx]

Nothing will work if corrupt men are running the country.

Both Capitalist and Socialist systems have positive aspects. But if corrupt men are running everything, neither will work. Neither a new system will work.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Margaret Thatcher said: 'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'?

Capitalism encourages people to get out and be productive and produce wealth. Socialism encourages people to sit down and do nothing.

"To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind." Ecc 2:24

God does redistribute the wealth. To those who please him. Socialism is the devils counterfeit forgery. You are asking the righteous to produce wealth then you give the wealth to the people that do not please God. As Paul says: "if a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2Thess3:10 This is why Paul says: "working quietly to earn their own living".

I do not know right off what passage in the OT he is referring to. But his teaching is plain enough to understand.

People have told me that Marxism looks like the real thing when you read it. But it is a counterfeit and it is not the real word of God. In the Bible we are told: "Good people leave an inheritance to their grandchildren, but the sinner's wealth passes to the godly." The devil turns this around and he takes the children's bread and gives it to the sinner. He preserves the seed of the sinner and not the righteous.

Here in America this is where all the crime is. You have 1% of the people doing 50% of the shooting. You have small areas of two or three city blocks costing millions of dollars of tax dollars to deal with the crime. It would be better to go in and tear it all down. But no one wants those people. They would end up homeless with no place to go. So the churches go in with their soup kitchens and inner city missions to do what we can to try to help them. We try to get the living word of God into people so the Word can do what God sends His Word to accomplish.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

It's Globalism that is undoing decades of progress in terms of better employment terms and conditions for workers.

Just my two pennorth!

 

[FireDragon76]

Margaret Thatcher said: 'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'?

Capitalism encourages people to get out and be productive and produce wealth. Socialism encourages people to sit down and do nothing.

"To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind." Ecc 2:24

God does redistribute the wealth. To those who please him. Socialism is the devils counterfeit forgery. You are asking the righteous to produce wealth then you give the wealth to the people that do not please God. As Paul says: "if a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2Thess3:10 This is why Paul says: "working quietly to earn their own living".

I do not know right off what passage in the OT he is referring to. But his teaching is plain enough to understand.

Anglophone countries, influenced by a rigid and narrow Calvinism, have a long history of religious demonization of the poor in the name of their Theology of Glory. Thatcher was speaking from that sort of perspective, of the need to discipline the poor to save their soul. It's monstrous in its implications, the stuff of Dickensian workhouses that fails to account for human dignity.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?

It's usury which is enslaving the poor, not Capitalism, and governments entering into debt they are not authorised to enter into. Prevent usury, and you will improve the system 50%. Prevent limitless taxation (10% was the biblical standard), and you will likely improve the rest. There's also the issue of governments not doing their duty (i.e. the exercise of justice, not economy meddling), but many of these things won't be solved until Jesus returns.

In this world, we will always have the poor, but Communism, like usury, makes slaves and paupers out of everyone, and via theft.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Obama was for instance happy to shred BP for the oil spill in the American gulf

BP was a front for The National Iranian Oil Company a government-owned corporation under the direction of the Ministry of Petroleum of Iran. I consider that oil spill to be an act of war. We got it straightened out. I do not know what Obama was doing giving money to Iran. A lot of what he did does not make any sense.

 

[mindlight]

Nothing will work if corrupt men are running the country.

Both Capitalist and Socialist systems have positive aspects. But if corrupt men are running everything, neither will work. Neither a new system will work.

Well you may have a point there. Russian oligarchy both before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union is also a case in point. Saudi riches are concentrated in the hands of those connected to the Royal family and serve to preserve that pre-eminence. I have to wonder how many Chinese Communists got to be so rich.

 

[joshua 1 9]

many of these things won't be solved until Jesus returns.

When is Jesus going to come? The reformed "Jews" said they would not return to Jerusalem until the Messiah comes. Yet today 70 years after the rebirth of Israel as a nation – tens of thousands of Jews are returning to their homeland.

I have heard people say we have already entered into the Kingdom age.

 

[mindlight]

Margaret Thatcher said: 'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'?

Capitalism encourages people to get out and be productive and produce wealth. Socialism encourages people to sit down and do nothing.

Being a big fan of Thatcher and what she did for Britain I can agree with this statement and still worry at the Capitalism she unleashed. In the dark days of the 70s the UK was the sick man of Europe and socialism was a big part of the reason. Communist miners and trade unions brought the country to its knees. Thatcher destroyed much of the basis of that old Victorian envy based socialism and in the process left deep wounds that linger till today. But the country as a whole prospered as a result.

"To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind." Ecc 2:24

God does redistribute the wealth. To those who please him. Socialism is the devils counterfeit forgery. You are asking the righteous to produce wealth then you give the wealth to the people that do not please God. As Paul says: "if a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2Thess3:10 This is why Paul says: "working quietly to earn their own living".

Equality of outcome is clearly not the Christian goal, but surely equality of Opportunity is more in line with Christian teaching. There is a massive inequality of social mobility and a lot of people never get the chance to prosper in the current system due to inequalities of education etc. The American system especially now favours the very rich who are the only ones who can afford university.

I do not know right off what passage in the OT he is referring to. But his teaching is plain enough to understand.

People have told me that Marxism looks like the real thing when you read it. But it is a counterfeit and it is not the real word of God. In the Bible we are told: "Good people leave an inheritance to their grandchildren, but the sinner's wealth passes to the godly." The devil turns this around and he takes the children's bread and gives it to the sinner. He preserves the seed of the sinner and not the righteous.

Here in America this is where all the crime is. You have 1% of the people doing 50% of the shooting. You have small areas of two or three city blocks costing millions of dollars of tax dollars to deal with the crime. It would be better to go in and tear it all down. But no one wants those people. They would end up homeless with no place to go. So the churches go in with their soup kitchens and inner city missions to do what we can to try to help them. We try to get the living word of God into people so the Word can do what God sends His Word to accomplish.

Those city blocks where your countries poverty and crime are concentrated are at the heart of the issue and the accusation against the current system. Basically how many people make it out of there?

You are right Marxism sounds right but fails to deliver. I saw the Eastern block countries before the wall came down. There were sad and impoverished by comparison with the West.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Anglophone countries, influenced by a rigid and narrow Calvinism, have a long history of religious demonization of the poor in the name of their Theology of Glory. Thatcher was speaking from that sort of perspective, of the need to discipline the poor to save their soul. It's monstrous in its implications, the stuff of Dickensian workhouses that fails to account for human dignity.

We do not need workhouses anymore, they can build robots to do the work. Atheists even think we can build an artificial intelligence to do our thinking for us. Of course they know nothing about what it means to have the Mind of Christ.

 

[mindlight]

It's Globalism that is undoing decades of progress in terms of better employment terms and conditions for workers.

Just my two pennorth!

Big multinational corporations with risk averse policies, massive inequality of pay and ability to play governments are a problem in modern capitalism. Given that it is small start ups and medium sized companies that generate much of the wealth and jobs in an economy the temptation to pander to these corporations by governments may be self defeating in the long run. Politicians are scared of big headline closures with massive job losses in marginal constituencies. But sometimes they prop up losers or fail to hold the right people to account as a result. The 2008 financial crisis is a case in point. Many of those bankers who caused the initial overexposure and bad capital ratios of their banks and who profited from that were never held to account. While millions of others have suffered a decade of austerity as countries tried to fix the damage they caused.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

When is Jesus going to come? The reformed "Jews" said they would not return to Jerusalem until the Messiah comes. Yet today 70 years after the rebirth of Israel as a nation – tens of thousands of Jews are returning to their homeland.

I have heard people say we have already entered into the Kingdom age.

Matthew 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[mindlight]

Anglophone countries, influenced by a rigid and narrow Calvinism, have a long history of religious demonization of the poor in the name of their Theology of Glory. Thatcher was speaking from that sort of perspective, of the need to discipline the poor to save their soul. It's monstrous in its implications, the stuff of Dickensian workhouses that fails to account for human dignity.

Thatchers work ethic was something that entitled socialists of the 70s and 80s really needed to learn from. There was no reason they should continue to receive handouts at everyone elses expense when their productivity lagged so badly and they resisted every attempt at reform. Thatcher was brutal but necessary. But she went too far with the poll tax for instance which was an extreme expression of this commitment to individual responsibility.

 

[FireDragon76]

We do not need workhouses anymore, they can build robots to do the work. Atheists even think we can build an artificial intelligence to do our thinking for us. Of course they know nothing about what it means to have the Mind of Christ.

The point of workhouses was not to produce useful goods and services so much as to stigmatize the poor and to discipline them, in the hopes that they would "repent" and become "honest".

 

[FireDragon76]

Then you answer would be on the lines of this is not true capitalism? How can this toxic version of multinational corporatism be challenged effectively. Is this a matter of tax or legislation or does it require a full blown Christian revival?

My understanding was that there were checks on capitalism in the US system. Obama was for instance happy to shred BP for the oil spill in the American gulf but less inclined to attack American oil companies with bad records. I have yet to see an example of this by Trump except in line with his America First strategy of repatriating jobs and personal attacks on billionaires that offended him in some way e.g. Jeff Bezos and Amazon. He does seem more narcissistic than morally guided when it comes to holding corporations to account. The Supreme Court is still in place, not all members of congress have been bought and paid for by lobby groups working for big corporations. What can be done to fix the system and begin to address health care costs, the massive pay gap in your corporations, the lack of social mobility etc??

It's ironic you are in Germany because I think modern Germany has the right approach generally, a mix of public and private investment and regulation of the economy for the common good.

I really do think in many ways Angela Merkel's Germany is more of a "leader of the free world" than the US right now. They are economically powerful, relatively egalitarian, and they have generally upheld the standard of western democracies in terms of political and social liberalism and human rights, which is more than what can be said for the current US regime.

 

[mukk_in]

I guess it depends on who we ask. As an investor, I'd say yes. Many who are left out (gender and income disparity) may feel otherwise. Peace in Christ .

 

[joshua 1 9]

Equality of outcome is clearly not the Christian goal, but surely equality of Opportunity is more in line with Christian teaching. There is a massive inequality of social mobility and a lot of people never get the chance to prosper in the current system due to inequalities of education etc. The American system especially now favours the very rich who are the only ones who can afford university.

They favor the people willing to work hard to get a good education. My son was taking classes from three different colleges in High School. They were paying something like $30,000 a year for him. He got off to a late start so he only got $20,000 in scholarships. But some of his friends got a full ride and $90,000 in scholarships. It use to be you could graduate from High School with two years of college credits, now they are going to let people start early and give them three years worth of college credits. Not the difficult classes. They are only allowed to sign up for the easy classes. So they can not take calculus in High School. Only pre calculus classes to prepare them.

My wife was raised in poverty in a third world nation. So for her all she talks about is how their only opportunity is to get an education. So she pretty much devotes her life to helping her family pay for their education. Right now she is working over time to help her son make ends meet so he does not have to borrow any money.

The reason Harvard has so many applications is if a person is accepted and their parents do not make $90,000 a years you get a free ride. So they can only take one out of every 500 applications. That means very hard work in High School to qualify. One girl claims she got into Harvard because she always does all of the extra assignments. That is for the people that want to get ahead. If you do not do the extra work, then you end up like my son with a partial scholarship but not a full free ride. No one tells you any of this stuff though.

Even in China there is a lot of competition. WE get a lot of the China students here at the University. My mom use to do a lot of work with the foreign students. She had an organization called Hosting International Travelers. Other people have taken that over now, but I use to be active in helping the Students from China. Mostly they were here for the masters degree program.