Is "Calvinism" Biblical?
- Thread starter JM
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How do the infants of believers gain salvation, but the children of pagans do not, if they both have the sin nature of Adam?
If the children of believers are "holy" and that means they are no longer under the curse of sin, do they need to confess Christ later in life?
Does infant baptism remove sin from these children?
If they are deathly ill, but survive are they automatically saved?
How does a person get into the New Covenant without faith in Christ, as found in Ephesians 1:13?
If the baby is ill should the parents make sure the baby is baptized?
Do you deny that the early Calvinists were baby baptizers?
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"we have, therefore, a spiritual promise given to the patriarches in circumcision such as is given us in baptism, since it represented for them[the Jews] forgiveness of sins and mortification of the flesh"(Inst.4, 16, 3).
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Early Church Fathers before Augustine on Free Will...
Irenaeus on Free Will...
Irenaeus on Free Will
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"we have, therefore, a spiritual promise given to the patriarches in circumcision such as is given us in baptism, since it represented for them[the Jews] forgiveness of sins and mortification of the flesh"(Inst.4, 16, 3).
If Calvin was not linking baptism to forgiveness of sins, can you tell us what it does say?
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
So what’s your point? Do you believe that the infant children of believers who die in infancy are not saved? The point of Article 17 is that they are. Not because they were baptized as infants, which seems to be what you were implying, but because God is gracious.
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Calvinism correctly asserts that all are born with the sin nature of Adam, and now you want to turn around and claim that the infants of believers are different from the infants of non-believers.
This is a tremendous paradox within your doctrine.
Is the graciousness of God based on who our parents would be?
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Really...
One verse ripped out of its context does not bring salvation, or doctrine.
The context is found in 1 Corinthians 7:12, and in verse 16.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
Paul makes sure to let the reader know that the advice in this section of the letter is coming from him, and not from God.
1 Corinthians 7:12
(CJB) To the rest I say -- I, not the Lord: if any brother has a wife who is not a believer, and she is satisfied to go on living with him, he should not leave her.
(ESV) To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
(Geneva) But to ye remnant I speake, & not ye Lord, If any brother haue a wife, ye beleeueth not, if she be cotent to dwell with him, let him not forsake her.
(Greek NT TR) τοις δε λοιποις εγω λεγω ουχ ο κυριος ει τις αδελφος γυναικα εχει απιστον και αυτη συνευδοκει οικειν μετ αυτου μη αφιετω αυτην
(GW) I (not the Lord) say to the rest of you: If any Christian man is married to a woman who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to live with him, he should not divorce her.
(LITV-TSP) But to the rest I say, not the Lord, if any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, let him not leave her.
(KJV) But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
(KJV+) ButG1161 to theG3588 restG3062 speakG3004 I,G1473 notG3756 theG3588 Lord:G2962 If anyG1536 brotherG80 hathG2192 a wifeG1135 that believeth not,G571 andG2532 sheG846 be pleasedG4909 to dwellG3611 withG3326 him,G846 let him notG3361 put her away.G863 G846
(NKJV) But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.
(YLT) And to the rest I speak—not the Lord—if any brother hath a wife unbelieving, and she is pleased to dwell with him, let him not send her away;
In verse 16 Paul explains why a person who comes to salvation does not have to leave his or her unbelieving spouse and children.
It is because the believer's influence may bring the spouse and children to faith.
1 Corinthians 7:16
(CJB) For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
(ESV) For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
(Geneva) For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt saue thine husband? Or what knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt saue thy wife?
(Greek NT TR) τι γαρ οιδας γυναι ει τον ανδρα σωσεις η τι οιδας ανερ ει την γυναικα σωσεις
(GW) How do you as a wife know whether you will save your husband? How do you as a husband know whether you will save your wife?
(LITV-TSP) For what do you know, wife, whether you will save the husband? Or what do you know, husband, whether you will save the wife?
(KJV) For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
(KJV+) ForG1063 whatG5101 knowestG1492 thou, O wife,G1135 whetherG1487 thou shalt saveG4982 thy husband?G435 orG2228 howG5101 knowestG1492 thou, O man,G435 whetherG1487 thou shalt saveG4982 thy wife?G1135
(NKJV) For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
(YLT) for what, hast thou known, O wife, whether the husband thou shalt save? or what, hast thou known, O husband, whether the wife thou shalt save?
All man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
The above is an excellent example of this fact.
If this is what is required to make Calvinism work, it cannot be from God.
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The word of God, in 1 Corinthians 7:14, tells us that the children of believers are holy. Your bizarre use of fonts does not change this fact.
Now one could have a debate on what exactly "holy" means here, and that debate took place many years ago, but the word of God is the word of God.
And you are incorrect to suggest that 1 Corinthians 7:14 is merely an opinion of Paul. It's a truth that he's stating in support of his argument about divorce.
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A Reformed Baptist View of I Cor. 7:14
by Stan Reeves
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. I Cor. 7:14
Introduction
The implications of I Cor. 7:14 for the issue of infant baptism have often been debated by baptists and paedobaptists. Regrettably, both sides have been guilty of handling this passage in a simplistic manner. The paedobaptist errors are particularly disturbing, since most paedobaptists appeal to this passage to help establish their case for infant baptism. To read some of their claims, one would think that the passage implies infant baptism in a most obvious way. A closer examination, however, reveals that this passage offers no support for infant baptism; in fact, we will see that the passage actually argues against infant baptism.
A Critique of the Paedobaptist Interpretation
The paedobaptist argument from I Cor. 7:14 is expressed well by John Murray:
The apostle was writing to encourage them against this fear [that their Christian standing would be prejudiced by this mixed relationship]. The encouragement he provides is that the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the brother. In order to reinforce the argument drawn from this principle he appeals to what had been apparently recognised among the Corinthians, namely, that the children of even one believing parent were not unclean but rather holy. (Christian Baptism, p. 64)
This argument, though plausible on the surface, reveals serious difficulties upon closer examination. The Greek term "is sanctified" referring to the unbelieving spouse is simply the verb form of the adjective "holy" that refers to the children. Therefore, we must question any interpretation that posits a different meaning for the two terms. But the paedobaptist argument does just that. The holiness of the children is taken to be such that it qualifies them for baptism. The holiness of the unbelieving spouse, however, does not qualify him or her for baptism. What exactly is the holiness that the children possess? According to Murray, it "evinces the operation of the covenant and representative principle." However, this meaning must be denied in connection with the unbelieving spouse. Otherwise, the unbelieving spouse would be "in the covenant" and have a right to baptism.
Strangely enough, few paedobaptists address this difficulty. Although Murray, Calvin, Henry, Hodge, Marcel, Sydenham, and Poole all make the argument for covenant status of the child from the passage, none of them seem to recognize that this implies covenant status for the unbelieving spouse too. (Or maybe they consider the objection so trivial and the rebuttal so obvious that they don't bother with it.)
One might argue that "holiness" has the same meaning but different implications for adult and child. But this is not generally what is claimed concerning the meaning of "holiness". Holiness for the child here does not simply imply covenant status; it denotes it. Murray says "there is a status or condition that can be characterised as `holiness'." Hodge says, "The children...are universally recognized as holy, that is, as belonging to the church" and "Otherwise, your children would be unclean, i.e. born out of the pale of the church." (I Corinthians, p. 116) Quotes could be multiplied from Marcel and others.
Bromiley, on the other hand, is bold enough to admit the connection: "[the unbelieving spouse] is separated to God, enjoys a status within the covenant, and comes into the sphere of evangelical action and promise." (Children of Promise, p. 8) But if the unbelieving spouse is in the covenant, then how can baptism be denied to him or her? It is a cornerstone of paedobaptist theology that "the covenant is the sole basis of infant baptism" and that "the ground of baptism is thus identical for adults and children." (Marcel, The Biblical Doctrine of Infant Baptism) Bromiley does not tell us how to resolve this difficulty.
Another difficulty in drawing a distinction between the sanctification of the unbelieving spouse and the holiness of the children is this: The more one presses the distinction between the two concepts, the more one weakens the force of Paul's argument in the passage. Paul's argument is predicated on a similarity between the two parties. If the two cases are different, then the logic breaks down. The covenant status of the children is no encouragement for a believer to remain with his unbelieving spouse if the unbelieving spouse does not also enjoy the same status.
The holiness of the children is assumed to be sufficient to include them in the covenant and qualify them for baptism. This holiness is adequate for the believer not to be defiled by his own children. Is the holiness of the unbelieving spouse also adequate to prevent the defilement of the believer? If we adopt the paedobaptist understanding of the passage, we are left in doubt. The sanctification must be at least as thorough and of the same character as that of the children, else we cannot be sure that the holiness of the children implies a holiness in the unbelieving spouse that is sufficient not to defile the believer.
Any attempt to distinguish the sanctification of the unbelieving spouse from the holiness of the children is necessarily an exercise in eisegesis rather than exegesis. Nothing in the passage suggests that these two concepts differ, and the language itself and the proximity of the terms is a strong argument that they are the same. Eisegesis may be necessary to harmonize a difficult passage with passages that speak more clearly, but it is arrogant at best to eisegete a passage and then claim it as a proof-text for your doctrine. At best, eisegesis can vindicate your doctrine in light of a difficult passage; it cannot be used as an argument in favor of your doctrine.
The objection we have brought forward is serious. It calls into question the value of one of the pivotal passages used in the paedobaptist apologetic. I would hope that paedobaptists would drop this passage from their apologetic in light of the serious difficulties in their interpretation. In spite of that, I acknowledge that my disproof of the paedobaptist assertion from this passage is not the same as proving the contrary. Furthermore, baptists have also been guilty of misinterpreting this passage.
A Critique of the Usual Baptist Interpretations
John Gill states the common baptist view of this passage as follows:The children are holy in the same sense as their parents are; that as they are sanctified, or lawfully espoused together, so the children born of them were in a civil and legal sense holy, that is, legitimate. (Gill's Expositor)This view rightly interprets "is sanctified" and "holy" in a similar sense; that is, both terms refer to lawfulness or legitimacy. Even so, one might justifiably object that different nuances creep into these terms as expounded by proponents of this view. If the language "is sanctified" is derived from the concept of the marriage covenant as the proponents of this view usually maintain, then the "holiness" of the children necessarily takes on a different focus. It seems that the proponents of this view are flirting with the very error that they seek to avoid.
An even more decisive critique of this view is enunciated by Richard Baxter. According to the common views of both baptists and paedobaptists, Paul argues from a fact accepted by the Corinthians -- the holiness of the children -- to prove the sanctification of the unbelieving spouse. We should ask then how it is possible that the Corinthians knew the former while still questioning the latter. Baxter argues that it is impossible to know that one's children are legitimate without also knowing the sanctity of the marriage from which they sprang. By very definition, a legitimate child is one who is born of a legitimate marriage! One cannot conceive of the notion of a legitimate child apart from the legitimacy of the union from which that child came. Therefore, this interpretation does not account for the state of knowledge assumed in this passage. (Plain Scripture Proof, pp. 86-87).
One might respond that the children contemplated here are only those that were born before the conversion of one parent; in this case, the legitimacy of these children is beyond question. That is true, of course, but this restriction completely undermines the power of the argument. These children's legitimacy only testifies to the sanctity of the marriage before the conversion of one of the parents. It says nothing of the legitimacy of the marriage after one parent's conversion, nor does it address the legitimacy of children born after this conversion. To restrict the scope of the children here would leave the Corinthians' question unanswered.
Another view of this passage is given by David Kingdon:
...the offering up of the believing spouse sanctifies the whole, not in the sense of making inwardly holy but in setting the family apart for the operation of the grace of God in salvation through the witness of the believing partner (I Cor. 7:16). Paul is confident of the power of the Gospel to exert, in many cases, a truly converting and sanctifying influence on the family through a Christian father or mother. Therefore, the believer should on his part not break the marriage bond if the unbelieving partner is willing to continue in it. (Children of Abraham, p. 90)
While this is true as far as it goes, it does not fully come to grips with the nature of Paul's argument. In fact, it fails at exactly the same point as the view described previously -- it fails to account for the Corinthians' state of knowledge. It appears from Kingdon's description that sanctified and holy mean "set apart to the power of Gospel influence." If so, why would the Corinthians know that the gospel has a powerful converting and sanctifying influence on their children but doubt this in the case of their unconverted spouse? Contrary to the previous view, it is possible that this describes the Corinthians' understanding. However, such a peculiar state of understanding cries out for some plausible explanation of its origin, and no such explanation is offered.
Furthermore, even if the Corinthians were convinced of the sanctifying influence of the gospel in the life of an unbelieving spouse, how does this remove the scruple they had about remaining with the spouse? Gospel influence may often come even through unlawful associations. One might argue with equal validity that it is lawful to marry an unbeliever because the believer can exert a sanctifying influence on the unbeliever through the marriage.
Finally, on what basis are we to believe that the holiness of the children implies holiness of an unbelieving spouse? This interpretation does not show us why Paul's logic is compelling. It is conceivable that the Corinthians would have been left with continuing doubts about the issue.
Thus, the common interpretations of baptists and paedobaptists alike are clearly inadequate.
A Stronger Baptist Interpretation
A great deal of confusion has arisen over this passage because interpreters have failed to consider the nature of Paul's logic in the passage. The common baptist and paedobaptist views both understand Paul to be making a cause/effect argument. In their view, Paul is arguing from the presence of a known effect to the presence of its cause or necessary condition. The argument can be stated in the form of a syllogism:
Major premise: Sanctification of the unbelieving spouse is necessary for the holiness of your children;
Minor premise: Your children are holy;
Conclusion: Therefore, the unbelieving spouse is sanctified.
This construction of Paul's reasoning is an assumption unwarranted by the text. In my view, Paul considers the case of the children to be parallel to that of the unbelieving spouse. He is arguing from analogy rather than by cause/effect. If the unbelieving spouse is holy, the children are holy; if the unbelieving spouse is unclean, the children are unclean -- not because one causes the other but because they are like cases. This view was proposed by John Dagg (Manual of Theology, Part II, pp. 155-156, and "A Decisive Argument Against Infant Baptism, Furnished by One of Its Own Proof-Texts") in the mid-1800's and was adopted by several of his contemporaries. However, it appears to have fallen into obscurity in later years; I have not seen it so much as mentioned in any discussion of the passage published after the mid-1800's. It is time then to blow the dust off this view and give it the consideration that it deserves. In the discussion that follows, I rely heavily on Dagg's work.
According to Dagg, Paul considers the question and
decides that a believer and an unbeliever may lawfully dwell together...The intercourse of a married pair with each other, and that of parents with their children, must be regulated by the same rule. An unconverted husband or wife stands on the same level with unconverted children. If intercourse with the former is unlawful, intercourse with the latter is equally unlawful. [The contrary decision] would sever the ties that bind parents to their children, and [force them to leave their children]. By showing that this monstrous consequence legitimately follows from the doctrine, he has furnished an argument against it which is perfectly conclusive.Is there evidence for a parallel argument as Dagg advocates? Yes. The language of the passage points strongly in this direction. First, there is the pronoun "your" (plural in the Greek). Virtually all commentators assume without question that "your children" are the children of the mixed marriages being discussed in the passage. But why would Paul say "your children" instead of "their children", since in the immediate context he is referring to the marriage partners in the third person? Paul is in the middle of a section in which he is dealing case-by-case with various questions that had been addressed to him by the church as a whole (v. 1). He is addressing the church as a whole in his answer, even though he is discussing the cases of various subgroups within the church. When he says "your children", he is signifying the children of those whom he is addressing, that is, the children of the church members as a whole, not the children of the mixed marriages exclusively.
In v. 8, he addresses a specific subgroup with the statement, "I say to the unmarried and to widows". Yet he goes on to address them in the third person -- "it is good for them if they remain even as I". He follows the same pattern in v. 10 and again in v. 12. In vv. 13-15 on both sides of the pronoun in question, Paul consistently uses the third person to refer to the believing partner. Following the same style, Paul would have said "otherwise their children are unclean" if he had been referring exclusively to the children of these mixed marriages. In v. 16, he addresses the believing partner in the second person, but he explicitly states the party that he is addressing, and even here he uses the singular.
In v. 5 Paul uses the second person to address a specific subgroup without a formal notice of the restricted audience. However, in this context he is addressing a general concern touching the church as a whole (see vv. 1-2 and v. 7). He is issuing a directive, which makes the shift to the second person natural and expected. This is an extended statement whose intended audience is utterly unambiguous. It applies to all who were married just as "your children" applies to all who had children.
Finally, if we insist on finding a reference to "your" in the immediate context, the logical referent is the unbelieving spouse. The unbelieving spouse is the subject of the previous sentence and is more prominently in view than the believing spouse. But is it likely that Paul addressed those outside the church with "your" when in the broader context he is addressing specific questions of the church?
continued
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These considerations point us to the conclusion that "your children" refers to the children of all the church members and not to those of mixed marriages exclusively. But how does this bear on the nature of Paul's argument? If some of "your children" are not the fruit of mixed marriages, then we cannot explain how they could hypothetically be unclean as the effect of an unsanctified unbelieving parent. In other words, the argument must be understood as an argument of analogy rather than of cause/effect.
Another evidence that Paul was arguing from parallel cases is the tenses of the verbs in the passage. Literally, we have the following translation: "The unbelieving [spouse] is made holy in the [believing spouse]; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy." The verb "is made holy" is in the perfect tense, and "are" is in the present. The implied major premise is: If the unbelieving spouse is not made holy, your children are unclean. In contrast, cause/effect arguments ordinarily use a temporal progression in their verb choice to signify a dependent consequence. In such a case, a more natural choice for the implied major premise would be: If the unbelieving spouse had not been made holy, then your children would be unclean. The passage would then read: "The unbelieving spouse is made holy in the believing spouse; otherwise your children would be (or "were") unclean, but now they are holy". (Regrettably, this word choice appears in many translations, although there is no warrant for it other than the mistaken notion that Paul is making a cause/effect argument.)
The use of "would be unclean" is the most natural wording for the situation in which the contrary is an established fact to the audience. When Christ said to the Pharisees, "If God were your father, you would love me", the contrary fact "you do not love me" was established and known to the audience. Christ did not need to say explictly "but you do not love me" since this fact was known to both him and his audience. On the contrary, in I Cor. 15:16, when Paul said "If the dead are not raised, then neither is Christ raised", he did not assume that his audience accepted Christ's resurrection. Instead, he went on to show that the denial of the resurrection leads to absurdity to complete his argument. In Dagg's argument, the cleanness of the children is not so much taken as an established fact; instead, the contrary notion leads to absurdity. Paul's use of "is unclean" and his conclusion with the statement "but now they are holy" more naturally suggests that his argument does not assume the children's cleanness as an established fact. Therefore, it suggests that the common cause/effect interpretation is in error.
Another phrase in the passage also suggests a parallel argument. We note that the Greek phrase "epei ara" translated "otherwise" is only used one other time in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in a nearby passage, I Cor. 5:10, where Paul makes a similar argument concerning a similar issue. He argues that we are not to avoid contact with immoral people as a class; otherwise, it is necessary for us to go out of this world. In this passage Paul is arguing using parallel cases. He argues that if we avoid contact with immoral people, then we must also avoid contact with other people to whom we need to relate. The similarity of word choice and issues in the two passages suggests that the nature of the argument is similar too.
None of these arguments is conclusive in itself. Taken together, however, they form a strong case for understanding the argument as one of parallel cases rather than cause/effect. Furthermore, even if all of these arguments can be overthrown, it would not provide any positive evidence for the opposing view. In fact, the parallel cases view would still be preferable simply because of its natural accord with the passage and the insurmountable difficulties of the alternative. This interpretation is strong in exactly the ways in which the others are weak. It assigns an identical meaning to the holiness of the children and the sanctification of the unbelieving spouse. Furthermore, it accounts for the fact that the holiness of the children is accepted as true, for the contrary would call into question the relation between all believing parents and their children, which the Corinthians agreed was contrary to all Christian principles. Finally, it gives cogency and strength to Paul's logic. It applies directly to all mixed marriages, whether there are children or not. And the effect of the opposite conclusion would be so horrible that it compels agreement with Paul's decision.
The Question of Infant Baptism
Interestingly enough, the interpretation given here does more than free us from an argument for paedobaptism. It actually provides a strong argument against paedobaptism. Paul's argument is founded on the similarity between the case of unbelieving spouses and the case of believers' children. If the holiness of the unbelieving spouse falls short of qualifying him/her for baptism, then by Paul's reasoning the holiness of believers' children falls short of this too. If the church at Corinth admitted their children to baptism and church membership but denied this to unbelieving spouses, then the two groups were in quite different circumstances. Thus, Paul's argument would be completely invalid. Since Paul's argument must be valid, we are forced to conclude that the church at Corinth did not admit their children to baptism or church membership.
It may be objected that this interpretation forces us to understand children to refer only to unconverted children if we are to maintain the parallel with the unbelieving spouse. We grant that the children considered must be outside the church to maintain the parallel. However, we need not read the word "children" as "unconverted children". The word for children here is tekna, which can equally well be translated "offspring". Paul is contemplating them in the natural state as they are born to believing parents, not as they may eventually come to be by the grace of God. Moreover, we should observe that the paedobaptist view is subject to the same objection, since the holiness of children in their view only applies to the offspring of believers as long as they are literally children and have not yet repudiated the covenant.
Having shown the weaknesses of the competing views and the strength of this view, I commend it to you as the true sense of this passage.
End Quote
Another evidence that Paul was arguing from parallel cases is the tenses of the verbs in the passage. Literally, we have the following translation: "The unbelieving [spouse] is made holy in the [believing spouse]; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy." The verb "is made holy" is in the perfect tense, and "are" is in the present. The implied major premise is: If the unbelieving spouse is not made holy, your children are unclean. In contrast, cause/effect arguments ordinarily use a temporal progression in their verb choice to signify a dependent consequence. In such a case, a more natural choice for the implied major premise would be: If the unbelieving spouse had not been made holy, then your children would be unclean. The passage would then read: "The unbelieving spouse is made holy in the believing spouse; otherwise your children would be (or "were") unclean, but now they are holy". (Regrettably, this word choice appears in many translations, although there is no warrant for it other than the mistaken notion that Paul is making a cause/effect argument.)
The use of "would be unclean" is the most natural wording for the situation in which the contrary is an established fact to the audience. When Christ said to the Pharisees, "If God were your father, you would love me", the contrary fact "you do not love me" was established and known to the audience. Christ did not need to say explictly "but you do not love me" since this fact was known to both him and his audience. On the contrary, in I Cor. 15:16, when Paul said "If the dead are not raised, then neither is Christ raised", he did not assume that his audience accepted Christ's resurrection. Instead, he went on to show that the denial of the resurrection leads to absurdity to complete his argument. In Dagg's argument, the cleanness of the children is not so much taken as an established fact; instead, the contrary notion leads to absurdity. Paul's use of "is unclean" and his conclusion with the statement "but now they are holy" more naturally suggests that his argument does not assume the children's cleanness as an established fact. Therefore, it suggests that the common cause/effect interpretation is in error.
Another phrase in the passage also suggests a parallel argument. We note that the Greek phrase "epei ara" translated "otherwise" is only used one other time in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in a nearby passage, I Cor. 5:10, where Paul makes a similar argument concerning a similar issue. He argues that we are not to avoid contact with immoral people as a class; otherwise, it is necessary for us to go out of this world. In this passage Paul is arguing using parallel cases. He argues that if we avoid contact with immoral people, then we must also avoid contact with other people to whom we need to relate. The similarity of word choice and issues in the two passages suggests that the nature of the argument is similar too.
None of these arguments is conclusive in itself. Taken together, however, they form a strong case for understanding the argument as one of parallel cases rather than cause/effect. Furthermore, even if all of these arguments can be overthrown, it would not provide any positive evidence for the opposing view. In fact, the parallel cases view would still be preferable simply because of its natural accord with the passage and the insurmountable difficulties of the alternative. This interpretation is strong in exactly the ways in which the others are weak. It assigns an identical meaning to the holiness of the children and the sanctification of the unbelieving spouse. Furthermore, it accounts for the fact that the holiness of the children is accepted as true, for the contrary would call into question the relation between all believing parents and their children, which the Corinthians agreed was contrary to all Christian principles. Finally, it gives cogency and strength to Paul's logic. It applies directly to all mixed marriages, whether there are children or not. And the effect of the opposite conclusion would be so horrible that it compels agreement with Paul's decision.
The Question of Infant Baptism
Interestingly enough, the interpretation given here does more than free us from an argument for paedobaptism. It actually provides a strong argument against paedobaptism. Paul's argument is founded on the similarity between the case of unbelieving spouses and the case of believers' children. If the holiness of the unbelieving spouse falls short of qualifying him/her for baptism, then by Paul's reasoning the holiness of believers' children falls short of this too. If the church at Corinth admitted their children to baptism and church membership but denied this to unbelieving spouses, then the two groups were in quite different circumstances. Thus, Paul's argument would be completely invalid. Since Paul's argument must be valid, we are forced to conclude that the church at Corinth did not admit their children to baptism or church membership.
It may be objected that this interpretation forces us to understand children to refer only to unconverted children if we are to maintain the parallel with the unbelieving spouse. We grant that the children considered must be outside the church to maintain the parallel. However, we need not read the word "children" as "unconverted children". The word for children here is tekna, which can equally well be translated "offspring". Paul is contemplating them in the natural state as they are born to believing parents, not as they may eventually come to be by the grace of God. Moreover, we should observe that the paedobaptist view is subject to the same objection, since the holiness of children in their view only applies to the offspring of believers as long as they are literally children and have not yet repudiated the covenant.
Having shown the weaknesses of the competing views and the strength of this view, I commend it to you as the true sense of this passage.
End Quote
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Once again putting words in my mouth. You are arguing against yourself not me. I said no such thing as you claim. Moreover you fail again to answer any of my questions.
The graciousness of God is based on His love and mercy for chosen sinners. The Scriptures are actually silent on the fate of those who die in infancy. Where the Scriptures are silent I do my best to be also. What we can infer from a very few passages is not something to build a firm doctrine on. There are some passages, such as the immpreccatory Psalms that would seem to indicate that yes the dying infants of believers are different. David’s statement concerning his dead son would also indicate that they are different. But no one really knows so we must leave it at that.
The article from the Canons of Dort simply seeks to comfort believing parents whose children die in infancy. Your use of it is illegitimate.
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Either we are born with the sin of Adam, or we are not.
Make up your mind.
Which is it?
You should read the correction to infant baptism provided above by the Reformed Baptist.
Why is it that you ignore what your fellow Calvinists say about infant baptism?
The following comes from the Canons of Dort.
"Conclusion
Rejection of False Accusations
And so this is the clear, simple, and straightforward explanation of the orthodox teaching on the five articles in dispute in the Netherlands, as well as the rejection of the errors by which the Dutch churches have for some time been disturbed. This explanation and rejection the Synod declares to be derived from God's Word and in agreement with the confessions of the Reformed churches. Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:
- that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold where Satan lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;
- that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Turkism*;
- that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the elect, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
- that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart."
Did God force Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit, or did Adam have free will to do so?
Do you deny that God has foreknowledge?
Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
When Paul talks about Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 is he talking about the salvation of the two individuals, or is he talking about the election of a nation?
Gen 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen_36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
As is usual with those who argue from weakness you ignore anything you can’t answer. Instead of actually responding to anything that I have said you throw out unrelated bs. I believe that I have answered every one of your questions. If I have missed any please point them out and I will answer. I will answer your lastest post later this evening when I have more time. Please do me the courtesy of actually answering my posts as well. Ignoring them as you have only makes your arguments weak.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
The biblical answer you probably will not like. The simple answer is yes we are born with the sin of Adam. The correct sanswer is that we are born not only with Adam’s fallen nature but with his guilt as well. Rom. 5:12-19 tells us of the headship of Adam and how we bear the guilt of his sin and the Headship of Christ Jesus and how we now bear his righteousness.
Romans 5:12-19 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Because they are wrong. But to lump all of us who call ourselves Calvinist is like lumping all stupid people together. There are several degrees of stupidity and there are all kinds of Calvinists who differ in various ways.
- Your point being? The quoted portion is giving what the common objections were not making a statement of what is to be believed.
Why would God have to force anyone to do anything? He is God. He owns all things, controls all things and in His infinite wisdom ordains all things. If that were not true He would not be God. He is Supreme, Sovereign and Glorious. None can stay His hand or say, “what are you doing.”
He doesn’t force anyone against their will He just controls everything that influences their will. We do exactly as we desire and exactly what He has ordained.
Libertarian free will is a myth. We are slaves to our nature and our will is the weakest part of us. That is why we must be brought from death unto life. That is what being born again, made a new creation in Christ means.
Adam did exactly as he desired and exactly as God ordained. If Adam hadn’t sinned there be no need for God’s wondrous mercy. But God, again in His infinite wisdom, that His glory would be known by His sovereign mercy in Christ.
Exodus 33:17-19 (KJV) 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
I challenge you to show me one instance in the Scriptures where the word foreknowledge is ever used in connection with things or happenings. The word is always used in connection with people never things or happenings.
Moreover foreknowledge and foresight are two completely different words both in the Greek and in the English. God does not look down through time to see what will happen or weather a person will believe. If that were true then He is reacting to what He sees and that destroys His immutability.
He ordained all things before the foundation of the world and purposed all things to glorify Him in Christ trough mercy to chosen sinners.
Do you know the difference between foreknowledge and foreordaination? God foreknows people He foreordains everyting else.
He is talking about the nations which are a type of the saved and the lost. What is the point of the question?
Now that I have answered all of your red herring bs can we get back to debating whether Calvin’s is biblical? Can you actually show, in your own words, how you believe it isn’t? If not then there is no more reason to debate. Calvinism is biblical.
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