Is Calvinism Just?

[BNR32FAN]

Your question insinuates salvation through meritorious works. What sinner is perfectly righteous or can become perfectly righteous? Apart from Gods merciful grace in Christ even the elect of God are without hope and will die in their sin.

Not at all. Is believing a work? What sinner has any choice whether or not they sin? Only the elect right? So is it the unelected’s fault that they cannot repent or is it God’s fault according to Calvin’s theology?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think it’s both great and sad at the same time how many Calvinists refuse to answer my questions. Great that they realize they can’t but sad that they won’t admit what is so crystal clear. At this point it’s just an unwillingness to accept the truth. But the seed is planted nonetheless.

 

[Kate30]

Huh? The theology of Calvinism describes deeds that are terribly evil and attribute them to god. Therefore the theology is wrong as he is not like that.

Dorothy just what is it that you find so unappealing and evil that makes Calvinism so unjust. Is it merely the right of man not being able reach out for salvation without God first attracting that person to him? As to your last message it was taken down along with mine. So I never had the time to reply And no I wouldn’t burn you why would I do? Besides we have too many bush fires here in Australia at the moment : ) .

 

[MDC]

Not at all. Is believing a work? What sinner has any choice whether or not they sin? Only the elect right? So is it the unelected’s fault that they cannot repent or is it God’s fault according to Calvin’s theology?

Paul answers your question in Romans 9 starting with vs 14.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy just what is it that you find so unappealing and evil that makes Calvinism so unjust.

Fair question. It is that it attributes to God the unjust predestining of millions for Heaven or Hell for no reason. Totally arbitrary. Some he hates for no reason and some he loves for no reason. Does this appeal to you, if I may ask?

Is it merely the right of man not being able reach out for salvation without God first attracting that person to him?

I actually do not pretend to know the details of that although I have a good idea and it is a lot more complex that the theories purposed here.

As to your last message it was taken down along with mine. So I never had the time to reply And no I wouldn’t burn you why would I do? Besides we have too many bush fires here in Australia at the moment : ) .

I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think it’s both great and sad at the same time how many Calvinists refuse to answer my questions. Great that they realize they can’t but sad that they won’t admit what is so crystal clear. At this point it’s just an unwillingness to accept the truth. But the seed is planted nonetheless.

I have been in many a discussion with Calvinists and have never experienced anything different than as you describe. But at least these guys are not too much into cut and pasting in other people's explanation of what they think.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What a strange thing for a Christian to say, that God is unjust.
Part of the character of God is that he is Just.
We may be screaming at him, "What are you doing!" but because we do not understand does not make Gods actions unjust.

I question the understanding of anyone who starts with the idea that God is unjust.


All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?" (Daniel 4:35).

This man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law (Acts 2:23).
In him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11).

Just three quotes that show God is incontroll.

If you believe God is not in control then can you say what God is in controll?

What she means is that according to Calvin’s theology God’s judgment on the unelected is unjust. Of course we know that God is just brother. That’s why we are saying that Calvin’s interpretations cannot be true because his theology makes God out to be unjust in His judgement of the unelected who were never made to be capable of meeting God’s expectations.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

"Evil" is in the sense calamity same as peace is the absence of calamity. Peace and evil are not opposites as light and darkness are. Peace and calamity are opposites. Darkness, by the way, was also called good by God, not evil.

 

[Dave L]

"Evil" is in the sense calamity same as peace is the absence of calamity. Peace and evil are not opposites as light and darkness are. Peace and calamity are opposites. Darkness, by the way, was also called good by God, not evil.

Hell isn't calamity?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hell isn't calamity?

Not for some residents. Becoming a Christian is calamity for some. Does not make it evil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul answers your question in Romans 9 starting with vs 14.

I prefer your answer because we have different interpretations of the scriptures. The unelected were NEVER CAPABLE of meeting God’s expectations, correct?

 

[Dave L]

Not for some residents. Becoming a Christian is calamity for some. Does not make it evil.

Are they sinning as in evil?

 

[straykat]

Scripture does not teach predestination as calvin taught it and you believe it. YOu will not find a verse that says you are predestined for heaven no matter what you do. So you are wrong on that point.

When did I even say I believed in Calvin? My whole point was that people like him overstep their bounds. All I said is that I believe in God's providence and that predestination exists. How that plays out with our freewill is beyond my understanding and not detailed enough in the scriptures. I've come to the conclusion that it's not for this life to know. It's simply enough to acknowledge God's greatness, trust him, and try to focus on what he is more clear about. And again I say, "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". Priorities, priorities, priorities. That's my essential message here, if anything. Prioritize. It doesn't mean that I'm careless, like you think. And I'd appreciate if you stopped being so confrontational about it. I barely entered this thread and you've been instantly aggressive on few words, assuming things I never say, and seemingly calling my relationship with God in question. I dislike it. Don't be surprised if people get "bent out of shape" if you act like this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The unelected were NEVER CAPABLE of meeting God’s expectations, correct?

? not sure so to speak .....

Just what did God TELL Cain about sin crouching at the door ? What did God TELL Cain about that ?

 

[Dave L]

When did I even say I believed in Calvin? My whole point was that people like him overstep their bounds. All I said is that I believe in God's providence and that predestination exists. How that plays out with our freewill is beyond my understanding and not detailed enough in the scriptures. I've come to the conclusion that it's not for this life to know. It's simply enough to acknowledge God's greatness, trust him, and try to focus on what he is more clear about. And again I say, "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". Priorities, priorities, priorities. That's my essential message here, if anything. Prioritize. It doesn't mean that I'm careless, like you think. And I'd appreciate if you stopped being so confrontational about it.

Once you realise there is no free will, Calvin makes more sense.

 

[Albion]

Then there are some walk with God churches that require faith and obedience.

Something "required" is not the same as "What is it that saves a person?" It is the latter question that we were discussing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When did I even say I believed in Calvin? My whole point was that people like him overstep their bounds. All I said is that I believe in God's providence and that predestination exists. How that plays out with our freewill is beyond my understanding and not detailed enough in the scriptures. I've come to the conclusion that it's not for this life to know. It's simply enough to acknowledge God's greatness, trust him, and try to focus on what he is more clear about. And again I say, "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". Priorities, priorities, priorities. That's my essential message here, if anything. Prioritize. It doesn't mean that I'm careless, like you think. And I'd appreciate if you stopped being so confrontational about it. I barely entered this thread and you've been instantly aggressive on few words, assuming things I never say, and seemingly calling my relationship with God in question. I dislike it. Don't be surprised if people get "bent out of shape" if you act like this.

Your posts sound like a Calvinist and the above is no exception. That you do not understand free will is like a Calvinist. That you think it is not for this life to know is a Calvinist position. (I know by the way and it is not that difficult but one has to jettison Calvinism)

I did not say you were careless. Please do not say I did. You just want to believe the simple and not understand much. That is fine. I want to understand the complex including God. And he have granted that pursuit but I have been at it for decades with lots of obedience under the belt. The bible actually says, "with all that you get, get understanding."

I do not call your relationship with God into question. I wish you would stop accusing me of saying things I did not say. That is, frankly speaking, pretty aggressive.

So in summary, please stop accusing me of saying things against you I did not say. If you do not want to understand God that is your choice. Please respect my choice to want to understand God.

 

[Albion]

You know, you might not like there verse in Romans but Paul wrote it.

I like it just fine.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Something "required" is not the same as "What is it that saves a person?" It is the latter question that we were discussing.

Frankly speaking, I doubt anyone here is qualified to answer that question although I know it won't stop many from making up answers. The real answers are complex as people are complex and God is even more complex. It won't fit into two sentences.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I like it just fine.

That you will face judgement for the deeds done in the body?