Is "Calvinism" Biblical?

BABerean2

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No one here is doing that with Sinai either.


Sure you are not mixing us up with the Seventh Day Adventists?



Yes first written down and in covenant with Israel who were set apart. Is it your point these laws did not exist prior to Sinai?

Based on your responses above, you seem to know almost nothing about Reformed Covenant Theology.

Do you deny that Reformed Covenant Theology divides the Sinai Covenant into three separate parts (moral, civil, ceremonial) in order to hang onto the 10 commandments, which they call "the moral law"?


Do you deny that most Reformed pastors command their congregations to keep the 4th commandment?

Before the fall, was Adam commanded not to commit adultery?
Who would he have committed adultery with?
Was Adam commanded to honor his mother, even though he had no mother?
Was Adam commanded not to steal?

Do you deny that both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession claim "the moral law" in 10 commandments were given to Adam before the fall?


.
 
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redleghunter

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Based on your responses above, you seem to know almost nothing about Reformed Covenant Theology.
I know little of your understanding of Reformed theology

Do you deny that Reformed Covenant Theology divides the Sinai Covenant into three separate parts (moral, civil, ceremonial)
Makes sense as ceremonial is ceremonial, civil was civil and moral was moral. It takes some of the brain God Blessed gave us to figure this out.

I also believe where something is blue it is actually blue, red is actually red etc. I know this by observing the differences.

in order to hang onto the 10 commandments, which they call "the moral law"?
No Jesus and the apostles confirmed the moral Law. It’s in the NT want me to show it to you?

Do you deny that most Reformed pastors command their congregations to keep the 4th commandment?

I am unfamiliar with Reformed churches recognizing 7th day Sabbath.

Before the fall, was Adam commanded not to commit adultery?
Who would he have committed adultery with?
Did someone make such a claim? Show me.

I do believe the Scriptures reveal progressive revelation.

Was Adam commanded to honor his mother, even though he had no mother?
No Adam was do obey God.
Was Adam commanded not to steal?
Again not knowing where you are getting this.

Do you deny that both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession claim "the moral law" in 10 commandments were given to Adam before the fall?
Yeah I just looked at the WCF. It does not say this.
 
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BABerean2

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Yeah I just looked at the WCF. It does not say this.

Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God



I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

(emphasis by bold text is mine.)

from www.reformed.org/documents

.
 
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redleghunter

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Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God



I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

(emphasis by bold text is mine.)

from www.reformed.org/documents

.
Do you deny that both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession claim "the moral law" in 10 commandments were given to Adam before the fall?

Still not seeing Adam was given the 10 commandments prior to the Fall.

Perhaps focus on what command Adam was given and if it involved him obeying God and if that is was a covenant of works.

Then consider what condemns us before a Holy God.

Do you acknowledge the imputed sin of Adam in mankind?
 
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BABerean2

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Still not seeing Adam was given the 10 commandments prior to the Fall.


II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments...


.
 
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redleghunter

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II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments...


.
This is called progressive revelation.

Or did you think prior to Sinai no one sinned?
 
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BABerean2

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This is called progressive revelation.

Or did you think prior to Sinai no one sinned?


Do you think the 10 commandments were given to Adam before the fall?

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments...


.
 
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redleghunter

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Do you think the 10 commandments were given to Adam before the fall?
What we do know is (1) Adam was commanded he could eat of all trees except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(2) Adam disobeyed that command and thus he and Eve had knowledge of good and evil.

(3) We see (@JM already posted this) that all 10 commandments are mentioned in Scriptures prior to Sinai, thus these moral laws were in existence before written in stone during the Sinai covenant with God's chosen nation Israel.

And what do the Scriptures say?

Romans 2: NASB

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


For if there was no moral law before Sinai, and Israel only the set apart in covenant with God was later, then how would God judge mankind after the fall and before the Sinai covenant?

By progressive revelation we learn that at Sinai the very commands given to Moses were those in which God judges transgressions.


II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments...
And as I pointed out above, this quote is accurate as not everyone who was condemned after Adam transgressed in the manner of Adam.

Romans 5: NASB

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

I'm just scratching the surface with the Romans quotes. But you have to ask yourself why did God flood the Earth condemning all but Noah and his family? What basis did God use to declare those who perished wicked?
 
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BABerean2

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What we do know is (1) Adam was commanded he could eat of all trees except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(2) Adam disobeyed that command and thus he and Eve had knowledge of good and evil.

(3) We see (@JM already posted this) that all 10 commandments are mentioned in Scriptures prior to Sinai, thus these moral laws were in existence before written in stone during the Sinai covenant with God's chosen nation Israel.

And what do the Scriptures say?

Numbers (1), and (2) above reveal the error found in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I greatly appreciate you acknowledging this fact.

Number (3) changes the subject.
However, there is no evidence that Abraham was commanded to keep the 4th commandment.

If the scriptures say otherwise, please provide them.

Jacob had children with both of his wives and their servants.
If you had two wives, and had children with their servants, would it be considered adultery?


.
 
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redleghunter

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Numbers (1), and (2) above reveal the error found in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
What I wrote matches the truth revealed in Holy Scriptures and supported by apostolic teaching.

Here it is again:

What we do know is (1) Adam was commanded he could eat of all trees except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(2) Adam disobeyed that command and thus he and Eve had knowledge of good and evil.

I greatly appreciate you acknowledging this fact.
The facts are from Scriptures.

Number (3) changes the subject.
No it is completely relevant as in if you have no answer it completely destroys your line of thinking on the subject.

(3) We see (@JM already posted this) that all 10 commandments are mentioned in Scriptures prior to Sinai, thus these moral laws were in existence before written in stone during the Sinai covenant with God's chosen nation Israel.

And what do the Scriptures say?

Romans 2: NASB

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Which you dodged a VERY important point. A point in which shows the faulty nature of your inquiry and assumed conclusion. Here it is again, you have to answer this if we are going to have an intelligent discussion:

For if there was no moral law before Sinai, and Israel only the set apart in covenant with God was later, then how would God judge mankind after the fall and before the Sinai covenant?
However, there is no evidence that Abraham was commanded to keep the 4th commandment.

And there is no evidence Reformed Theology commands we keep the 7th Day as the Sabbath. Where do you come up with this?

Exodus 20: NASB
8“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9“Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
The above indeed was given to Israel as law in accordance with the covenant. What did Jesus say about the Sabbath?:

Mark 2: NASB
23And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” 27Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28“So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

God established a Sabbath in Genesis 2:3 for rest. He rested and He expected His Creation to rest one day a week. It makes sense, you can't run the people and cattle continuously and God rested and I'm sure Noah and Abraham had a rest day. It's practical and why Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. No there is no command or example of the Sabbath observed in Genesis. Yet all the moral laws are confirmed in Genesis as @JM indicated in several posts much earlier. Thus confirming what I posted of Romans 2:12-16

Jacob had children with both of his wives and their servants.
If you had two wives, and had children with their servants, would it be considered adultery?
The original design for the one man one woman marriage was established before the Fall in Genesis 2:24. Jacob and the culture surrounding him did not observe God's design. Yet God opened and closed the wombs of Jacob's wives according to His will and purpose. And Jacob did reap what he sowed as having sons from multiple wives proved to bring discord within his family and resulted in Joseph being sold into slavery and his sons bearing false witness telling Jacob that Joseph died.

Why don't Christians have multiple wives? Because when Jesus taught on Earth He always taught from the original design of God from the beginning as seen in Matthew 19 confirming Genesis 2:24
 
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BABerean2

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And there is no evidence Reformed Theology commands we keep the 7th Day as the Sabbath. Where do you come up with this?

From the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is found below.

Chapter XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of his Spirit,[9] according to his will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by his Word or providence, calls thereunto.[33]

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]

.
 
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redleghunter

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VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]
Don't you go to church on Sunday and worship with fellow believers?
 
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redleghunter

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@BABerean2 you have not answered this yet:

For if there was no moral law before Sinai, and Israel only the set apart in covenant with God was later, then how would God judge mankind after the fall and before the Sinai covenant?
 
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BABerean2

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Don't you go to church on Sunday and worship with fellow believers?

I teach Sunday-school for young adults on Sunday morning, and attend a Wednesday night Bible study.
Neither one is a "Sabbath", based on Colossians 2:16-17.


.
 
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redleghunter

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I teach Sunday-school for young adults on Sunday morning, and attend a Wednesday night Bible study.
Neither one is a "Sabbath", based on Colossians 2:16-17.


.
Your church does not have services where people gather and then share the Lord's Supper?
 
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BABerean2

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For if there was no moral law before Sinai, and Israel only the set apart in covenant with God was later, then how would God judge mankind after the fall and before the Sinai covenant?

I never said there was no law before Mount Sinai.
However, the term "the moral law" is not found in scripture.

That term has been invented to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

God commanded Abraham to circumcise his male offspring.
Was that a "moral law"?


God showed Sodom and Gomorrah what he thought about their wickedness, during the time of Abraham.

If the brothers of Joseph had murdered him, it would have been wicked.
Murder has always been wrong.

The 4th commandment was not given before Mount Sinai.
It is the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant, which is now "obsolete", based on the verse below.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


.
 
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I never said there was no law before Mount Sinai.
However, the term "the moral law" is not found in scripture.

That term has been invented to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

The term "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, are you not a Trinitarian? The term "free will" is found only in one instance and it is linked to an "offering". The most common related term is "choice", which no Christian I know of disagrees with. What is the law written on hearts if not a moral law? What does a law written on hearts by God entail if not morality? Seems there is a link to conscience in Scripture, those without reading or hearing about the law, knew the difference between right and wrong, their conscience bearing witness for the law written on their hearts.
 
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BABerean2

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The term "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, are you not a Trinitarian?

Does God exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Yes.
Should I be forced to confess the word "Trinity", or be viewed as a heretic? No.

How many people alive today have broken the 4th commandment, which is the "sign" of the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai Covenant (Hebrews 12:18)?
Is the 4th commandment a part of your "moral law"?


So far some of those here professing to be "Calvinists" are either ignorant of what is written in the Westminster Confession of faith, or willfully deny what is written in the text of the document.
If you are going to promote something, you may want to read what it says.

.
 
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redleghunter

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However, the term "the moral law" is not found in scripture.
Nor is Trinity and many other doctrinal and theological terms. I'm sure don't deny the Trinity.

That term has been invented to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.
Not invented but observed. Jesus and His apostles confirmed what is the moral Law in the NT.

God commanded Abraham to circumcise his male offspring.
Was that a "moral law"?
No but a covenantal rite.

God showed Sodom and Gomorrah what he thought about their wickedness, during the time of Abraham.
And on what basis were they judged? Why were they wicked?

If the brothers of Joseph had murdered him, it would have been wicked.
Murder has always been wrong.
They did not honor their father by selling his son to outsiders.

The 4th commandment was not given before Mount Sinai.
It is the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant, which is now "obsolete", based on the verse below.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
But God did rest on the 7th day after creation. No big deal as Christ is our Sabbath.
 
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