Is Calvinism Just?

[BNR32FAN]

That's your opinion. I believe he is perfectly Just.

You believe God is just to punish people for all eternity for failing to accomplish an impossible task?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

From my understanding of Calvinism, man can believe in God, just as demons believe in God.

But man cannot be saved on his own. Thus, man on his own cannot initiate fully believing the promises of God to be true nor bring himself to fully repent without God's intervention.

So to be just, God calls everyone at some point in their lives.

Right, man by himself, cannot obtain God's election. If man, on his own, without God's intervention, can obtain election, that becomes work based salvation.

Is loving God and man “work?” How about having hope? Is that work? Man has his part and it’s not work but it’s real and God has his part.

Correct, a man is judged on whether he believes in Christ or not. But we also know that God hardens men's hearts for his own Glory.

God strengthened Pharaoh’s resolve after the man had decided to harden his own heart. Otherwise who do you know whose heart God hardened so he’d go to hell? Btw, this is not to his glory but shame, which is why we don’t believe it.

Part of the nation of Israel was hardened by God Himself, so that Jesus would be crucified, resulting in salvation to those who believed, who were prepared beforehand: elect Jews and gentiles.

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

After they had hardened their own hearts.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

Who made them such vessels? They did.

What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

The eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the earth to find the man whose is (already) completely his.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Chosen for Heaven? No Chosen for hell? no

Chosen to be holy and blameless...are you?

And this is exactly where I struggled with the theology of Calvinism when I was younger. I would also agree that predestined eternal conscious torment is not just.

Glad you see it.

But as someone who now holds to the lake of fire not being literal but symbolic for the 2nd death, which equals the eternal punishment of annhilationism, God's justice, mercy, and predestination are reconciled IMO.

That’s the “punishment” the wicked and atheists hope for. I’ve talked to them and that’s the reward they anticipate. No judgement and no justice.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

How do you deal with writing “whosoever” but believe it’s not true? You as a Calvinist think “only some.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And Jesus died only for the sheep.

Are the “sheep” preselected before birth with no possibility of anyone who desires it becoming a sheep?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So to be just, God calls everyone at some point in their lives.
Is loving God and man “work?” How about having hope? Is that work? Man has his part and it’s not work but it’s real and God has his part.

God strengthened Pharaoh’s resolve after the man had decided to harden his own heart. Otherwise who do you know whose heart God hardened so he’d go to hell? Btw, this is not to his glory but shame, which is why we don’t believe it.
After they had hardened their own hearts.
Who made them such vessels? They did.
The eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the earth to find the man whose is (already) completely his.
Chosen for Heaven? No Chosen for hell? no

Chosen to be holy and blameless...are you?
Glad you see it.
That’s the “punishment” the wicked and atheists hope for. I’ve talked to them and that’s the reward they anticipate. No judgement and no justice.
How do you deal with writing “whosoever” but believe it’s not true? You as a Calvinist think “only some.”

I’m not so sure that God calls everyone according to Acts 10:34-35. I think He will enable every person who will accept His offer of salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Are the “sheep” preselected before birth with no possibility of anyone who desires it becoming a sheep?

Nobody wants to be a sheep unless God gives them a new "sheep's" heart.

 

[Dave L]

You believe God is just to punish people for all eternity for failing to accomplish an impossible task?

They don't know there is a task and would reject it if they did.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’m not so sure that God calls everyone according to Acts 10:34-35. I think He will enable every person who will accept His offer of salvation.

I’m pretty sure many are called at least.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nobody wants to be a sheep unless God gives them a new "sheep's" heart.

Why doesn’t He just give everyone a new sheep’s heart?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nobody wants to be a sheep unless God gives them a new "sheep's" heart.

Unjust!!!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why doesn’t He just give everyone a new sheep’s heart?

He offers everyone but many like to be wolves...better eats.

 

[Dave L]

Unjust!!!!

No, they are of the devil and hate God unless he gives them a new heart.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, they are of the devil and hate God unless he gives them a new heart.

Unjust cause it’s not their fault.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They don't know there is a task and would reject it if they did.

I don’t know why we keep going over the same things over and over, yes we’ve established that already. According to Calvin’s theology they reject it because they are incapable of accepting it. Hence the impossible task that makes God’s judgement unjust.

 

[Dave L]

Unjust cause it’s not their fault.

It is their fault since Adam wanted to sin just as they would if in his place. We are a corrupt species. And even now love sin more than anything else.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is their fault since Adam wanted to sin just as they would if in his place. We are a corrupt species. And even now love sin more than anything else.

I’m confident you do understand the meaning of the word incapable so why do you persist in trying to justify Calvin’s theology? How can it be their fault if they are incapable of choosing otherwise? According to Calvin’s theology it’s God’s fault that they cannot choose to repent.

 

[Dave L]

I don’t know why we keep going over the same things over and over, yes we’ve established that already. According to Calvin’s theology they reject it because they are incapable of accepting it. Hence the impossible task that makes God’s judgement unjust.

This is slanted. There is no work that can save. Jesus did all that's necessary and they hate him and love idols that call by his name instead.

Only those whom God regenerates love him and live holy lives.

 

[Dave L]

I’m confident you do understand the meaning of the word incapable so why do you persist in trying to justify Calvin’s theology?

It is punishment for sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is slanted. There is no work that can save. Jesus did all that's necessary and they hate him and love idols that call by his name instead.

Only those whom God regenerates love him and live holy lives.

Now you just deliberately being obtuse. You know full well that I am not selling salvation by works. Let’s try to stay on topic here the impossible task I’m referring to is accepting God’s gift of grace.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is punishment for sin.

All have sinned.

 

[Dave L]

Now you just deliberately being obtuse. You know full well that I am not selling salvation by works. Let’s try to stay on topic here the impossible task I’m referring to is accepting God’s gift of grace.

Who said anything about that?