Is Calvinism a heresy?

[bbbbbbb]

England succumbed to deep anti-Catholic bigotry, in some ways it still is deeply bigoted against Catholicism.

This is quite true. It is not merely Catholics, but all Dissenters from the Established Church. My ancestor, a Puritan, was hounded out of England with other Puritans at the time of the Restoration.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is quite true. It is not merely Catholics, but all Dissenters from the Established Church. My ancestor, a Puritan, was hounded out of England with other Puritans at the time of the Restoration.

The dissenters became even more bigoted against Catholicism when they were settled in the USA; even today many in the more fundamentalist protestant groups in the USA and elsewhere are virulently anti-Catholic.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The dissenters became even more bigoted against Catholicism when they were settled in the USA; even today many in the more fundamentalist protestant groups in the USA and elsewhere are virulently anti-Catholic.

Are you aware of the history of Maryland or Rhode Island? Maryland was established as a Catholic colony and has a very lengthy history of Catholicism with the first Catholic Cathedral (still standing) erected in Baltimore. Rhode Island was the first colony to enact statutes guaranteeing freedom of religion, long before the American Revolution. From its very inception by Roger Williams, Rhode Island has welcomed all people regardless of religious belief or practice. It is the location of the first Jewish synagogue (Touro in Newport, also still standing) in America and has welcomed many Catholic immigrants, including a massive number of Portuguese immigrants.

Please do not read current extreme views not held by the vast majority of Americans into the history book.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Maryland was established as a Catholic colony

Yes, it was, and because they were open and received dissenters and Anglicans the Catholics were soon disenfranchised and persecuted.

 

[FireDragon76]

Calvin was not nearly the iconoclast as was Ulrich Zwingli.

The fact is that, for all the appropriation of Gothic architecture, not to mention the other historic styles, even the most extreme Ecclesiologists did not cross the line and introduce statuary in their churches. Thus, you will find innumerable High Victorian Gothic church buildings with empty Gothic niches and with two candles (not six) on the altar.

I've actually seen large northern Baptist churches with medieval style carvings, so it did happen to some extent. But mostly the aesthetics extended to things that were less obviously offensive to Protestants.

The prohibition on crosses sounds strange, though... I had never heard of that outside of some Baptists.

 

[FireDragon76]

The dissenters became even more bigoted against Catholicism when they were settled in the USA; even today many in the more fundamentalist protestant groups in the USA and elsewhere are virulently anti-Catholic.

I don't think that's entirely true. Those group's theology changed as they dealt with practical realities in America. The discussion we are having about changes in church architecture are a good example of that- it came alongside changes in theological emphasis and renewed interested in early Christianity.

I go to a church in a denomination that's descended from Puritans and German Reformed. There are alot of features, like a sanctuary lamp, paraments, vestments, an altar, etc., that you wouldn't have seen in an old New England Puritan church hundreds of years ago when they arrived. We actually share the church with an Independent Catholic group and we have had a joint service once.

Now days virulent anti-Catholicism among American Protestants is mostly restricted to fundamentalist groups. I don't think it's a common sentiment even among conservative Evangelicals in the US.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, it was, and because they were open and received dissenters and Anglicans the Catholics were soon disenfranchised and persecuted.

That is a curious twist of history. John Carroll of Carrollton, who was one of the most prominent proprietors of Maryland certainly was not disenfrancised and signed the Declaration of Independence. Catholics in Maryland continued to emigrate from Britain not because they wanted a pleasant cruise across the Atlantic, but in search of freedom from persecution, which is probably the premier reason other British subjects relocated to various British colonies, other than Australia, which has its own peculiar history as a penal colony. Catholics in Maryland succeeded as a well-known Catholic colony.

Although all English colonies were, technically, under the subjection of Great Britain and its established Church, there was immense latitude exercised, such that the Massachusetts Bay Colony remained Puritan and retains its legacy of Congregationalism. Maryland (named in honor of the BVM) was never subjected to the persecution that Catholics in Great Britain endured and, indeed, founded churches and erected the first Catholic Cathedral in North America.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That is a curious twist of history. John Carroll of Carrollton, who was one of the most prominent proprietors of Maryland certainly was not disenfrancised and signed the Declaration of Independence. Catholics in Maryland continued to emigrate from Britain not because they wanted a pleasant cruise across the Atlantic, but in search of freedom from persecution, which is probably the premier reason other British subjects relocated to various British colonies, other than Australia, which has its own peculiar history as a penal colony. Catholics in Maryland succeeded as a well-known Catholic colony.

Although all English colonies were, technically, under the subjection of Great Britain and its established Church, there was immense latitude exercised, such that the Massachusetts Bay Colony remained Puritan and retains its legacy of Congregationalism. Maryland (named in honor of the BVM) was never subjected to the persecution that Catholics in Great Britain endured and, indeed, founded churches and erected the first Catholic Cathedral in North America.

In 1689, Maryland Puritans, by now a substantial majority in the colony, revolted against the proprietary government, in part because of the apparent preferment of Catholics like Colonel Henry Darnall to official positions of power. Led by Colonel John Coode, an army of 700 Puritans defeated a proprietarial army led by Colonel Darnall.[36] Darnall later wrote: "Wee being in this condition and no hope left of quieting the people thus enraged, to prevent effusion of blood, capitulated and surrendered." The victorious Coode and his Puritans set up a new government that outlawed Catholicism, and Darnall was deprived of all his official roles.[36] Coode's government was, however, unpopular; and William III installed a Crown-appointed governor in 1692. This was Lionel Copley who governed Maryland until his death in 1694 and was replaced by Francis Nicholson.[37]

After this "Protestant Revolution" in Maryland, Darnall was forced, like many other Catholics, to maintain a secret chapel in his home in order to celebrate the Roman Catholic Mass. In 1704, an Act was passed "to prevent the growth of Popery in this Province", preventing Catholics from holding political office.[36]

Full religious toleration would not be restored in Maryland until the American Revolution, when Darnall's great-grandson Charles Carroll of Carrollton, arguably the wealthiest Catholic in Maryland, signed the American Declaration of Independence.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In 1689, Maryland Puritans, by now a substantial majority in the colony, revolted against the proprietary government, in part because of the apparent preferment of Catholics like Colonel Henry Darnall to official positions of power. Led by Colonel John Coode, an army of 700 Puritans defeated a proprietarial army led by Colonel Darnall.[36] Darnall later wrote: "Wee being in this condition and no hope left of quieting the people thus enraged, to prevent effusion of blood, capitulated and surrendered." The victorious Coode and his Puritans set up a new government that outlawed Catholicism, and Darnall was deprived of all his official roles.[36] Coode's government was, however, unpopular; and William III installed a Crown-appointed governor in 1692. This was Lionel Copley who governed Maryland until his death in 1694 and was replaced by Francis Nicholson.[37]

After this "Protestant Revolution" in Maryland, Darnall was forced, like many other Catholics, to maintain a secret chapel in his home in order to celebrate the Roman Catholic Mass. In 1704, an Act was passed "to prevent the growth of Popery in this Province", preventing Catholics from holding political office.[36]

Full religious toleration would not be restored in Maryland until the American Revolution, when Darnall's great-grandson Charles Carroll of Carrollton, arguably the wealthiest Catholic in Maryland, signed the American Declaration of Independence.

Although this is true, I would substitute Protestant for Puritan or, better, Established Church, because the Puritans in Maryland did not originate from the Massachusetts Bay Colony, but from England where, for a very brief period, the Puritan faction in the Established Church had regained control and had actively promoted emigration to the American colonies. Rhode Island, that isolated colony of radical dissenters, resisted this influx and maintained its policy of freedom of religion for all. Fortunately, Rhode Island was not viewed as having the economic advantages of other colonies and was generally ignored. Maryland, on the other hand, had prospered under Catholic oversight and thus had become a target for government intervention. Even the Massachusetts Bay Colony was a target. When the English governor attempted to construct his Anglican chapel, known as Kings Chapel (still standing) there were significant riots which were quelled and the chapel was constructed, but without the steeple that the governor intended to build as a symbol of English hegemony over this colony. Among many factors leading to the American Revolution was the effort of the Established Church of England to assert its authority.

Another curious colony was that of William Penn, the noted Quaker who later rejoined the Established Church of his childhood. Penn's colony, subsequently Pennsylvania, was first and foremost an economic enterprise and secondarily a haven for English Quakers, of whom there were insufficient number of populate the land. Penn cleverly, and wisely, threw open his doors to any and all religions and nationalities. The German dissenters took advantage of this opportunity and flocked to the new colony, with the lasting result of a legacy of German buildings and towns such as Germantown. German Mennonites, of which there is a wide spectrum with the Amish (probably the least interested in assimilation) at the conservative end of the that spectrum. Although technically Pennsylvania was a Quaker colony, the Quakers which had a lengthy history of persecution and, hence, had developed a radical tolerance for other persuasions, the colony was never a significant outpost for the Established Church despite the presence of Christ Church (still standing) with its loft steeple in Philadelphia demonstrating dominance. However, as you probably know, Catholics did not fare very well in Pennsylvania, which is more a reflection of English religious polity than Quaker or German interests.

 

[The Liturgist]

I've actually seen large northern Baptist churches with medieval style carvings, so it did happen to some extent. But mostly the aesthetics extended to things that were less obviously offensive to Protestants.

The prohibition on crosses sounds strange, though... I had never heard of that outside of some Baptists.

Interestingly, the whole dispute about whether to have six or two candles @bbbbbbb aludes to is kind of a non-issue, because even in the Roman Rite, low masses traditionally had only two candles lit. In addition, there would be a seventh candle lit if any presanctified hosts were in the tabernacle. This is interesting because in the Orthodox churches we see a minimum of two lights on the holy table, sometimes three, and as many as seven in the case of some Eastern Orthodox churches, where one finds a seven-branched oil lamp, which is also interesting in that Vespers in the Eastern rites consists of, among other things, seven lamp lighting prayers, except in Lent on those days when it is served as part of the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory, when there are only four lamplighting prayers; in addition the consecration of Holy Oil in the Coptic and Byzantine Rites consists of a set of seven sets of scripture lessons and prayers as seven oil lamps or wicks into a bowl containing, in either case, the oil to be consecrated, are lit.

However, another interesting fact is that the Coptic church uses paraffin candles on its altars, whereas the Eastern Orthodox use oil lamps, and only pure beeswax candles, but only outside the altar, away from the iconostasis, past which no animal products are allowed.

The lights on some altars in newer parishes of the Assyrian Church of the East are electric, interestingly enough.

In general, it can be said that all Christian denominations agree that at least two lights are required on the altar, but whether or not to use more, in the case of some churches such as the Anglicans, comes down to a question of aesthetics.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Interestingly, the whole dispute about whether to have six or two candles @bbbbbbb aludes to is kind of a non-issue, because even in the Roman Rite, low masses traditionally had only two candles lit. In addition, there would be a seventh candle lit if any presanctified hosts were in the tabernacle. This is interesting because in the Orthodox churches we see a minimum of two lights on the holy table, sometimes three, and as many as seven in the case of some Eastern Orthodox churches, where one finds a seven-branched oil lamp, which is also interesting in that Vespers in the Eastern rites consists of, among other things, seven lamp lighting prayers, except in Lent on those days when it is served as part of the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory, when there are only four lamplighting prayers; in addition the consecration of Holy Oil in the Coptic and Byzantine Rites consists of a set of seven sets of scripture lessons and prayers as seven oil lamps or wicks into a bowl containing, in either case, the oil to be consecrated, are lit.

However, another interesting fact is that the Coptic church uses paraffin candles on its altars, whereas the Eastern Orthodox use oil lamps, and only pure beeswax candles, but only outside the altar, away from the iconostasis, past which no animal products are allowed.

The lights on some altars in newer parishes of the Assyrian Church of the East are electric, interestingly enough.

In general, it can be said that all Christian denominations agree that at least two lights are required on the altar, but whether or not to use more, in the case of some churches such as the Anglicans, comes down to a question of aesthetics.

Thank you for the excellent information. As always, I learn new things from your posts.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for the excellent information. As always, I learn new things from your posts.

Thank you very much @bbbbbbb, that’s very kind of you to say! Do you find liturgics, or any of its subdisciplines including but not limited to hymnography and other traditional worship music, church architecture, vestments, paraments (for example, seasonal decorations for the church such as those used for Christmas, Lent, Easter and Pentecost, although I feel that the church should look beautiful every Sunday; I dislike “Ordinary time” as a liturgical concept along with plain green, or in the case of Eastern Orthodoxy, plain gold or gold-white vestments) interesting?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you very much @bbbbbbb, that’s very kind of you to say! Do you find liturgics, or any of its subdisciplines including but not limited to hymnography and other traditional worship music, church architecture, vestments, paraments (for example, seasonal decorations for the church such as those used for Christmas, Lent, Easter and Pentecost, although I feel that the church should look beautiful every Sunday; I dislike “Ordinary time” as a liturgical concept along with plain green, or in the case of Eastern Orthodoxy, plain gold or gold-white vestments) interesting?

I do find certain aspects, primarily related to architecture to be extremely interesting. Thank you for asking. I agree that the church ought to look beautiful every Sunday.

 

[The Liturgist]

I do find certain aspects, primarily related to architecture to be extremely interesting. Thank you for asking. I agree that the church ought to look beautiful every Sunday.

We are of one accord. I think my interest in ecclesiastical architecture when I was a boy contributed substantially to my growth as a Christian.

 

[FireDragon76]

Another thing that occured to me that might be a factor in the change of Protestant attitudes towards aesthetics, besides 19th century Romanticism, was the influence of German Protestant Unionism and Pietism, more broadly. Pietist Lutherans never had a prohibition on religious art in worship spaces, and they contributed a certain amount to American Evangelicalism more broadly, especially in the midwest. Also, the Prussian Union in the early 19th century blurred the distinctions between Lutherans and Reformed for many German immigrants who were coming to the US.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Another thing that occured to me that might be a factor in the change of Protestant attitudes towards aesthetics, besides 19th century Romanticism, was the influence of German Protestant Unionism and Pietism, more broadly. Pietist Lutherans never had a prohibition on religious art in worship spaces, and they contributed a certain amount to American Evangelicalism more broadly, especially in the midwest. Also, the Prussian Union in the early 19th century blurred the distinctions between Lutherans and Reformed for many German immigrants who were coming to the US.

That might explain the situation in the United States with German Lutheran and Reformed churches, but older German bodies in the United States such as the various Mennonite bodies and the German Brethren bodies were unaffected, as they still are to this day.

This leaves out those Protestant bodies with a British heritage, which constituted the large segment of immigration during the nineteenth century to the United States. These include Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Baptists, as well as other lesser-known groups. The Eccelesiogical movement in England set the tone for the Episcopalians. The Methodists, who styled themselves as Methodist Episcopal churches followed suit in due time. Other Methodists which were affected by the Restoration aspects of Protestantism, such as the Primitive Methodists, the Bible Methodists, and the Nazarenes remained exempt from the trend. The Presbyterians, having a strong Scottish base, took their cues from the various Presbyterian branches in Scotland. The work of Alexander (Greek) Thompson of Glasgow had a strong impact on many American Presbyterian church buildings. A curious offshoot from the Presbyterians, the Christian Church (subsequently Disciples of Christ, Churches of Christ, as well as Christian Churches) rejected paedobaptism and imbibed much of the Restoration movement such that their architectural output ranged all over the board. The Congregationalists, with much deeper roots in New England, were in a leadership position socially in American Protestantism and thus had the greatest stake in asserting their dominant position architecturally while giving scant lip service to their humble origins. The Baptists were all over the board, architecturally (as they still are today). The only apparent binding element among them was their credobaptist position.

 

[FireDragon76]

That might explain the situation in the United States with German Lutheran and Reformed churches, but older German bodies in the United States such as the various Mennonite bodies and the German Brethren bodies were unaffected, as they still are to this day.

Mennonites and Anabaptists had a very limited influence on American Evangelicalism. The communities tended to be insular and isolated, even if they weren't as rigid as the Amish. Alot of Mennonites also left the religious tradition and became Wesleyans of one kind or another during the Second Great Awakening. The German Brethren was one such movement, and were actually the first religious denomination established in the US.

I actually spent part of my childhood in one such church, and my ancestors were mostly German Brethren at one time. The church was actually United Methodist, but historically had been Evangelical Brethren, and there were many German-American families in the congregation. They had basically assimilated into Methodism and were largely mainline Protestant in their identity. When my family went overseas (my dad was in the military), we had a Presbyterian chaplain and the worship service and preaching hardly differed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mennonites and Anabaptists had a very limited influence on American Evangelicalism. The communities tended to be insular and isolated, even if they weren't as rigid as the Amish. Alot of Mennonites also left the religious tradition and became Wesleyans of one kind or another during the Second Great Awakening. The German Brethren was one such movement, and were actually the first religious denomination established in the US.

I actually spent part of my childhood in one such church, and my ancestors were mostly German Brethren at one time. The church was actually United Methodist, but historically had been Evangelical Brethren, and there were many German-American families in the congregation. They had basically assimilated into Methodism and were largely mainline Protestant in their identity. When my family went overseas (my dad was in the military), we had a Presbyterian chaplain and the worship service and preaching hardly differed.

I also share similar roots. My paternal side of the family were German Brethren who came in the eighteenth century and were assimilated by the late nineteenth century with various strands active in other denominations. My paternal grandparents attended a Methodist church for most of their lives.

 

[FireDragon76]

I also share similar roots. My paternal side of the family were German Brethren who came in the eighteenth century and were assimilated by the late nineteenth century with various strands active in other denominations. My paternal grandparents attended a Methodist church for most of their lives.

One thing about our services, I remember the closing hymn was almost always "Blest be the tide that binds". I wonder if that was common, or just my experience in a formerly Brethren church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

One thing about our services, I remember the closing hymn was almost always "Blest be the tide that binds". I wonder if that was common, or just my experience in a formerly Brethren church.

Tremont Baptist Church ended their Sunday evening services with that hymn back in 1975 when I attended it. I wonder if they still do.

My childhood was spent attending Sunday morning services at our Presbyterian (PCUSA) church. We sat in reverential silence for each hymn, listening to the organist perform for us.