Is Calvinism Just?

[com7fy8]

I don’t see how that even relates to patience towards the vessels of wrath.

The vessels of wrath are evil; so God is patient with them, instead of instantly sending them to hell.

And because the spirit of evil in sinners is so foul, it takes patience to put up with this nastiness while God is managing vessels of wrath.

You can consider how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father. So, in dealing with ones who are so opposite, so nasty, this takes patience.

 

[-57]

It’s probably difficult to understand. If i paint a picture of two fathers with 10 kids each and one decided before birth which kid he would financially support and which not whereas the other waited to see the kind of adults they made of themselves with his help, the injustice might be clearer. The former is the god of calvin.

I'm kinda missing your point...

Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[bling]

Jesus says the reason they did not believe is because he didn't die for them.

Christ did not die for them if His death was of no use to them, so if they do not accept the ransom (gift) of His death than Christ did not die for them but did die for those who accept.

 

[Dave L]

Christ did not die for them if His death was of no use to them, so if they do not accept the ransom (gift) of His death than Christ did not die for them but did die for those who accept.

Jesus said they did not believe because he didn't die for them. As clear as it gets.

 

[redleghunter]

It doesn’t rule out the possibility that God will accept anyone who will repent and believe. You can’t overlook the implications of this.

I guess we can make it what we want to say, however, what I posted was the context. The Jew vs. Gentile divide was real and strong in Jewish culture. It seemed the Diaspora Jews were a bit more inclined to the "Gentiles at the gate" or proselytes than the Palestine Jews. Remember they hated Samaritans as well. So after Pentecost when the Gospel spread through the various districts of Palestine and came to Samaria, the Apostles led by Phillip and then Peter exercised the keys of the Kingdom with the "half Jewish" Samaritans. Then God directing Peter to move off his roof to seek out Cornelius once again exercised the keys of the Kingdom by brining the Gospel to the Gentiles. They were quite astonished that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit as they did. That is where the "respecter of persons" comes from. (1) Peter's vision of unclean animals and told to eat and (2) the manifestation of the Holy Spirit with the Gentile believers.

We can glean, once we consider the context, that the Gospel of Grace is for all peoples and tongues and nations. To somehow tie Acts 10 and "respecter of persons" to election is a stretch and introducing an idea not inherent in the text. In fact what we can draw from Acts 10 is that Peter learned that day that God does choose Gentiles to be His people as well.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

It’s actually the Doctrines of Grace which Calvin would most likely support. The Doctrines of Grace are spelled out in the canons of Dort which was after Calvin died.

Considering the canons of Dort were originally written in Latin, folks getting hung up on the terms which make up the acronym TULIP need to realize they won’t find that in Dort either. Someone actually claimed TULIP came from the actual flower. That Dort was in the Netherlands and they had tulips there.

TULIP was first used in 1905 by Rev. Cleland Boyd.

So folks don’t get hung up on one word like total depravity and actually do some research on the source documents.

Oh and the Doctrines of Grace are based on Biblical exegesis.

Here are the canons of Dort:


Canons of Dort

The term "doctrines of grace" is well known as a replacement term for Calvinism. But lets not get into yet another debate on this subject.
Be blessed

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON
Closed for Review
ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON
Thread now reopened:
Please stay on the topic - is Calvinism just?
The topic is not interpreting scripture concerning Calvinism vs Arminianism.
Also address the topic, not the thread participants.
ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Calvinism teaches that God unjustly chooses some for Heaven (thereby choosing others for Hell) arbitrarily. This is extremely unjust. There is no hope for those so designated for hell. No salvation for them no matter what. This is very unjust.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus said they did not believe because he didn't die for them. As clear as it gets.

Pretty unjust of him, or is it the theology that teaches Jesus is unjust ? I recall “whosoever will...”

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said they did not believe because he didn't die for them. As clear as it gets.

That is not what Jesus said. He said you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

The argument comes down to this, according to Calvin’s theology, the unelected man is completely and utterly incapable of meeting God’s expectations for salvation. God’s expectations for salvation are completely impossible for man to achieve without God’s election. For God to judge and punish people in the lake of fire for all eternity who are incapable of meeting His impossible expectations His judgement would be unjust. Since we know that God is incapable of being unjust we are forced to conclude that Calvin’s interpretations are incorrect. That is of course unless someone can explain how it can be just for God to judge and punish people for failing to meet His impossible expectations.

 

[Gup20]

I would agree that Jesus did not die for those who would not believe and abide in Him. He has the authority to forgive whom He chooses. Those whom He acknowledges before The Father will be saved and those whom He denies before The Father will not be saved.

Limited Atonement
Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

[Rom 5:18 NASB] 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

The resurrection that resulted from Jesus' work is applied universally to all men -- sinners and saints alike. This repeals the first judgement -- Adam's judgement -- which was a universal judgment. What then follows is an individual judgment - the great white throne judgement:

[Rev 20:11-12 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

The universal or corporate judgment of Adam brought a judgment of death to the whole universe. The ground was cursed, the animals were cursed, the plants were cursed, and all mankind were cursed for Adam's one, single sin. Because of Jesus perfect, sinlessness, that original judgment of death must be repealed. Once repealed, a universal resurrection results. Once all are resurrected, individual judgments can occur.

So in a sense... Jesus did die for ALL, seeing as how His work results in a universal resurrection, and the opportunity for salvation to all who have faith to be preserved in the second, great-white-throne judgment. Yet, those who choose not to have faith will suffer a second judgment of death.

So Calvinism is UNJUST in that it holds that there is no universal resurrection as a result of Christ's work ... this is clearly contradictory to scripture, and is an UNJUST application of justice insomuch as a single righteous person on earth makes Adam's universal judgment unjust.

 

[BNR32FAN]

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

[Rom 5:18 NASB] 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

The resurrection that resulted from Jesus' work is applied universally to all men -- sinners and saints alike. This repeals the first judgement -- Adam's judgement -- which was a universal judgment. What then follows is an individual judgment - the great white throne judgement:

[Rev 20:11-12 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

The universal or corporate judgment of Adam brought a judgment of death to the whole universe. The ground was cursed, the animals were cursed, the plants were cursed, and all mankind were cursed for Adam's one, single sin. Because of Jesus perfect, sinlessness, that original judgment of death must be repealed. Once repealed, a universal resurrection results. Once all are resurrected, individual judgments can occur.

So in a sense... Jesus did die for ALL, seeing as how His work results in a universal resurrection, and the opportunity for salvation to all who have faith to be preserved in the second, great-white-throne judgment. Yet, those who choose not to have faith will suffer a second judgment of death.

Ok we’re not interpreting scripture here just discussing the topic. Interpreting scripture is pointless with the differences in opinion as to the correct interpretation. The goal of this thread is to determine whether God’s judgement according to Calvin doctrine is just or not. If God’s judgement is unjust according to Calvin’s doctrines then Calvin’s interpretations cannot be correct. To me this seems like a far better way to resolve this dispute.

 

[Gup20]

Ok we’re not interpreting scripture here just discussing the topic. Interpreting scripture is pointless with the differences in opinion as to the correct interpretation. The goal of this thread is to determine whether God’s judgement according to Calvin doctrine is just or not. If God’s judgement is unjust according to Calvin’s doctrines then Calvin’s interpretations cannot be correct. To me this seems like a far better way to resolve this dispute.

Re-read it with the edits.

 

[Albion]

Calvinism teaches that God unjustly chooses some for Heaven (thereby choosing others for Hell) arbitrarily.

Let's slow down for a moment. Calvinism does not teach that God acts unjustly. And it does not teach that he makes his choices arbitrarily. What remains is about what WE may think to be unjust.

In any case, there is no chance of making any progress on this subject if we don't know what Calvinism actually does teach.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Re-read it with the edits.

and is an UNJUST application of justice insomuch as a single righteous person on earth makes Adam's universal judgment unjust.

I don’t understand what this last part means friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let's slow down for a moment. Calvinism does not teach that God acts unjustly. And it does not teach that he makes his choices arbitrarily. What remains is about what WE may think to be unjust.

In any case, there is no chance of making any progress on this subject if we don't know what Calvinism actually does teach.

Is it just to punish a person in eternal hell fire for failing to accomplish an impossible task?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let's slow down for a moment. Calvinism does not teach that God acts unjustly. And it does not teach that he makes his choices arbitrarily. What remains is about what WE may think to be unjust.

In any case, there is no chance of making any progress on this subject if we don't know what Calvinism actually does teach.

Do you disagree with the definition of the doctrines I provided in the OP?

 

[royal priest]

What makes the elect any different from the other lost sheep?

God does not show partiality in terms of merit. His choice is based solely upon His prerogative of grace, and is in no way affected by any act of the recipient of that grace. If anything, the opposite is true. God said He chose Israel because they were the least of all the nation's. Paul tells us that God has chosen the worthless things of this world in order to shame the "high and mighty".