Is "Calvinism" Biblical?

[redleghunter]

Why would God command all men to repent, which is a thing some men cannot do, according to Calvinists?

Somebody here is talking out of both sides of their mouth...

.

Do all men repent?

 

[redleghunter]

Ok so your saying that because Jesus chose them they cannot fail to abide? Then why does Jesus tell them to abide even explaining to them the consequences of not abiding if they cannot fail? That means the entire message is useless and of no value.

It’s only useless if one uses the passage to create a pretext ignoring the full context.

 

[redleghunter]

Then Jesus’ entire message is pointless

It’s pointless only in that it does not support your pretext.

 

[redleghunter]

But according to John 6:64 Judas never believed and according to John 12:6 he was stealing money from the treasury. Judas was never in Christ. Furthermore verses 1-5 Jesus is constantly saying “you must abide, you cannot produce fruit unless you abide, then verse 6 He says “if a man” which also means “anyone” then continues in verses 7-10 again with “you” in His statements indicating this message is for the faithful 11. He says the word “you” about 13 times in verses 1-10. That doesn’t indicate that He was talking about Judas.

First the NLT you are using to make the point is a terrible paraphrase version to conduct Bible study. Here’s the literal word for word NASB:
John 15: NASB

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. (NASB)

Judas is seen in verse 6

Continuing:

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.(NASB)

Verses 14-17 are the 11 chosen by Christ and abiding.

Notice He said this to them when shortly after all would turn tail and abandon Him and one deny Him 3 times.

Did Jesus reject them and “throw them in the fire?” As a matter of context the next time Jesus sees them after His resurrection He says “Peace be with you.” Amazing isn’t it.

 

[redleghunter]

But according to John 6:64 Judas never believed and according to John 12:6 he was stealing money from the treasury. Judas was never in Christ. Furthermore verses 1-5 Jesus is constantly saying “you must abide, you cannot produce fruit unless you abide, then verse 6 He says “if a man” which also means “anyone” then continues in verses 7-10 again with “you” in His statements indicating this message is for the faithful 11. He says the word “you” about 13 times in verses 1-10. That doesn’t indicate that He was talking about Judas.

What does unabiding look like to you?

How many sins does it take. One? 20?

Is there a difference between a little abiding and a point where we completely stop abiding and what does that look like? Please quantify.

Also, does God have a say in the abiding? I mean John 15:1 says the Father is the Vinedresser.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The above is a pretext to fit a theological concept instead of looking at the context and drawing out the truth. The difference between eisegesis and exegesis respectively.

Judas just left. Jesus was reassuring the 11.

Reassuring would’ve sounded more like this.

I am the vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me will bear fruit and He will never take it away. You will abide in me because I abide in you. You will produce much fruit because you abide in me and I in you.

But that’s nothing like what Jesus is saying. According to what your saying no one who is grafted into the vine can ever be taken away or cut off but that’s not the message here. I’m just quoting the message the way it’s written. I’m not adding anything to it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First the NLT you are using to make the point is a terrible paraphrase version to conduct Bible study. Here’s the literal word for word NASB:
John 15: NASB

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. (NASB)

Judas is seen in verse 6

Continuing:

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.(NASB)

Verses 14-17 are the 11 chosen by Christ and abiding.

Notice He said this to them when shortly after all would turn tail and abandon Him and one deny Him 3 times.

Did Jesus reject them and “throw them in the fire?” As a matter of context the next time Jesus sees them after His resurrection He says “Peace be with you.” Amazing isn’t it.

Can you please point out the particular problem in the NLT translation? I’ve already compared it to the Greek interliear several times and haven’t found anything wrong with it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Notice no fruit. It does not tell the story of a previously fruit bearing tree not having fruit or stopping to produce fruit.

See John 15:15-18

I really don’t know what to say about that. You’ll have to talk to the author about that one. I can only testify to what is said not what isn’t said.

 

[BABerean2]

Do all men repent?

Act_3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Those that truly belong to Christ do, based on the verse above.

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s pointless only in that it does not support your pretext.

If He was telling them you will undoubtedly abide because I chose you then His message in verses 1-8 are completely useless.

Ok let’s assume you are correct and in verses 15 & 16 Jesus is reassuring them that they will undoubtedly abide and bear much fruit because that’s why He chose them. Then what is Jesus saying in verses

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What does unabiding look like to you?

How many sins does it take. One? 20?

Is there a difference between a little abiding and a point where we completely stop abiding and what does that look like? Please quantify.

Also, does God have a say in the abiding? I mean John 15:1 says the Father is the Vinedresser.

Let me ask you a question. Did you stop sinning when you received the Holy Spirit? Did you all the sudden become remote controlled by the Holy Spirit after receiving Him? Or did you experience an overwhelming desire to serve God and do what pleases Him? I’ll bet that even after receiving this overwhelming desire you’ve probably still sinned since then. Your sin was not from the Holy Spirit it was from your own desires. This means that just because someone has the Holy Spirit in them doesn’t mean they must obey Him. If that were the case no one who has received the Holy Spirit would ever sin. As far as how much sin or how much fruit I don’t know. According to John 15 we must continue to produce fruit. According to other scriptures we cannot make a habit of willful sin. Living a life of willful and habitual sin is living in unrepentance. There are many scriptures that teach that anyone who lives a sinful life will not enter the kingdom of heaven. These scriptures include everyone not just unbelievers. Personally I believe they we’re written specifically for believers. I don’t believe they can be pertaining to unbelievers because they will not receive atonement to so they don’t qualify to enter the God’s kingdom in the first place regardless of how they live their life.

 

[BABerean2]

I’m not seeing how all those isolated verses refute Reformed doctrine. Maybe you could under the verse explain what you think you are refuting.

Most Reformed go with exegesis and by extension examine the Scriptures in an expository manner. A systematic approach.

Reformed Covenant Theology claims the New Covenant is a "new administration" of the Sinai Covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
(Paul contrasts "the ministry of death written on stones", to the ministry of the Spirit. Paul says we are ministers of the New Covenant.)

Galatians 4:24-31
(Paul compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".)

Hebrews 7:12
(There has been a change in the law.)

Hebrews 8:6-13
(The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".)

Hebrews 12:18-24
(We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire (Sinai), but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.)

The texts above prove there has been a change in the law.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, since it was the "sign" of the now "obsolete" Sinai Covenant.

Based on Matthew 5:27-28, the Law of Christ is a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[redleghunter]

Can you please point out the particular problem in the NLT translation? I’ve already compared it to the Greek interliear several times and haven’t found anything wrong with it.

The NLT is a paraphrase Bible translation. It’s not suited for word to word translation.

 

[redleghunter]

Reassuring would’ve sounded more like this.

I am the vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me will bear fruit and He will never take it away. You will abide in me because I abide in you. You will produce much fruit because you abide in me and I in you.

But that’s nothing like what Jesus is saying. According to what your saying no one who is grafted into the vine can ever be taken away or cut off but that’s not the message here. I’m just quoting the message the way it’s written. I’m not adding anything to it.

The reassurance is evident in verses John:15-18.

 

[redleghunter]

I’m just quoting the message the way it’s written. I’m not adding anything to it.

You stop at verse 10.

What happens after this?

He tells them to love one another as He loved them. Then He discourses on how the world will hate them as they hated Him. Then speaks of persecution in their future.

He is speaking of them bearing their cross. Real serious stuff to be a disciple.

Then He tells them of the Helper (Holy Spirit) will testify of Him.

Flip next chapter 16 where Jesus tells them all He has told them was so they will not stumble. And that when the hour comes (His arrest, trial, crucifixion and death) that they would remember what He said to them. Interesting isn’t when put in context.

That’s not all. Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit. Then knows they will weep at His death but will be turned to Joy. Then knowing their anguish at hearing this yet what He has told them will bring them peace and to rejoice as He has overcome the World.

Flip to chapter 17 The High Priestly prayer of Jesus to the Father for the disciples and not only them but those who believe through their word.

John 17: NASB

. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

[...]

20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. (NASB)

A chain of unbroken events from John 13 through John 17. Notice the prayer for the 11 (could be more disciples too in addition to the 11) they were given to Jesus from the Father which is consistent with John 10 and Shepherd and sheep discourse. The very sheep the Father gives Him who will never perish and will not be snatched from His hand.

Then chapter 18 after all of this Jesus is betrayed by the son of perdition, Judas, Peter decides to (free will!) play Brave Heart and cut off an ear, but then scatters with the rest fulfilling the Scriptures.

You know the rest.

Even though scattered the 11 remember what Jesus tells them. The promise of their preservation (preservation of the saints) comes to be as only the son of perdition who does not abide in the Vine John 15:6 is eventually the branch which dries up and is cast in fire.

Showing the entire story sure does make sense of it all.

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

I really don’t know what to say about that. You’ll have to talk to the author about that one. I can only testify to what is said not what isn’t said.

It’s you and others entering the text with the precondition of “loss of salvation” and applying the precondition across several isolated verses robbing them of the context.

Instead all the fruit stories and parables show no fruit. Which would in most cases confirm those who are not His sheep will not produce fruit.

 

[redleghunter]

Act_3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Those that truly belong to Christ do, based on the verse above.

.

And what is your point? Of course those called effectually will repent.

 

[redleghunter]

Let me ask you a question. Did you stop sinning when you received the Holy Spirit? Did you all the sudden become remote controlled by the Holy Spirit after receiving Him? Or did you experience an overwhelming desire to serve God and do what pleases Him? I’ll bet that even after receiving this overwhelming desire you’ve probably still sinned since then. Your sin was not from the Holy Spirit it was from your own desires. This means that just because someone has the Holy Spirit in them doesn’t mean they must obey Him. If that were the case no one who has received the Holy Spirit would ever sin. As far as how much sin or how much fruit I don’t know. According to John 15 we must continue to produce fruit. According to other scriptures we cannot make a habit of willful sin. Living a life of willful and habitual sin is living in unrepentance. There are many scriptures that teach that anyone who lives a sinful life will not enter the kingdom of heaven. These scriptures include everyone not just unbelievers. Personally I believe they we’re written specifically for believers. I don’t believe they can be pertaining to unbelievers because they will not receive atonement to so they don’t qualify to enter the God’s kingdom in the first place regardless of how they live their life.

What does sinning and fruit production (which comes from the Vine) have to do with each other?

A serious question as Jesus is telling them to abide to produce fruit because the fruit comes from Him.

Yet you snuck in there a straw man of willful and habitual sinning and a reprobate unrepentant hardened heart.

The Scriptures are clear I believe on explaining your straw man...such a heart is not of the Lord and He never knew them.

And I think we have exposed the error and heresy of Decisional regeneration. People hear the Gospel make a physical move to an altar then ushered into decisonal or contemplation rooms with trained “evangelists” where they get a firm decision, sign some papers to become members, get the tithing bank draft complete. All like a time share deal.

Then people wonder why these “saved” folks (some truly are) never change and don’t want to change.

Did I get it about right?

 

[redleghunter]

Reformed Covenant Theology claims the New Covenant is a "new administration" of the Sinai Covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
(Paul contrasts "the ministry of death written on stones", to the ministry of the Spirit. Paul says we are ministers of the New Covenant.)

Galatians 4:24-31
(Paul compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".)

Hebrews 7:12
(There has been a change in the law.)

Hebrews 8:6-13
(The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".)

Hebrews 12:18-24
(We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire (Sinai), but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.)

The texts above prove there has been a change in the law.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, since it was the "sign" of the now "obsolete" Sinai Covenant.

Based on Matthew 5:27-28, the Law of Christ is a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Might I ask how that is refuting Reformed theology?

I’ve read the exchange between you @JM and @Apologetic_Warrior .

You keep pounding Sinai when they have only spoken of moral law. The moral law has never changed from Eden. It’s about obedience to God.

That is why there is no salvation without the imputed righteousness of Christ. His Perfect obedience.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The NLT is a paraphrase Bible translation. It’s not suited for word to word translation.

Ok then please show me where the translation is incorrect. As I said I’ve compared it to the Greek interlinear and in this case it is accurate.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok then please show me where the translation is incorrect. As I said I’ve compared it to the Greek interlinear and in this case it is accurate.

It’s a visual. Find your NLT on the spectrum scale: