Is Calvinism Just?

[Dave L]

How often to you talk to atheists? I don't any of them who were never believers who hate God. The ones I know who hate GOd are fallen away believers. Those guys hate God more so than atheists who never were believers. Believers who have fallen away do tend to hate the god they rejected. That is true.

It would be interesting to know of their church affiliation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How can you reject a God you love? You certainly reject Calvin's God.

Huh? The theology of Calvinism describes deeds that are terribly evil and attribute them to god. Therefore the theology is wrong as he is not like that.

 

[Dave L]

Huh? The theology of Calvinism describes deeds that are terribly evil and attribute them to god. Therefore the theology is wrong as he is not like that.

So you hate God if Calvin was right?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It would be interesting to know of their church affiliation.

Different ones.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you hate God if Calvin was right?

That is like asking if I would hate Jesus if there never was a son of Adam, Abel, and none of his teachings were correct but he lied. This will never happen. I know that I know this.

 

[Dave L]

That is like asking if I would hate Jesus if there never was a son of Adam, Abel, and none of his teachings were correct but he lied. This will never happen. I know that I know this.

It's not the same. It is how you define God and if you love him defined as such.

 

[royal priest]

No, God called Abraham and he obeyed. If he hadn't obeyed he still would have been called to be chosen. Many are called and some refuse. To receive the promise he had to obey. Being called is not the end of the story.

Putting the cart before the horse is one thing, but please don't remove the horse altogether.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's not the same. It is how you define God and if you love him defined as such.

We think really differently. I do not define God and never have or at least not in many years. I seek to understand God and have been given more than I thought possible in this life along that line. But I was willing to pay the price for that knowledge. I love Him because I have come to know what he is like as does anyone who knows Him. I do not love Him for what he gives me including salvation. If God were to tell me that there is no afterlife and this is it, I would love Him just the same and serve Him just the same and nothing would change for me. That is the depth of the love I have for Him.

I do hate the theology of Calvinism because it dishonors Him, it steals from my dear brethren the chance to know God. No calvinist that I have met understands God in the least. The theology steals that possiblity from them. And I am deeply sorry. My passion is to pass on the love to know and understand God. It is worthy of a passion of a lifetime.

 

[straykat]

Well, when you write XYZ is just, you are very much declaring it just same as a judge. If it were above your pay grade, as you say, you would not make a declaration. You would say you do not know as it is above your ability/position to make a judgement. Instead you made a judgement, end of discussion.

This is another example of what I wrote today, that few if any seek to understand God. Very few. You do not want to understand him but are content not to do so. There are those who want to understand him. It is possible but it is expensive. Not pursuing knowing GOd is much cheaper.

You barely even seek to understand me, a measely human, and yet you think you understand these higher depths of God. We've haven't even exchanged many words, and yet your trying to ascertain the deepest things about me - questioning my standing with God. But if you want more words, I'll oblige, I suppose.

I understand that God is above me, and to fear him, and to be in awe.

That is the beginning of wisdom, after all. The beginning of wisdom is not to pompously pretend I can reach the heights of God myself and ascertain things beyond mortals. This is the sin of the Babels and Nimrods of the world. And it is the original sin of Eve, enticed to claim gnosis beyond her means, falling prey to Lucifer's trap to be "like God" herself.

I understand that Jesus told me to simply trust and give thanks to the Father, for he is the Source. It is enough to know and rejoice. Countless Psalms teach us the same thing, and yet you excoriate me for it? I'm sorry that humbling oneself and rejoicing in God's greatness offends you so much. But I'm not going to change.

I understand that he told me to not overly concern myself with things out of my control - for example, with the future. To be like the birds of the air or flowers of the field - "Sufficient is the day unto the evil thereof."

Take care

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Putting the cart before the horse is one thing, but please don't remove the horse altogether.

Where did I do that? I know the whole of the story of Abraham. I edit nothing out. Tells one who wants to know a great deal about God Himself

 

[Dave L]

We think really differently. I do not define God and never have or at least not in many years. I seek to understand God and have been given more than I thought possible in this life along that line. But I was willing to pay the price for that knowledge. I love Him because I have come to know what he is like as does anyone who knows Him. I do not love Him for what he gives me including salvation. If God were to tell me that there is no afterlife and this is it, I would love Him just the same and serve Him just the same and nothing would change for me. That is the depth of the love I have for Him.

I do hate the theology of Calvinism because it dishonors Him, it steals from my dear brethren the chance to know God. No calvinist that I have met understands God in the least. The theology steals that possiblity from them. And I am deeply sorry. My passion is to pass on the love to know and understand God. It is worthy of a passion of a lifetime.

You cannot separate the definition from what it defines.

 

[renniks]

It's not the same. It is how you define God and if you love him defined as such.

Could you love a God who was more evil than Satan?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You don't even seek to understand me, a measely human, and yet you think you understand these higher depths of God. We've barely even exchanged a word, and you're already judging my soul. What did I even do to you to get such treatment?
understand that God is above me, and to fear him, and to be in awe.

Wow, I just said your words are in judgement and you get all bent out of shape here. I am not judging your soul but your words. Take care in what you write because those who read it know what you think.

That is the beginning of wisdom, after all. The beginning of wisdom is not to pompously pretend I can reach the heights of God myself and ascertain things beyond mortals. This is the sin of the Babels and Nimrods of the world. And it is the original sin of Eve, enticed to claim gnosis beyond her means, falling prey to Lucifer's trap to be "like God" herself.

No one in the BIble is in fear of God. They do walk in the fear of the Lord which is not the same thing.

I understand that Jesus told me to simply trust and give thanks to the Father, for he is the Source. It is enough to know and rejoice. Countless Psalms teach us the same thing, and yet you excoriate me for it? I'm sorry that humbling oneself and rejoicing in God's greatness offends you so much. But I'm not going to change.

If that is all you want out of GOd, that I guess that is where you will stay.

I understand that he told me to not overly concern myself with things out of my control - for example, with the future. To be like the birds of the air or flowers of the field - "Sufficient is the day unto the evil thereof."

Not to be concerned with the future is correct. Not to be concerned with understanding Him is not correct. Jesus said eternal life is to know God, not to be saved.

 

[Dave L]

Could you love a God who was more evil than Satan?

If the evil was a result of his righteous judgement.

 

[-57]

And he tells us who he will have mercy on, anyone in the world who believes on his son, and the scripture leaves no one out..

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, tell me, who in the world was created to be left out, when "whosoever believeth" can be saved?

Why would someone not avvept Christ?

 

[renniks]

How does God alone being savior not amount to salvation by grace? How does people saving themselves with God's help not wind up being salvation by works?

Arminians don't believe that they save themselves in any way shape or form.

 

[Concord1968]

As usual, these threads always turn into gang-ups as the wolf pack jumps in the thread

 

[renniks]

If the evil was a result of his righteous judgement.

If God is evil he's not the God of the Bible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Like him or not, disagree with him or not, but that is NOT what he was saying. It is what people with a superficial knowledge of Calvin think his theology is suggesting.

No your just ignoring the implications of his theology. According to Calvin’s theology can the unelected influence God’s decision in any way to persuade Him elect them? No they cannot. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is INCAPABLE of repentance or believing unless God elects them. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for the unelected to please God in any way shape or form as a result of a condition that is completely beyond their control. By all means please feel free to correct me if I have errored in any way in this assessment of Calvin’s doctrine. So far no one has disagreed with any of these implications of his theology.

 

[straykat]

Not to be concerned with understanding Him is not correct. Jesus said eternal life is to know God, not to be saved.

I never said I wasn't concerned. I said that I'll forever be learning and take joy in that. And I said we have our limits. We only have been told in scripture on the existence of Predestination. We can imply in less explicit ways as well. But that's a far cry from thinking I know the "mechanics" enough to write a "systematic" view on the nature of free will and God's omniscience. This is vanity. It has nothing to do with disrespecting God. But simply knowing my place and that he hasn't revealed everything about this for now. There's a difference between acknowledging something, and saying you know the details of something.