Is Calvinism a heresy?

[FireDragon76]

Tremont Baptist Church ended their Sunday evening services with that hymn back in 1975 when I attended it. I wonder if they still do.

It turns out, it's an English Baptist hymn in origin. But it must have been widely popular at one time.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It turns out, it's an English Baptist hymn in origin. But it must have been widely popular at one time.

Yes, there were a number of extremely popular hymns at various times. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was probably one of the most popular hymn during the Civil War. It, of course, borrowed the music from John Brown's Body Lies A-Molderin in the Grave.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, there were a number of extremely popular hymns at various times. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was probably one of the most popular hymn during the Civil War. It, of course, borrowed the music from John Brown's Body Lies A-Molderin in the Grave.

But is the hymn Calvinist?

It doesn't seem too heretical

 

[bbbbbbb]

But is the hymn Calvinist?

It doesn't seem too heretical

The Battle Hymn of the Republic probably does not seem to be at all heretical given the fact that we are now so familiarized with it, as with other hymns, that words no longer carry much, if any, meaning.

Here is the theological framework. Although it is not closely related to the Calvinism of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, it is firmly in the nineteenth-century mainstream of Reformed (e. g. Calvinist) theology.

However, if you define Calvinism as being monergism only, then there is no connection between this hymn and monergism and, moreover, this thread is misnamed. Calvinism encompasses far more than monergism. Read Calvin's Institutes and discover the breadth of his theology.

One of the lacunae in Calvinism is that of eschatology. There has never been a clearly defined eschatology within Calvinism, which is also true with many other branches of Christianity. In the nineteenth century, especially in the United States, that absence was filled by post-millenial theology, of which The Battle Hymn of the Republic is a shining example.

So, in answer to your question. The hymn is not at all monergist, but it is part and parcel of nineteenth-century American Calvinism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Battle Hymn of the Republic probably does not seem to be at all heretical given the fact that we are now so familiarized with it, as with other hymns, that words no longer carry much, if any, meaning.

Here is the theological framework. Although it is not closely related to the Calvinism of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, it is firmly in the nineteenth-century mainstream of Reformed (e. g. Calvinist) theology.

However, if you define Calvinism as being monergism only, then there is no connection between this hymn and monergism and, moreover, this thread is misnamed. Calvinism encompasses far more than monergism. Read Calvin's Institutes and discover the breadth of his theology.

One of the lacunae in Calvinism is that of eschatology. There has never been a clearly defined eschatology within Calvinism, which is also true with many other branches of Christianity. In the nineteenth century, especially in the United States, that absence was filled by post-millenial theology, of which The Battle Hymn of the Republic is a shining example.

So, in answer to your question. The hymn is not at all monergist, but it is part and parcel of nineteenth-century American Calvinism.

Interesting perspective on the Battle Hymn, but that is a song more for the USA than for Australia, here we don't sing it much - if ever.

But Blest be the ties that bind ... now that is a possible source of Calvinist naughtiness indeed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Interesting perspective on the Battle Hymn, but that is a song more for the USA than for Australia, here we don't sing it much - if ever.

But Blest be the ties that bind ... now that is a possible source of Calvinist naughtiness indeed.

Yes, the Battle Hymn is a unique relic of American history. I agree with you concerning Blest Be the Tie That Binds.

 

[JSRG]

The Battle Hymn of the Republic probably does not seem to be at all heretical given the fact that we are now so familiarized with it, as with other hymns, that words no longer carry much, if any, meaning.

Here is the theological framework. Although it is not closely related to the Calvinism of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, it is firmly in the nineteenth-century mainstream of Reformed (e. g. Calvinist) theology.

However, if you define Calvinism as being monergism only, then there is no connection between this hymn and monergism and, moreover, this thread is misnamed. Calvinism encompasses far more than monergism. Read Calvin's Institutes and discover the breadth of his theology.

One of the lacunae in Calvinism is that of eschatology. There has never been a clearly defined eschatology within Calvinism, which is also true with many other branches of Christianity. In the nineteenth century, especially in the United States, that absence was filled by post-millenial theology, of which The Battle Hymn of the Republic is a shining example.

So, in answer to your question. The hymn is not at all monergist, but it is part and parcel of nineteenth-century American Calvinism.

Perhaps I am missing something, but what exactly could be considered heretical in Battle Hymn of the Republic, at least by a Christian? Its lyrics seem fairly vague and not really favoring any particular ideology. Its apparent description of the Second Coming in the future seems like it would be considered wrong by a Full Preterist (Full Preterists claim the Second Coming has already happened, unlike Partial Preterists who, while believing most of the eschatological events have already happened, hold to the Second Coming still occurring sometime in the future), but they are as far as I can tell Full Preterists are a fairly fringe group.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Perhaps I am missing something, but what exactly could be considered heretical in Battle Hymn of the Republic, at least by a Christian? Its lyrics seem fairly vague and not really favoring any particular ideology. Its apparent description of the Second Coming in the future seems like it would be considered wrong by a Full Preterist (Full Preterists claim the Second Coming has already happened, unlike Partial Preterists who, while believing most of the eschatological events have already happened, hold to the Second Coming still occurring sometime in the future), but they are as far as I can tell Full Preterists are a fairly fringe group.

"My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord." is the first line of the hymn. That establishes the theological basis for the narrative which is worked out in the remainder of the hymn.

She wrote precisely what she believed. She believed that she had personally seen the second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth. That is the heart and core of nineteenth-century American post-millennial doctrine. IOW, Jesus Christ returned personally following the abolition of slavery in the United States of America and established his personal millennial rule on earth.

If you agree with that then most Christians would be quite amazed at you. This is not Preterism at all. It is Post-Millenialism as expressed in the United States in 1860.

 

[JSRG]

"My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord." is the first line of the hymn. That establishes the theological basis for the narrative which is worked out in the remainder of the hymn.

She wrote precisely what she believed. She believed that she had personally seen the second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth. That is the heart and core of nineteenth-century American post-millennial doctrine. IOW, Jesus Christ returned personally following the abolition of slavery in the United States of America and established his personal millennial rule on earth.

If you agree with that then most Christians would be quite amazed at you. This is not Preterism at all. It is Post-Millenialism as expressed in the United States in 1860.

Ah, I see. I read "my eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" as referring to the narrator saying they experienced a vision of what would happen in the future. The lyrics, by themselves, indicated to me it was talking about what would happen in the future Second Coming.

However, that seems to reinforce what I noted before, that the lyrics themselves are vague enough that they'd seem to run afoul of the beliefs of few if any Christians. Perhaps the intent of them was more specifically postmillennialism (and even more specifically, United States postmillennialism around 1860 as you put it), but the lyrics themselves do not require such an interpretation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, I see. I read "my eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" as referring to the narrator saying they experienced a vision of what would happen in the future. The lyrics, by themselves, indicated to me it was talking about what would happen in the future Second Coming.

However, that seems to reinforce what I noted before, that the lyrics themselves are vague enough that they'd seem to run afoul of the beliefs of few if any Christians. Perhaps the intent of them was more specifically postmillennialism (and even more specifically, United States postmillennialism around 1860 as you put it), but the lyrics themselves do not require such an interpretation.

That is the glorious thing about history and historians. The more distant the past the greater the temptation to engage in revisionist history.

The simple fact of the matter is that the American Civil War, as with the English Civil War, had as a major, if not primary, motivation an intense religious motivation, even as did the Crusades of the Middle Ages. Young, healthy, sane men of all eras were not suicidal and did not rush out voluntarily to get themselves maimed or killed. Without a religious motivation these wars would probably have fizzled out.

The Battle Hymn of the Republic was but one means of providing the religious rationale for murdering other equally sincere Christians. Although one might consider the words to be vague in today's cultural milieu, they were not then, nor were the abolitionist lectures and sermons at the time, all of which were intentionally framed to lead people to believe that the Christian millenium was imminent, after which Jesus Christ would return in glory to reward His people and welcome them to eternal bliss in heaven.

 

[The Liturgist]

Tremont Baptist Church ended their Sunday evening services with that hymn back in 1975 when I attended it. I wonder if they still do.

My childhood was spent attending Sunday morning services at our Presbyterian (PCUSA) church. We sat in reverential silence for each hymn, listening to the organist perform for us.

Unfortunately I am having a hard time finding Baptist churches which still have traditional music. So if you know of any I would be interested in it. Lots of Presbyterian churches have lovely liturgies, for example IPC Birmingham, which is a PCUSA parish that has exceptionally good music.

 

[The Liturgist]

Interesting perspective on the Battle Hymn, but that is a song more for the USA than for Australia, here we don't sing it much - if ever.

But Blest be the ties that bind ... now that is a possible source of Calvinist naughtiness indeed.

Indeed, I would be weirded out if you did, considering that it is part of the repertoire of most US military orchestras. It would be a bit like if the US Marine Corps band played Waltzing Matilda, which I’m sure they have on occasion, but the song is basically in the same category. Hence the name “Battle Hymn of the Republic.” I would liken it also to “Rule Brittania” and “Jerusalem” in British usage or the old Soviet march “Invincible and Legendary” by A. Alexandrov, who also composed the Soviet national anthem, which had to be a daunting task given how memorable God Save the Czar was, and given the penalties for failure under Stalin were widely regarded as unpleasant.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Unfortunately I am having a hard time finding Baptist churches which still have traditional music. So if you know of any I would be interested in it. Lots of Presbyterian churches have lovely liturgies, for example IPC Birmingham, which is a PCUSA parish that has exceptionally good music.

Actually, there is a great multitude of Baptist church which continue to use traditional music. One of the problems with Baptist churches is their understanding of "tradition". For many, "tradition" consists of what was popular in past decades. Thus, I have observed that there are many independent Baptist churches which are KJV only simply because they view the KJV in some sort of mythological position not unlike the original Ten Commandments. These folks also heavily prefer a musical repertoire of nineteenth-century revival-style music. Fanny Crosby, the amazingly prodigious hymn writer, retains her great popularity in these circles. The musical accompaniment is typically performed by a lady from the congregation at a piano and with a brisk, lively tempo. The vocal skills of the congregation frequently leave a lot to be desired, but this lack is made up by the enthusiasm of the singing.

In my area of Iowa, which is primarily Lutheran and Catholic, there are a surprising number of such churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, there is a great multitude of Baptist church which continue to use traditional music. One of the problems with Baptist churches is their understanding of "tradition". For many, "tradition" consists of what was popular in past decades. Thus, I have observed that there are many independent Baptist churches which are KJV only simply because they view the KJV in some sort of mythological position not unlike the original Ten Commandments. These folks also heavily prefer a musical repertoire of nineteenth-century revival-style music. Fanny Crosby, the amazingly prodigious hymn writer, retains her great popularity in these circles. The musical accompaniment is typically performed by a lady from the congregation at a piano and with a brisk, lively tempo. The vocal skills of the congregation frequently leave a lot to be desired, but this lack is made up by the enthusiasm of the singing.

In my area of Iowa, which is primarily Lutheran and Catholic, there are a surprising number of such churches.

What I am really looking for are Baptist churches that either use lining out or the old Southern Harmony hymnal, some of which I have found recordings of, or else whixh have choirs and organs of the sort one would expect to find in a mainline church such as a Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian or Catholic church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What I am really looking for are Baptist churches that either use lining out or the old Southern Harmony hymnal, some of which I have found recordings of, or else whixh have choirs and organs of the sort one would expect to find in a mainline church such as a Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian or Catholic church.

Those folks are, indeed, very few and far between today. The closest I would know might by the RPCNA which sings only Psalms and without instrumental accompaniment. Even that is not very close to lining out or using the shaped note hymnals. Are you familiar with the split hymnals with notes on the upper half of the page and words on the lower half such that the lyrics and the music are separate and can be mixed and matched at will. The key is the use of a single meter, usually Common Meter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the Soviet national anthem

I really like the tune, it is kind of stirring and hopeful, despite the terror that Stalin imposed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I really like the tune, it is kind of stirring and hopeful, despite the terror that Stalin imposed.

Speaking of tunes, most folks really like the ditty that F. J. Haydn cooked up for the Austrian emperor's birthday bash. See if you can recognize it.

austria hymn tune - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[FireDragon76]

I really like the tune, it is kind of stirring and hopeful, despite the terror that Stalin imposed.

Of course.

All the monstrous regimes of the 20th century tended to justify themselves by appeal to aesthetics.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course.

All the monstrous regimes of the 20th century tended to justify themselves by appeal to aesthetics.

Actually, it was hardly limited to the 20th century. Tyrannies have left an enormous legacy of grandiose remains. The Incas and the Aztecs, to cite just a couple, were no slouches.

 

[The Liturgist]

Speaking of tunes, most folks really like the ditty that F. J. Haydn cooked up for the Austrian emperor's birthday bash. See if you can recognize it.

austria hymn tune - Search Videos

www.bing.com

Indeed, the Kaiserhymne, which was modified for each successive emperor, is really beautiful. In a bizarre twist, Germany adopted it with the lyrics written by the liberals who tried to overthrow the regional governments in 1848, whereas Austria developed its own, as did East Germany, but neither of these national anthems were especially memorable. In contrast, the Kaiserhymne was wildly popular in the 19th century, and there are several interesting derivatives of it that many people are unaware of. For example, the Kaiserwaltz by Johann Strauss II.

Also, as another fun fact, the national anthem of Prussia, and later the “First Reich”, the German Empire formed in 1871 and replaced by the Weimar Republic after WWI, has the same melody as the British national anthem “God save the King,” and you hear that melody in some Prussian military music. And indeed, to this day Liechtenstein still uses that melody.

Now if i recall, all of these were composed in a reaction to the Dutch national anthem, which was the first modern national anthem as such, although it is not particularly good, in my opinion.

My favorite national anthems, that I can think of off hand, in no particular order, are those of the US, France, Germany and the Austrian Empire, UK and Liechtenstein, the Soviet Union and Russia since 2001, Czarist Russia and Russia from 1991-2001, Poland and Romania, especially the Polish lyrics (“March, march, Dobrowski, march from Italy to Poland!”). Belgium, Spain, Italy, Sweden (Du Gamla, Du Fria), and that of Canada, which if I recall is derived from a Mozart melody.

However I am sure there are others that I like and I am forgetting them. In particular, I can recall an anthem which is none of the above, but i can’t remember whose it is.