Is being Wiccan moral?

[Volos]

Originally posted by :Whitehorse

You've got to be kidding. You're placing the created world above the Creator. We're talking about God and man here, not temporal beings versus temporal beings.

And here you are once again making that same false accusation and once again misrepresenting Pagan religions.



No one has made any claims about the temporality of either the Divine or humans. Where do you get this idea?

This subject has been talked about before yet you contiue to misrepresent the Pagan worldview on this point.

Perhaps my responses were not to your liking.

I always appreciate honest responses. Misrepresenting a religion is not honest however.

These statements are the epitome of what I'v ebeen getting at; why wicca doesn't hold water. It elevates man above God, the creation above man, everything is backwards. You're saying CHristinity elevates man which is completely inaccurate; this isn't true, any of it. And that's why wicca cannot be true. If something has to be twisted or redirected in order to seem effective, then it is no longer true, and is therefore false.

Once again you are making the false claim hat Wicca Paganism and similar religions elevate humans above the Divine. You are the only one here who has made this claim it has been responded to and rejected not only by me but pretty much every other Pagan posting here yet you continue to repeat it knowing that it is false.



Your willingness to misrepresent Paganism in defense of Christianity can be reflected in your own words: “If something has to be twisted or redirected in order to seem effective, then it is no longer true, and is therefore false.”

And here is the continual focus on man, that man is the source of the religion. And this is why it so clearly cannot be the truth.

Yes religion, all religion, is the creation of humans. Religion is not however spirituality and you are confusing the two.

Human beings are not the source of the spirit. Religion only serves as a means to express a spiritual idea but it is not the spirit and should net be confused with the spirit.

But you have already said it is manmade. So it cannot be from God. You condemn me for focusing on God-this is the beginning, middle, and end of why wicca cannot be true.

I have issues with you for being disingenuous I have not condemned you for anything much less your religious beliefs.

Wicca is no more or no less true than Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion. All are true in that they form a means to express spirituality and to connect with the Divine but they are also limited because they are human constructions. Being limited does not make them false.

But of course if the intention is to believe what one wants to believe, then this is what a person will do. You can list thousands of people who believe what you do, but it does not testify that it is true. In fact, it testifies the opposite of what you intend it to.

And you can list thousands of people who believe what you do but that does not testify that it is true either.

Beliefs are not truth. Truth alone is truth.

nore does beleiving something is true make it so.

 

[Godschild]

Wiccans/pagans believe that all paths in the end lead to the same place, correct??? (I just want this question answered first, and then, based on the answer(s) I get, I will respond accordingly)

 

[Havoc]

Most Pagans believe that all paths lead to the Divine. Please note carefully the bolded part. It is important.

 

[Godschild]

Most Pagans believe that all paths lead to the Divine. Please note carefully the bolded part. It is important.

Okay, I notice the bold part, but now I'm confused as to what that means. Do you mean that all paths, be it wiccan, pagan, christian, buddhist, athiest, etc lead to God???

 

[Havoc]

Okay, I notice the bold part, but now I'm confused as to what that means. Do you mean that all paths, be it wiccan, pagan, christian, buddhist, athiest, etc lead to God???

It means that each of us is on a journey. That journey will eventually lead to the Divine as the soul learns and becomes wise. The pathway make take several lifetimes and may lead to mistakes and successes, both of which are learning experiences. It may lead through several different religions and faiths, or even a lack of the same. Eventually we will all wind up at the same place, that is to be with the Divine, although it may take some longer than others.

 

[Godschild]

Okay then. Havoc. I find it hard to believe that Hitler(and others like him--think of some really evil dead people) is with the "Divine", or in my case, God. And I don't see atheists being with the "Divine" because atheists apparently don't believe in such a "being". So then, let me ask you this: In your faith, where do those that don't believe in *your* God/Goddess end up at the end of their "journey"? Where would I go, since I don't believe in your aspect of your God/Goddess?

 

[Godschild]

Sorry, double post.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Most Pagans believe that all paths lead to the Divine. Please note carefully the bolded part. It is important.

But, what if the two paths are a logical contradiction to each other? Then which one is right?

 

[johnhusswannabe]

I don't know very much about wiccans. I know that they are not witches, but they do try to attain power outside of God. This is immoral. David in Psalms says many times that the Lord is his rock and strength. God is wants us to seek Him daily for His will and to seek His strength to avoid temptation.

 

[Blissman]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as magic or spells. IMHO, a spell works only if you choose to believe it. My view of magic or spells is that they are entertainments, illusions. I don't believe that there is such a thing as contacting the dead, predicting the future, or that little green men walk out of flying saucers. Wicca is philosphy; do good, do no harm. I wish that everyone lived by that 'rede', the world would be a better world.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

What about the deities?

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Okay, I notice the bold part, but now I'm confused as to what that means. Do you mean that all paths, be it wiccan, pagan, christian, buddhist, athiest, etc lead to God???

The Divine (yes read : God for Christians because that's the name and the face you give the Divine) is reached by us all, in due time. Hitler - addressing your other post - has probably got a very long road of Karmic justice ahead of him before he reaches the Divine (a very long road no doubt) but he will get there. Bad people are people too. Immoral people are people too. We are all what we are and what we came here to be.

Whitehorse, what about the deities? The aspects and facets that are considered the individual gods and goddesses? They are filtered versions of the Divine, scaled down a bit so that we can comprehend them. Your God is considered to be one of these gods by many pagans and wiccans.

But, what if the two paths are a logical contradiction to each other? Then which one is right?

There's more that one way to do something (skin a cat it goes, but I don't like the idea of skinning cats being compared to reaching the Divine ). Yes, the paths are very different, they diverge at key points, but in the end they circle back around to the same place. You can take the highway or you can take the backroads, or you can forsake your vehicle and walk, but in the end you will still end up where you were trying to get to one way or the other. Some roads take longer, some have nasty pitfalls along the way to be avoided, but in the end, you get there.

Where do you go if you believe in Christianity after you die: the Wiccan/Pagan opinion? -- where you are supposed to. Wiccans and Pagans don't over speculate about what happens after death. It is unknowable. You can believe that something happens. We believe in re-incarnation, and we have our reasons to do so, and the summer land, which fits with our concept of both Deity and re-incarnation. But do we know what happens when you die? No. And neither does anyone else. I've already been clinically dead for some minutes. I still can't tell you what happens after we die (and I was 'saved' at that point in my life, being still a child and baptised properly by both the Catholic and Methodist churches). We trust completely in Deity to guide our souls and our lives to where they should be after death.

 

[Lillithspeak]

I understand that this is what you believe.

But if you think about it, it isn't right for man to try to be god. Whether or not you can accept this, certainly you can accept the next part: it is completely distasteful for man to want to submit to the will of another, even if that "Another" is God Himself. Therefore, since the scriptures give all the glory to God and take away the glory we think (however erroneously) that we have, the Bible can't be inspired and written by man! It simply wouldn't be in his perceived self-interest to do so. It would take away his belief that he is sovereign. Your own choice of wicca over Christianity testifies that this is so. S-o-o-o-o, you'll need a more concrete argument than that. But it was a good try.

Really? So, it wasn't in the interest of various leaders, religionists, political parties, etc., to find a way to control the mass of humanity? I beg to differ. When the monarchy wanted to find a way to increase its income, they came up with marriage, which would help in raising taxes and allow ownership of property to be controlled much easier than before. Hence, marriage began in the 14th century. Before that, men had families all over as they were always on the move for the King. It was quite common for a man to have several families scattered around the various countries.

It was very much in the interest of ruling parties to control what the peasants did and did not do, hence the different versions of the bible, including various chapters where it suited them and leaving them out when it didn't. For instance, the Catholics didn't like the idea of reincarnation, so that didn't make it into their bible at all. However, it exists in other versions. The bible was, and is, an incredible tool of manipulation by the ones who are powerful and those who want to be. Entire wars were fought because one version or another was to be the defining version. So, yes, it has always been in the interest of men to want to deny other men various rights and privileges and the bible was the perfect tool.

In more recent times you can see how the Catholic Church was pitted against the Protestants in Ireland. The Catholics were more than happy to participate in selling out their countrymen for favor with England. Again using the power of the church to control men.

You could condemn any behavior that you wanted to, if it suited your aims, and write verses to make it legitimate. Hence slavery is okay, murder of others is okay (as long as you dress it up and justify it) having many wives is okay, sleeping with your wife's sister is okay, homosexuality is not okay (doesn't bring in more peasants=more tax money)drunkeness is not okay (hard to work those fields and pay that tax if you're a drunk)You name a rule in Christianity and you'll find somewhere in the bible where it's either contradicted or has exceptions, all of which will always benefit the ruler of the day.

 

[Lillithspeak]

Wiccans/pagans believe that all paths in the end lead to the same place, correct??? (I just want this question answered first, and then, based on the answer(s) I get, I will respond accordingly)

Not just Wiccans and Pagans, many others believe that there is only one place to go, back from whence you came. How else would it all make sense? It's Christianity that makes no sense. That some God would create you, evidently so flawed that the only way to get back to it would be to deny your own spirituality and endlessly praise it for creating you. Sounds like severe narcissim doesn't it? And, furthermore, if you don't endless praise it for it's own massively flawed creation, then there is a verrrry special place for you bucko, flames, melting skin, massive painful torments, an eternity in exquisite hell, an eternity mind you, not just a day or a week, but for all of time. Now it sounds sociopathic.

 

[Blissman]

I find this interesting. Thank you. You had said that some Wiccans and some pagans consider the Christian (concept of) God as being one of the Divine. Allow me to ask, do you consider God (the Christian concept of God) as a 'deity'? We might dispute 'deity', depending on what you meant my deity. I don't know how you view Judism. It certainly, with the exeption of some divisions (such as, perhaps, some Messianic Jews), rejects the concept of diety. In Judism, false gods and idols are strictly a violation of God's commandments. Judism believes that someday there will be a Messiah and Jesus Chirst was a man. Praying to Jesus is praying to a false god. A cross is a graven image. Jews who believe that a Messiah had come (some do not believe that His name was Jesus Christ) are at odds with other Jews who do not believe that there had been a Messiah (Jesus or anyone else). (Making Messianic Jews as not Jewish - (then too there are divisions withing Jewdism which 'tolorate' Messianic Jews)).

I agree with some of your beliefs. I am a Unitarian Universalist whom is a Christian. Unitarism is essentially a congration. Anyone who believes in one God can be a Unitarian. We choose to pray togeather as a congration of faiths. Everyone whom is seeking to find the truth is doing the same thing - seeking. No matter how much we try, ultimately God is not knowable by man. We all try, as we should, to attempt to learn The Truth (God is the Truth), and hopefully we will find it. People who seek should be friends and respect one another. Every human being is born with dignity.
This requires that people follow the rules and laws of God - how He is to be respected (to each according to their own faith), and it also requires that man also follow laws, rules, morals - proper conduct - on treating our fellow man. I am a Christian, and I am a Unitarian. My 'take', if you will, is filtered by Christianity. I will never consider you evil as long as you are following a path to the truth. I believe that you will find the answer in Christianity, and I hope for you that you will follow your path and learn the answer to be found in Christ. But I am unable to understand something - it is my inability to comprehend. Harm no one and try to do what is good for others is a good way to live.
I fail to understand that it is a faith (it would be a philsophy). The reason that it does not seem to be a faith is because there are no absolutes. How can no harm be judged as being in fact no harm if everyone is free to intrepret what is and what is not harm?
How can anyone say not without an agreed upon no (a set of morals)? In theory, anything could be not a harm, (depending on whom you ask).
No offense, but I don't believe that there really is such a thing as witchcraft or magic(k). To me it would seem - silly - . If you believe in it, it is self delusion.
Aside from my opinion on witchcraft and magick, why in your faith do you need it? Don't things happen without majick? Without 'wictchcraft'? What is the difference between magick and hope? Why aren't both majick and witchcraft social meetings?

I also would like to thank you for challanging my many beliefs in Christainity. It is a good thing to examine your faith, because it helps you better understand it.

Bless you
~Blissman

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : Godschild

Okay then. Havoc. I find it hard to believe that Hitler(and others like him--think of some really evil dead people) is with the "Divine", or in my case, God. And I don't see atheists being with the "Divine" because atheists apparently don't believe in such a "being". So then, let me ask you this: In your faith, where do those that don't believe in *your* God/Goddess end up at the end of their "journey"? Where would I go, since I don't believe in your aspect of your God/Goddess?

Let my put my own thoughts on “all paths lead to the Divine”

Religion, all religions, are a human construction designed to express a spiritual desire or need. There is no correct religion. There is no wrong religion.

I do not believe that the path is over multiple lifetimes I believe that it is here and now. Your religion fulfills your spiritual needs. My path fulfills my spiritual needs. Yet the two paths are markedly different. Traveling your path would be a horrible thing for me and vice versa. On the other hand the goals of our paths are basically identical. Atheists too are on a spiritual path (though I am sure they would deny being so) and their path fulfills their needs. There is no right or wrong path to the Divine just as there is no right and wrong way to travel to Kansas City.



Where else would dead people be if not with the Divine?



Pagans believe that everything, both physical and spiritual, is part of the Divine. The Divine is all that is all that ever was and all the will be. There is no way to be separate from the Divine.



Pagans do not believe (or even really understand) the concept of sin. It is, to us, an impossibility. There are no divinely written authoritarian moral rules to follow or to break and, more importantly, there is no way that one can live apart from the divine. The corollary of this is there is no after death judgment, no eternal reward or punishment.





As for your question as to where would you (or non-Pagans) end up:

I believe we end in the same place despite the differences in our paths. After all our goals are basically the same. We both seek a personal relationship with the Divine.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

You had said that some Wiccans and some pagans consider the Christian (concept of) God as being one of the Divine.

one of the Divine is not the wording I used. A facet or aspect of the Divine yes. One of the Divine's faces as it were. The Divine does not 'separate' into many gods and goddesses, the Divine simply truns to show a certian face or another. Like a spheric prism or something poetic like that

I fail to understand that it is a faith (it would be a philsophy). The reason that it does not seem to be a faith is because there are no absolutes. How can no harm be judged as being in fact no harm if everyone is free to intrepret what is and what is not harm?
How can anyone say not without an agreed upon no (a set of morals)? In theory, anything could be not a harm

Again, while you would seem to be correct in this, you are mis-interpreting. I have thought long and hard over this and how to explain it here's my go at it: There are absolutes, but they are not needed or they are hidden. Example: you say that it depends on who you talk to what 'do no harm means' well that's just not true -> see, if you are hurt by some action of mine I have done you harm. It's not the person making the action's interpretation that counts, it the people around me that percieve my actions and are affected by my actions. If they become hurt as a result of something I do, I have caused harm. Done. It's an absolute that is built in, and even though we don't 'talk' about it, it's there just the same.

Aside from my opinion on witchcraft and magick, why in your faith do you need it? Don't things happen without majick? Without 'wictchcraft'? What is the difference between magick and hope? Why aren't both majick and witchcraft social meetings?

Well, your feelings aside as you say, we don't need it in our faith. We use it because it is there, as a gift of the Divine, to use. But we rarely need anything in this society badly enough to break out magic (at least I don't). I use it for minor charms to protect my loved ones when they are out of the house, to keep negative energy away from my dwelling, bless things, cleanse, again- most of 'magic' is simply energy manipulation. As for the difference between magic and hope, again it's an energy thing, you are working with energy to make it so, but if you are only hoping then you are only wanting something to happen, not being proactive to 'make' it happen. Magic should always be accompanied by actions in the 'mundane' sense as well. If you work a spell to find a job and don't read the want ads, you're sabotaging yourself, obviously Magick as we spell it generally (I've been spelling it sans 'k' for simplicity's sake) can be a social meeting, if you happen to be part of a coven- as are the eight sabbats if you are in a coven. Most wiccans and pagans are solitary or in covens, but I'm a solitary, as are most of the people I know who are pagan. We get together and talk over concepts, places to procure items for our altars, and what have you, but as for our worship and private time with the gods, it's just that. We are jealous of our private time with them I suppose, and don't want to share Silly of us, but some people do make magick and the sabbats gatherings as well.

(I'm hoping to get that sort of thing going in my area myself actually, but it's going to take a few years of work I think )

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : Blissman

I don't believe that there is such a thing as magic or spells. IMHO, a spell works only if you choose to believe it.

If one does not believe that magic works why would one be working with magic in the first place?

My view of magic or spells is that they are entertainments, illusions. I don't believe that there is such a thing as contacting the dead, predicting the future, or that little green men walk out of flying saucers. Wicca is philosphy; do good, do no harm. I wish that everyone lived by that 'rede', the world would be a better world.

Wicca is both philosophy and religion and spirtuality.

Does magic work?: Definitely. Though not always as expected.

Speak to the dead?: But only if they wish to speak to you and only if they don’t have better things to do.

Little green men?: I doubt it.

The future?: The future is not written in stone the best anyone can do is make educated guesses about where things are headed.

I find this interesting. Thank you. You had said that some Wiccans and some pagans consider the Christian (concept of) God as being one of the Divine. Allow me to ask, do you consider God (the Christian concept of God) as a 'deity'?

Yes. Jehovah or whatever name you may associate with yoru God is a Dieity just like Diana, Thor, Isis, Hera, White Buffalo Woman and countless others.

All are masks or personas of the ultimate Divien.

I agree with some of your beliefs. I am a Unitarian Universalist whom is a Christian. Unitarism is essentially a congration. Anyone who believes in one God can be a Unitarian. We choose to pray togeather as a congration of faiths. Everyone whom is seeking to find the truth is doing the same thing - seeking. No matter how much we try, ultimately God is not knowable by man. We all try, as we should, to attempt to learn The Truth (God is the Truth), and hopefully we will find it. People who seek should be friends and respect one another. Every human being is born with dignity.

I know quite a few Pagans who are Unitarians.

I fail to understand that it is a faith (it would be a philsophy). The reason that it does not seem to be a faith is because there are no absolutes. How can no harm be judged as being in fact no harm if everyone is free to intrepret what is and what is not harm?

How can anyone say not without an agreed upon no (a set of morals)? In theory, anything could be not a harm, (depending on whom you ask).

There is a common paradox: The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.



First please realize that the Wiccan Rede (if it harms none, do as thou will) is not a law. A rede is literally a piece of good advise. And like all advice on is free to take or leave it.



Because it is not a “law” is escapes the problem all moral laws have, the fact that moral laws are impossible to follow consistently. Take any religiously based moral law or rule. (do not kill, do not lie, and so on) and ask is it possible to follow this “law” at all times? in all situations? by all people? in all cultures? in any period of time? No law can hold up for all people, in all situations, in all cultures, at all times. It is impossible. Moral dilemmas take place not in a vacuum but in unique circumstances. It is all well and good to say “killing is morally wrong” but there are times when it is NOT morally wrong but morally right to kill another person.



In the instance of the Rede, there is similarly no way to live and NOT harm something. The very act of breathing kills millions of microbes. To eat something has to die. No one can follow the rede anymore than one can follow the moral laws laid out in the bible. But the Rede is not a law, it is advice and therefore all we are really asked to do is to think before we act, to look at the consequences of our actions and try to act in the best possible way. We know we can never be perfect in this but still we try.

No offense, but I don't believe that there really is such a thing as witchcraft or magic(k). To me it would seem - silly - . If you believe in it, it is self delusion.

Sorry you feel that way. I think believing in sin is silly

Aside from my opinion on witchcraft and magick, why in your faith do you need it? Don't things happen without majick? Without 'wictchcraft'? What is the difference between magick and hope? Why aren't both majick and witchcraft social meetings?

Many Wiccan’s do not practice magic. It is not essential to the religion or the faith of the individual at all.

 

[Godschild]

I think that whatever people wanna believe is their choice. It's not a contest, it's about having faith. Period. Whether it's the oldest or not is insignificant. The importance is that it should be respected just as much as any other religion. I think that those who get into it for rebellion or because of the lifestyle are really sad people. It's about faith, not a label.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

yes, I should clear up that one can't live without 'harming' some things. We eat, we breath, we grow, but it's all the 'un nessasary' harm and so on that I was discussing