Is Calvinism a heresy?

[jameslouise]

If there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved and if Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him then the vast majority of humanity will be eternally lost if, for no other reason than they never even heard the name of Jesus Christ.

If, on the other hand, these statements are not true then Christianity is vain and worthless.

If there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved and if Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him, Well said i completely agree.
Completely disagree that all who have never heard the Bible will be condemned. I completely agree God is absolutely good and perfect (and i think will get bigger and better the more we know) but I ask you bbbbbbb what do you yourself think about the fairness of a 1 day old baby who dies just after birth who according to you is literally doomed.
Please do not answer I will trust God or its down to God which we both agree on, I am asking you is it fair? there is a point to my points

You assume that WE get to choose who may enter heaven and why - as if our opinions were binding upon God. The BIBLE was written to instruct US how WE might know Jesus and gain eternal life ... what God does with those that lack access to a BIBLE is God's business and, unless God tells us, then it is presumably none of our business.

What God has told us is: "ALL OF HIS WAYS are right" so whatever God does it will be ... wait for it ... the RIGHT thing! Absolutely I have not said anything different to this.

what God does with those that lack access to a BIBLE is God's business and, unless God tells us, then it is presumably none of our business. This is the question I get asked often when trying to spread the Gospel, so it is my business to a certain extent.
You assume that WE get to choose who may enter heaven and why, Wit respect that is an unjustifiable extrapolation of what I said. We choose to be chosen. WE choose to accept Christ, we can play a role under guidance from The Holy spirit to help others achieve the same.

 

[atpollard]

With respect that is an unjustifiable extrapolation of what I said. We choose to be chosen. WE choose to accept Christ, we can play a role under guidance from The Holy spirit to help others achieve the same.

"With respect, that is an unjustifiable extrapolation of what I said."
Were your questions in Post 93 intended to be answered (implying that our human opinions are somehow binding on God's ultimate, but unrevealed, decision) or were they rhetorical (implying that YOUR answer was somehow binding where God had chosen to remain silent)?

"We choose to be chosen."
Did Abram choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Abram.)
Did Moses choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Moses.)
Did Saul/Paul choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Saul.)

"WE choose to accept Christ, we can play a role under guidance from The Holy spirit to help others achieve the same."
What possible role can you play in someone that never hears of Jesus? [You gave a baby that dies at 1 day old as an example.]

 

[bbbbbbb]

'The Greek word there is en, which is both "in" and "by." they both mean completely different things, i'll stick with the KJV
'All creation would disintegrate if Jesus did not sustain it.'Maybe, Yeh, Christ behind ZPE. But i do not think the Acts verse is about that.
Acts 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being i think it is clear, it talks about an existence, a life that moves and lives, we move and live and exist on planet earth. And after salvation could be considers to do the same in Jesus and The Holy Spirit and them in us that's for sure, i agree, but the Acts verse describes a time before such salvation is available. How?
There is a point to my points that ultimately refutes Calvinism and TULIP doctrine More below

Ah yes, another step down the slippery path of universal salvation. If, as you aver, "With all of this in mind the 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son' . The those 'he did foreknow' has a plain and simple meaning He did foreknow absolutely everybody" then everybody will be conformed to the image of His Son, will they not?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved and if Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him, Well said i completely agree.
Completely disagree that all who have never heard the Bible will be condemned. I completely agree God is absolutely good and perfect (and i think will get bigger and better the more we know) but I ask you bbbbbbb what do you yourself think about the fairness of a 1 day old baby who dies just after birth who according to you is literally doomed.
Please do not answer I will trust God or its down to God which we both agree on, I am asking you is it fair? there is a point to my points

what God does with those that lack access to a BIBLE is God's business and, unless God tells us, then it is presumably none of our business. This is the question I get asked often when trying to spread the Gospel, so it is my business to a certain extent.
You assume that WE get to choose who may enter heaven and why, Wit respect that is an unjustifiable extrapolation of what I said. We choose to be chosen. WE choose to accept Christ, we can play a role under guidance from The Holy spirit to help others achieve the same.

The God revealed in the Bible is hardly "fair" by human standards. He eliminated all of mankind except for seven folks He decided to spare in the Flood. Is that really fair?

 

[jameslouise]

"With respect, that is an unjustifiable extrapolation of what I said."
Were your questions in Post 93 intended to be answered (implying that our human opinions are somehow binding on God's ultimate, but unrevealed, decision) or were they rhetorical (implying that YOUR answer was somehow binding where God had chosen to remain silent)?

Neither, and i do not quite follow the implications you drew? The questions are for you to answer from your understanding of scripture or Holy Spirit led insight of your own? Here they are.Does The Holy Spirit present Christ to people who have not heard the Gospel. If not then are they all condemned?( Them and all children/babies/unborn unable who die before being able to understand the Gospel?)

"We choose to be chosen."
Did Abram choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Abram.) Don't know under a different covenant then
Did Moses choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Moses.) Don't know under a different covenant then
Did Saul/Paul choose to be chosen? (No, God chose Saul.) yes when he decided to receive Christ (not on the road to Damascus, i believe at a different time). this receiving was not some kind of Jedi mind trick of God, it was of his own freewill. The processes being led by The Holy Spirit. Paul chose

"WE choose to accept Christ, we can play a role under guidance from The Holy spirit to help others achieve the same."
What possible role can you play in someone that never hears of Jesus? [You gave a baby that dies at 1 day old as an example.] Easy, by praying for them

 

[JLB777]

The Catholic Church does not consider Calvinism, a theology developed by John Calvin in the 16th century, to be heretical. However, it does disagree with certain aspects of Calvinist theology, particularly the belief in double predestination, the doctrine that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation. The Catholic Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all humanity, and that every person has the free will to accept or reject God's grace.

The Catholic Church also disagree with the beliefs of the "Limited atonement" which is the belief that Jesus died only for the elect. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus died for all humanity, and that his sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for the salvation of all people.

In summary, while the Catholic Church does not consider Calvinism to be heretical, it disagrees with certain aspects of Calvinist theology, particularly the belief in double predestination and limited atonement.

Calvinism is the teachings of man, and are false.

Christians follow the doctrine of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

Catholics follow the doctrine of the Vatican.





JLB

 

[jameslouise]

Ah yes, another step down the slippery path of universal salvation. If, as you aver, "With all of this in mind the 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son' . The those 'he did foreknow' has a plain and simple meaning He did foreknow absolutely everybody" then everybody will be conformed to the image of His Son, will they not?

I am not a universalist,. I am a more-people-get-to-heaven-than-you-thinkist. We have a different idea of the logic here of. foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son'There are provisos to this statement. T & Cs, man must except Christ. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, God did not give power just to those he predestinated but those who received Christ, this being a subset of those he predestined. Predestined meaning God has done his part now over to you. The obvious flaw in ur stance is God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so why doesnt He predestine everyone? He's missing a trick there. surley?

Did we pre-exist our arrival on Earth, if we did foreknew has an obvious meaning. This is the heart of this matter, I note you have not refuted the scripture I quoted to confirm of this pre-earthly existence 13 quotes in message #100. what is your stance on these?

 

[jameslouise]

The God revealed in the Bible is hardly "fair" by human standards. He eliminated all of mankind except for seven folks He decided to spare in the Flood. Is that really fair?

God is absolutely good, absolutely fair and absolutely just-the earth at that time was unimaginably wicked, cannibalism was rife and the spiritual openly manifesting with the physical and even the human genome was genetically corrupt. Only 8 people in the whole world were considered righteous. Good judgment as far as I can tell.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not a universalist,. I am a more-people-get-to-heaven-than-you-thinkist. We have a different idea of the logic here of. foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son'There are provisos to this statement. T & Cs, man must except Christ. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, God did not give power just to those he predestinated but those who received Christ, this being a subset of those he predestined. Predestined meaning God has done his part now over to you. The obvious flaw in ur stance is God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so why doesnt He predestine everyone? He's missing a trick there. surley?

Did we pre-exist our arrival on Earth, if we did foreknew has an obvious meaning. This is the heart of this matter, I note you have not refuted the scripture I quoted to confirm of this pre-earthly existence 13 quotes in message #100. what is your stance on these?

I have two quick questions for you, as follow:

1. Has God foreknown everybody?
2. Has God predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His son?

Pre-existence of human beings prior to birth is a Mormon dogma which is rejected by orthodox Christianity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God is absolutely good, absolutely fair and absolutely just-the earth at that time was unimaginably wicked, cannibalism was rife and the spiritual openly manifesting with the physical and even the human genome was genetically corrupt. Only 8 people in the whole world were considered righteous. Good judgment as far as I can tell.

How righteous was Noah who, after the Flood, got himself completely drunk on the wine he made and committed an exceedingly immoral act?

Are people on earth today more righteous than the people of Noah's day?

 

[jameslouise]

[B]DialecticSkeptic[/B]
God is definitely not "fair" by the standards of fallen, sinful man—but those are the standards of fallen, sinful man.

Yeh i agree when we are talking about the details and scope of judgement. But when on the extreme end men know right from wrong. I know murder is wrong , I know to ignore God is wrong, I know to give false witness and lie is wrong and I know that to condemn someone to Hell for not accepting Jesus when they have never heard of him or encountered The Holy Spirit drawing them, is also wrong and I do not think God would do that. More to come from me on this soon.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yeh i agree when we are talking about the details and scope of judgement. But when on the extreme end men know right from wrong. I know murder is wrong , I know to ignore God is wrong, I know to give false witness and lie is wrong and I know that to condemn someone to Hell for not accepting Jesus when they have never heard of him or encountered The Holy Spirit drawing them, is also wrong and I do not think God would do that. More to come from me on this soon.

What other names than of Jesus Christ are there by which men can be saved? (cf. Acts 4:12)

How many other ways are there to God other than through Jesus Christ? (cf. John 14:6)

 

[jameslouise]

I have two quick questions for you, as follow:

1. Has God foreknown everybody? Yes
2. Has God predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His son? Yes, but remember it is to be conformed....-it still needs doing, Romans does not say God predestined everybody will be conformed... There is a difference. There are provisos (from elsewhere in the Bible) that need to be fulfilled and these are dependent on man's freewill. Man must repent, accept and receive Jesus Himself , I do not think God would interfere with this in some kind of 'jedi mind game' (other than The Holy spirit prompting of course) ( but he does know prophetically if you will or will noT do this btw.). How can God pre-destine free will choice? Not really free will if he does? I do not think automatons are what God is after.

Pre-existence of human beings prior to birth is a Mormon dogma which is rejected by orthodox Christianity. I know nothing about Mormonism, but I have shown you 13 verses in scripture that are consistent with my position about that man's 'base spirit' pre-exists his birth and scripture is about as orthodox as you can get? the scripture is plain and obvious in meaning and i await your refutation of my interpretation of it. Can you tell me when man's spirit was created from scripture?

 

[jameslouise]

What other names than of Jesus Christ are there by which men can be saved? (cf. Acts 4:12) none

How many other ways are there to God other than through Jesus Christ? (cf. John 14:6) none, what have these questions got to do with our discussion?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Dont men choose to open the door? Rev 3 :20? Where does that fit in your timeline? Before beig called, Between called and chosen? Or after chosen?

I'd say at least 6,000 years after being chosen. But the question is not when it happens, but HOW it happens. One does not, nor can they, choose God until their hearts and wills have been raised from death to life. Romans 8, Ephesians 2

But the reference in Rev 3:20 sounds to me more like fellowship than initial point of salvation. Just sayin'...

 

[jameslouise]

I'd say at least 6,000 years after being chosen. But the question is not when it happens, but HOW it happens. One does not, nor can they, choose God until their hearts and wills have been raised from death to life. Romans 8, Ephesians 2

But the reference in Rev 3:20 sounds to me more like fellowship than initial point of salvation. Just sayin'...

yeh maybe, but does man choose this?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The reply prompt does not seem to be functioning. I will paste in the previous post for my response.

I have two quick questions for you, as follow:

1. Has God foreknown everybody? Yes
2. Has God predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His son? Yes, but remember it is to be conformed....-it still needs doing, Romans does not say God predestined everybody will be conformed... There is a difference. There are provisos (from elsewhere in the Bible) that need to be fulfilled and these are dependent on man's freewill. Man must repent, accept and receive Jesus Himself , I do not think God would interfere with this in some kind of 'jedi mind game' (other than The Holy spirit prompting of course) ( but he does know prophetically if you will or will noT do this btw.). How can God pre-destine free will choice? Not really free will if he does? I do not think automatons are what God is after.

Pre-existence of human beings prior to birth is a Mormon dogma which is rejected by orthodox Christianity. I know nothing about Mormonism, but I have shown you 13 verses in scripture that are consistent with my position about that man's 'base spirit' pre-exists his birth and scripture is about as orthodox as you can get? the scripture is plain and obvious in meaning and i await your refutation of my interpretation of it. Can you tell me when man's spirit was created from scripture?

Thank you for answering my answers directly. Apparently (correct me if I am mistaken) although you agree that God has predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His son you do not believe that God is able and willing to accomplish that which He predestined. Therefore, predestination becomes watered down to sweet intentions and kind thoughts.

I find the aspect of pre-existence as biblically defensible as reincarnation. The Mormon Church has developed its dogma of pre-existence not primarily from the Bible but from the inspiration of Mr. Smith and his successors even as the RCC has refined its four Marian dogmas not primarily from scripture, but from Tradition expressed through the ex-cathedra statements of its Popes since 1870. The fact is that orthodox Christianity does not accept the concepts of pre-existence or reincarnation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What other names than of Jesus Christ are there by which men can be saved? (cf. Acts 4:12) none

How many other ways are there to God other than through Jesus Christ? (cf. John 14:6) none, what have these questions got to do with our discussion?

Once more, the reply prompt failed to insert your post for me.

You clearly implied in your prior statement, "I am a more-people-get-to-heaven-than-you-thinkist." that there are going to be many more people in heaven than merely those who had the privilege of hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do any of these folks get to heaven without Jesus Christ? How many of these people in heaven will be shocked to find themselves there, having never even heard the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

yeh maybe, but does man choose this?

Yes. In fact, man chooses salvation too, but not causally.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I know that to condemn someone to hell for not accepting Jesus, when they have never heard of him or encountered the Holy Spirit drawing them, is also wrong.

I'm assuming that it's wrong because it is unjust (insofar as injustice is wrong), and I'll assume for the sake of argument that you're right, that it's unjust to condemn someone for not accepting Jesus when they have never heard of him. And I will assume all that in order to ask you the following question:

• Who said that's the reason they are condemned to hell?

The fact that they didn't believe in Jesus Christ is the reason they remained condemned, but it was for their manifold sin that they were condemned. If they never heard the commandment to repent and believe, then maybe they were not condemned for that. But there was no shortage of sin by which they stood condemned before God.

More to come from me on this soon.

I look forward to it.