Is Calvinism Just?

[Dave L]

All have sinned.

But Jesus paid for the sins of some.

 

[Dave L]

All have sinned.

But not all are forgiven.

 

[rnmomof7]

“A good man will obtain favor from the LORD, But He will condemn a man who devises evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭NASB

It says a good man will find favor not a favored man will be good.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (DBY) Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.

 

[rnmomof7]

God created us in his image. What's wrong with that?

And then man fell ....

Gen5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who said anything about that?

I’m sorry perhaps I mistook your intention. You said there’s no work that can save so I assumed you were implying that I was advocating salvation by works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (DBY) Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.

We’re trying to stick with the topic in the OP. Does Calvin’s theology make God’s judgement unjust?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, they are of the devil and hate God unless he gives them a new heart.

You wrote you’d hate God if He didn’t turn out to be as Calvinism describes. You didn’t mention God being responsible for giving you a heart that loves Him even if He fails to meet your expectations.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We’re trying to stick with the topic in the OP. Does Calvin’s theology make God’s judgement unjust?

Yes it does, very much so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

opps

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I’ve seen this assertion before but it does not follow.

Ephesians chapter 1 is ample evidence that God chooses before the foundations of the earth. Aka eternal. In the same chapter Paul teaches one is saved in space and time by hearing the Gospel.

I think you conflate election and salvation.

nah, Im stating that according to calvin, there are the elect (who were selected according to God's soveireign will before time began) and the damned essentially.

The elect are the elect and the damned are the damned, and there is nothing any of them/us can do about it because it is God's will.

Preaching the gospel means little to nothing because God has already decreed who will have life and who will burn.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

nah, Im stating that according to calvin, there are the elect (who were selected according to God's soveireign will before time began) and the damned essentially.

The elect are the elect and the damned are the damned, and there is nothing any of them/us can do about it because it is God's will.

Preaching the gospel means little to nothing because God has already decreed who will have life and who will burn.

That’s pretty much the injustice of Calvinism in short. Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Some of these posters go on and on.

 

[rnmomof7]

We’re trying to stick with the topic in the OP. Does Calvin’s theology make God’s judgement unjust?

And what do you believe God bases His judgement on ?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and we can expound upon this in the thread. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.


Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.


The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.


n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man


So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter?

Of course, Reformed theology is just. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 several times. We're born dead until God makes us alive by grace through faith in order to honor God with the good works he enables us to do. How can we attain God's election that he made before his creation of anything and anyone (Ephesians 1:1-17)?

 

[rnmomof7]

That’s pretty much the injustice of Calvinism in short. Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Some of these posters go on and on.

Does any man deserve to be saved?

 

[royal priest]

In other words, totally arbitrary which makes that unjust.

Well God chose Abraham because Abraham obeyed him. The promise was dependent upon the man obeying God which he did. That was not arbitrary at all.

God called Abram while he was a moon worshipping pagan

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God called Abram while he was a moon worshipping pagan

Yup and the first he had to do was obey and move. Pretty stiff test.

 

[rnmomof7]

Yes it does, very much so.

So what criteria should God use?

 

[royal priest]

Yup and the first he had to do was obey and move. Pretty stiff test.

Abraham's obedience was inevitable according to God's election of Israel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So what criteria should God use?

What do you mean?

 

[rnmomof7]

nah, Im stating that according to calvin, there are the elect (who were selected according to God's soveireign will before time began) and the damned essentially.

The elect are the elect and the damned are the damned, and there is nothing any of them/us can do about it because it is God's will.

Preaching the gospel means little to nothing because God has already decreed who will have life and who will burn.

God has indeed ordained who will hear the gospel and believe ... the lost have no interest in the gospel when they hear it ...