Is Calvinism Just?

Albion · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Is it just to punish a person in eternal hell fire for failing to accomplish an impossible task?

No.

Do you disagree with the definition of the doctrines I provided?

I agree with what I wrote in post #276 and am of the opinion that unless those points are understood, the rest is not going anywhere.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2019

royal priest said:
God does not show partiality in terms of merit. His choice is based solely upon His prerogative of grace, and is in no way affected by any act of the recipient of that grace. If anything, the opposite is true. God said He chose Israel because they were the least of all the nation's. Paul tells us that God has chosen the worthless things of this world in order to shame the "high and mighty".

Bless you friend but we are trying to keep to the topic of the thread and determine if Calvin’s doctrines makes God’s judgement unjust.

royal priest · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Bless you friend but we are trying to keep to the topic of the thread and determine if Calvin’s doctrines makes God’s judgement unjust.

God impartiality toward sinners is not just. It is gracious.

The Liturgist · Dec 5, 2019

Albion said:
Let's slow down for a moment. Calvinism does not teach that God acts unjustly. And it does not teach that he makes his choices arbitrarily. What remains is about what WE may think to be unjust.

In any case, there is no chance of making any progress on this subject if we don't know what Calvinism actually does teach.

Some aspects of Calvinism, such as its interpretation of sacramental grace, I think are very insightful, but most people alas aren’t even thinking of that when talking about Calvinism.

Gup20 · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t understand what this last part means friend.

[Gen 3:14-19 NASB] 14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." 16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

We see here a description of a universal judgment. All humans, plants, animals, and even the very ground itself is cursed as a result of sin. Paul puts it this way:

[Rom 8:19-23 NASB] 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Paul also says:

[Rom 5:12-14 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So what did the animals do to deserve death? What did the plants do? What did the ground do? What did the rest of the universe do to sin against God? Between Adam and Moses (when The Law was given) no one else broke the only law in existence - not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet they all died. Yet, God's judgment of Adam was universal.

Enter Jesus. The one man who was sinless and without blame. How can a universal judgment like Adam's judgment be just when there is a single righteous person. The purpose of the law was to demonstrate one, single man righteous so a new system could take effect. John says it this way:

[Rev 5:1-9 NASB] 1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Because of Jesus, Adam's universal judgment must be rescinded in lieu of individual judgments. That what the great, white throne judgments are -- individual judgments. Because of Christ, there is a universal resurrection. But not all will have life in the resurrection. Some will be resurrected to eternal torment and a second death.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

[Rom 5:18 NASB] 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Gup20 · Dec 5, 2019

Unconditional Election
Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Gup20 · Dec 5, 2019

So the way in which God "chose" His people was by making an oath, promise, or covenant with a specific people, and promising all the descendants of those people would inherit that promise. No person (Calvinist or Armenian) disagree that the Jews were God's chosen people. They didn't earn it... they inherited it by being a descendant of Abraham.

He then made a way whereby anyone could join that group by choice.... if you choose to have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had (Gal 3:8, 16), you are counted as a descendant of Abraham, and part of the elect group. God's motivation for saving people is not their faith (as Calvinism presupposes), but rather Gods motivation is His promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the promise. Faith is simply how people qualify or disqualify themselves to inherit God's promise and become a descendant of Abraham.

So it would be unjust of God, and it would make God a liar if He did not honor His promise to give the righteousness that was given to Abraham to all of Abraham's descendants. Therefore, it is God's own Word which motivates Him to save those with faith, not the faith itself.

Dorothy Mae · Dec 5, 2019

Albion said:
Let's slow down for a moment.

Not moving fast.

Calvinism does not teach that God acts unjustly.

Of course they don’t say “God is unjust.” The cat would be out of the bag. What they teach their god does IS unjust. I you’re one, you need to show us HOW God is not just but acts as calvinists teach.

And it does not teach that he makes his choices arbitrarily.

On what basis does He does who goes to heaven or hell then? Lay out the reasons so we can see if they’re just.

What remains is about what WE may think to be unjust.

God commands us to do justly. He assumes we KNOW what justly doing is. So that rabbit hole is closed.

In any case, there is no chance of making any progress on this subject if we don't know what Calvinism actually does teach.

Weve had direct quotes from Calvin himself.

But let’s ask you, how is God deciding eternal fate before birth just?

Dorothy Mae · Dec 5, 2019

Gup20 said:
Unconditional Election
Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

How is the above just? We’ve been requested by a mod not to lay out scripture. We know why calvinists believe this. Some of us understand it perfectly and believe none of it. Please discuss how it is just cause it is pretty seriously unjust.

Dorothy Mae · Dec 5, 2019

Gup20 said:
So the way in which God "chose" His people was by making an oath, promise, or covenant with a specific people, and promising all the descendants of those people would inherit that promise. No person (Calvinist or Armenian) disagree that the Jews were God's chosen people. They didn't earn it... they inherited it by being a descendant of Abraham.

He then made a way whereby anyone could join that group by choice.... if you choose to have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had (Gal 3:8, 16), you are counted as a descendant of Abraham, and part of the elect group. God's motivation for saving people is not their faith (as Calvinism presupposes), but rather Gods motivation is His promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the promise. Faith is simply how people qualify or disqualify themselves to inherit God's promise and become a descendant of Abraham.

So it would be unjust of God, and it would make God a liar if He did not honor His promise to give the righteousness that was given to Abraham to all of Abraham's descendants. Therefore, it is God's own Word which motivates Him to save those with faith, not the faith itself.

None of this addresses the problem of God in Calvinism choosing some for heaven before they were born and damning others at the same time.

Talking about other things God needs to do or he’d be unjust is just a smoke screen.

claninja · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election.

From my understanding of Calvinism, man can believe in God, just as demons believe in God.

But man cannot be saved on his own. Thus, man on his own cannot initiate fully believing the promises of God to be true nor bring himself to fully repent without God's intervention.

BNR32FAN said:
This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining.

Right, man by himself, cannot obtain God's election. If man, on his own, without God's intervention, can obtain election, that becomes work based salvation.

BNR32FAN said:
According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe.

Correct, a man is judged on whether he believes in Christ or not. But we also know that God hardens men's hearts for his own Glory.

Part of the nation of Israel was hardened by God Himself, so that Jesus would be crucified, resulting in salvation to those who believed, who were prepared beforehand: elect Jews and gentiles.

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

BNR32FAN said:
So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter?

And this is exactly where I struggled with the theology of Calvinism when I was younger. I would also agree that predestined eternal conscious torment is not just.

But as someone who now holds to the lake of fire not being literal but symbolic for the 2nd death, which equals the eternal punishment of annhilationism, God's justice, mercy, and predestination are reconciled IMO.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2019

Albion said:
No.

That’s what Calvin’s theology is suggesting.

Dorothy Mae · Dec 5, 2019

royal priest said:
God does not show partiality in terms of merit. His choice is based solely upon His prerogative of grace, and is in no way affected by any act of the recipient of that grace. If anything, the opposite is true.

In other words, totally arbitrary which makes that unjust.

God said He chose Israel because they were the least of all the nation's. Paul tells us that God has chosen the worthless things of this world in order to shame the "high and mighty".

Well God chose Abraham because Abraham obeyed him. The promise was dependent upon the man obeying God which he did. That was not arbitrary at all.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2019

claninja said:
From my understanding of Calvinism, man can believe in God, just as demons believe in God.

But man cannot be saved on his own. Thus, man on his own cannot initiate fully believing the promises of God to be true nor bring himself to fully repent without God's intervention.

Right, man by himself, cannot obtain God's election. If man, on his own, without God's intervention, can obtain election, that becomes work based salvation.

Correct, a man is judged on whether he believes in Christ or not. But we also know that God hardens men's hearts for his own Glory.

Part of the nation of Israel was hardened by God Himself, so that Jesus would be crucified, resulting in salvation to those who believed, who were prepared beforehand: elect Jews and gentiles.

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

And this is exactly where I struggled with the theology of Calvinism when I was younger. I would also agree that predestined eternal conscious torment is not just.

But as someone who now holds to the lake of fire not being literal but symbolic for the 2nd death, which equals the eternal punishment of annhilationism, God's justice, mercy, and predestination are reconciled IMO.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It’s still an unjust severe punishment tho. It’s unwarranted if the expectation is impossible to achieve.

Dave L · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That is not what Jesus said. He said you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

And Jesus died only for the sheep.

Dave L · Dec 5, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Pretty unjust of him, or is it the theology that teaches Jesus is unjust ? I recall “whosoever will...”

Only believers will. Jesus says all who believe have eternal life.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2019

Dave L said:
Only believers will. Jesus says all who believe have eternal life.

So even tho Calvin’s doctrines portray God as being unjust in His judgement you will still hold to them?

JerseyChristianSuperstar · Dec 5, 2019

Calvinism not only is just, it makes so much more sense than Arminianism.

Let's start with these simple, true propositions.

God is all-wise, He does not make mistakes.
God is all-powerful.
God is all-knowing.
God creates every single human, in His image.
There is a Hell, where unsaved sinners who have rejected Christ will go and suffer for all eternity.
The majority of the world are not saved Christians.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

Why do you believe that an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery lake, Hell?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, is He not sealing their fate by the mere *act* of creating their souls? Yes, He is.

Is God not, in effect, creating these people solely for Hell by making them? Yes.

Ultimately, Arminianism makes God a failure, a God Whose purposes can be thwarted and withheld from Him, contrary to Job 42:2 ("I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You"), since He is essentially "trying" to save everybody, and failing. The only way to for God not to be a failure under Arminianism is if you are a universalist, which is also unscriptural, as there are innumerable passages in the Bible confirming the existence of Hell and that people go there, the unsaved particularly.

Yes, Calvinism is just.

We are all sinners, and none of us are deserving of God's grace. Heck, the entire reason it is called grace is because it is a gift we didn't earn, which the Lord sovereignly distributes to His sheep, according to His good pleasure.

The verses have already been mentioned, but I will add them again, in case they were missed.

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 - And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Romans 9:21-24 - Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Dave L · Dec 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
So even tho Calvin’s doctrines portray God as being unjust in His judgement you will still hold to them?

That's your opinion. I believe he is perfectly Just.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Why do you believe that an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery lake, Hell?

Because He has given every single one of them the free will to choose to love Him or to reject Him and that is exactly why everyone is responsible for their own fate and why God is just in His judgement.

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