Is Calvinism Just?

[Dave L]

Do you hate God if Calvin was wrong about him, if let's say Arminius was right?

Yes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

C'mon admit you just don't want to call a fallen, bad choice - a choice.

Your skirting around the issue. Why? Because you don’t want to admit that Calvin’s theology makes God’s judgement unjust. Otherwise you would’ve just given a straight answer.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And he tells us who he will have mercy on, anyone in the world who believes on his son, and the scripture leaves no one out..

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, tell me, who in the world was created to be left out, when "whosoever believeth" can be saved?

The gospel was preached to all creation with no distinction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes.

Why would you hate him if he doesn’t preselect people for eternity?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

and the answer is.....don't be that guy.

romans 9:14-21

 

[BNR32FAN]

"In every nation" is in close proximity to "not one to show partiality." The one refers to the other. He does not show partiality in regard to nations, but if anyone fears Him etc..... The whole passage is about that very matter, as it turns out. Peter only just then realized that the Gospel was not just to the Jews.

As for the matter of anyone "who fears Him and does what is right" being welcome to Him, one might ask just who that would be, that "fears" and "does what is right", and according to whose assessment.

Obviously God would be the one to assess that.

 

[Dave L]

Why would you hate him if he doesn’t preselect people for eternity?

Actually, my flesh would love an Arminian god. But after worshiping and understanding the Calvinist God I abhor all other versions of Christ.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you hate God if Calvin was right about him?

Do you hate God if Calvin was wrong about him, if let's say Arminius was right?

No and no. That would be insane, because in either case, God has revealed himself to be pure love, who became incarnate and lived among us, and died to save us from death resulting from our sins, and who is with us now in the Holy Spirit. To contemplate misotheism if one has made a theological error is a terrible and dangerous mistake. Because we know that God is love, this is the fundamental experience of Christianity, grace, and we also in all humility must admit that the deity of God in His uncreated, unoriginate essence is entirely beyond our comprehension.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It might be worth noting that TULIP is not in itself the whole of Reformed Theology, and that in fact, that it is a response to the 5 points of Arminianism, and not in itself even representative of Reformed Theology. It is rather shocking to most who are not familiar with many of Reformed Theology's tenets but when the points are well explained, it is likely that they mostly fit what a true believer already believes.

Reformed theology basically teaches that there’s a 1500 year gap in the church’s teaching of the true gospel. Early church writings have been refuting reformed theology as far back as 170AD. Perhaps even farther.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

and the answer is.....don't be that guy.
romans 9:14-21

Mans problem -- well, that ain't fair.
Forgetting that if He is our Father
who are we to say what's fair.

Remember Adam and Eve.
Devil works hard with that fairness thing.

M-Bob

 

[-57]

His sheep hear and follow present tense, so what about those who heard and followed but didn’t continue to do so?

Their still saved.

 

[-57]

No context was posted with that scripture, so before I jump the gun with comment, I was hoping you could explain the scriptures purpose.

The scripture showed the Calvinist view is just.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually, it isn't Calvin's theology that "makes God responsible for those who will burn in the lake of fire" etc, but the person who mistakes the whole concept of Sovereignty and Supremacy. Likewise, such a person is likely to conclude that Reformed Theology teaches that man has no choice --well, that is patently false. Of course we choose. In fact, Reformed Theology will teach that our choice is our condemnation, and that if we choose anything without God, our choice is inevitably corrupt.

Our choice (as concerns the Gospel) is made valid ONLY by God's work of regeneration. NONE of us weak flippant self-important fools has the integrity, intelligence, knowledge or understanding, apart from God doing it in us, to even know what we are deciding about, whom we are "accepting", exactly what he did, nor how to lay hold upon him. Our repentance is temporary, our faith is silly, yet here we talk about sincerity and feelings and choice as though WE are the ones accomplishing this great feat. It is GOD that chooses us, changes us and keeps us.

Then why did Jesus and the apostles tell anyone to repent or believe? According to Calvin’s doctrines no one can choose either way. When the jailer asked Paul & Silas “what must I do to be saved” they should’ve replied “nothing, don’t worry about it”.

 

[The Liturgist]

Reformed theology basically teaches that there’s a 1500 year gap in the church’s teaching of the true gospel. Early church writings have been refuting reformed theology as far back as 170AD. Perhaps even farther.

You are referring to the discredited idea of the Great Apostasy, but this is not an inherently reformed concept; rather, it was the Radical Reformers such as the Mennonites who embraced this idea, and later, the Restorationists, like the Millerites, the Plymouth Brethren, the Stone-Campbell movement, and cults such as the Mormons and J/Ws.

The Magisterial Reformers such as Luther, Cranmer, Calvin and Zwingli generally avoided this error, and indeed the Lutherans were surprised to discover the Eastern Orthodox did not share their theology (although they did agree on some things, and there was an issue of communication and semantics, and also the political nature of the office of the Ecumenical Patriarch, which may well have added confusion). Classical Calvinism has the idea of “Semper Reformanda”, which, like the Roman Catholic idea of the development of doctrine, makes me uneasy. I am not a fan of change in the Church; it should not be static, but it should not change for the sake of change or based on an assumed but unproven corruption; I think instead preserving the Apostolic faith contained in the Creeds is of the greatest importance, as well as preserving prayerful worship which is decent and in order. Nothing distresses me as much as a megachurch whose members think worship is rocking to a praise band; that is not worship but an actual case of the indulgence of fleshy passions which must be tempered through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, as best we can, trusting in God for our salvation.

 

[-57]

It says God determines who goes to hell before birth with no chance otherwise. This is unjust.
The hearts of men cannot be expressed as data.

Arminians say salvation is based upon the happenstance of life....God calls and life's events determine if you will choose.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He has a choice. The reason it doesn't look like he does is because he always chooses against God.

This bears out in other matters besides soteriology. The unredeemed may, for example, choose to live by God's law, but that compliance is not the same thing as obedience. He is complying with the law --not obeying God.

In soteriology, then, faith is a common thing any human can have, but invalid if it is not God doing it in us. Salvific faith is a whole different thing. God (the Holy Spirit, specifically) within us, is the power, integrity, understanding, etc that makes and keeps us. It is HIS job. Our faith is that Gift from him, of himself. Not of us.

Which still makes God’s judgment unjust because the condemned never had any chance for salvation.

 

[com7fy8]

How did God endure with much patience the vessels of wrath as mentioned in Romans 9:22? What does it mean?

The patience is needed because children of wrath are full of >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

At the human level, we see how humans have sewage. But they do not let it just be and go anywhere. They have vessels and systems specialized for holding and controlling sewage. And it takes patience to handle the sewage. It is smelly; it takes patience to put up with the smell while controlling it. But we keep it away from ourselves, as much as we can. If we are impatient to just throw our sewage out the window, all the time, what will happen?

Like this, God is being patient with evil people. Unforgiveness and conceit are of Satan's selfish and evil and disobedient spirit . . . which is very foul and nasty. So, God keeps these Satanic and anti-love things in control, in vessels specialized for holding these horrible things which are not fit for humans. But it is like how you can use good metal to make a sewer bucket, but you use other metal for holding milk > the same kind of metal can be specialized for making vessels for both the vile function and the nutritious benefit function.

So, I see that God is being patient and practical.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How did God endure with much patience the vessels of wrath as mentioned in Romans 9:22? What does it mean?

When people have made themselves into such creatures, God endures their existence rather than wiping them out. This is in hope they’ll repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The above is your answer.

According to Calvin no one can believe unless they are chosen by God and no one can receive the Holy Spirit until they believe. So how did this person receive the Holy Spirit then turn away?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The patience is needed because children of wrath are full of >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

At the human level, we see how humans have sewage. But they do not let it just be and go anywhere. They have vessels and systems specialized for holding and controlling sewage. And it takes patience to handle the sewage. It is smelly; it takes patience to put up with the smell while controlling it. But we keep it away from ourselves, as much as we can. If we are impatient to just throw our sewage out the window, all the time, what will happen?

Like this, God is being patient with evil people. Unforgiveness and conceit are of Satan's selfish and evil and disobedient spirit . . . which is very foul and nasty. So, God keeps these Satanic and anti-love things in control, in vessels specialized for holding these horrible things which are not fit for humans. But it is like how you can use good metal to make a sewer bucket, but you use other metal for holding milk > the same kind of metal can be specialized for making vessels for both the vile function and the nutritious benefit function.

So, I see that God is being patient and practical.

I don’t see how that even relates to patience towards the vessels of wrath.