Is being Wiccan moral?

[PistGurl]

Christian. That would be under the New Covenant. Where is it written? Again, you're saying what man has told you. What about God? Read the New Testament.

Does this mean that God himself wrote the Bible? It is to my knowledge that man wrote the Bible, even if you wish to believe it was derived from the word of God...therefor you are also soley depending on the word of man

 

[PistGurl]

I believe being Wiccan is fione, as I have to agree with it, otherwise I wouldn't be a very good Wiccan!

To only compare Wicca with Christianity is quite wrong, as these are not the only religions...but since everybody else seems to only be doing this, so will I, but on no account am I deciding which is better, I am simply answering the question-do you believe being Wiccan is ok, if so why?

In Cristianity, you should visit a man made building to worship a God who gave you the world, in Wicca, you show thanks for the world by being in the world, and actually showing that you love it.

In Wicca, at least I, believe in reincarnation...this means that death is not an end to life, but another part of it...Christians believe that death is the be all and end all of life. Even though Jesus himself was reincarnated.

In Cristianity, magic/k is wrong, although it is a part of life, and Wiccans accept this...maybe if we called it 'doing miracles' instead you might accept it?!

In Wicca, we accept all religions, and the use of all mankinds free will...and although Christians say God gave us free will, you can't actually use it, because if you do anything through another religion, or choose to do something with your life that doesn't involve the church, you are condemned.

Say someone gave you a gift...you'd be thankfull right? Especially if it was out of perfect and unconditional love yes? But then that person says, but I want that gift back in a few years, because it's mine, and you better have looked after it and not done anything with it that ruins it in any way!! That's what God has done with the world. I believe that if a gift has been given, it should not be taken back, this world has been given to us, and of course we should take care of it, to not would be in stupidity, but we should not have to give it back to the previous owner!

Anyway, that is my opinion...blessed be and merry part xxx

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Does this mean that God himself wrote the Bible? It is to my knowledge that man wrote the Bible, even if you wish to believe it was derived from the word of God...therefor you are also soley depending on the word of man

I understand that this is what you believe.

But if you think about it, it isn't right for man to try to be god. Whether or not you can accept this, certainly you can accept the next part: it is completely distasteful for man to want to submit to the will of another, even if that "Another" is God Himself. Therefore, since the scriptures give all the glory to God and take away the glory we think (however erroneously) that we have, the Bible can't be inspired and written by man! It simply wouldn't be in his perceived self-interest to do so. It would take away his belief that he is sovereign. Your own choice of wicca over Christianity testifies that this is so. S-o-o-o-o, you'll need a more concrete argument than that. But it was a good try.

 

[Havoc]

Do you have something to verify what you are saying? By what authority do you make this statement?

By God's authority. If you,like I could write it down and then it would be God's Word in written form.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

On what basis are you making the determination? And no, I can't write down God's word because the canon is closed and has been for oh...a really long time.

 

[Havoc]

I'm not making the determination, God is. And Goddess agrees.

I suspect you're right that you couldn't write down what God says, seeing as your opinion of what God says and God's opinion of what God says don't correspond. You'll forgive me if I take God's Word for what he says rathre than your's and your Bible.

The canon closed by the decision of a committee. God says he wasn't consulted. Actually God really shakes his head at the Bible as a whole.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Blessings to you.

 

[trimetal]

I believe being Wiccan is fione, as I have to agree with it, otherwise I wouldn't be a very good Wiccan!

To only compare Wicca with Christianity is quite wrong, as these are not the only religions...but since everybody else seems to only be doing this, so will I, but on no account am I deciding which is better, I am simply answering the question-do you believe being Wiccan is ok, if so why?

In Cristianity, you should visit a man made building to worship a God who gave you the world, in Wicca, you show thanks for the world by being in the world, and actually showing that you love it.

In Wicca, at least I, believe in reincarnation...this means that death is not an end to life, but another part of it...Christians believe that death is the be all and end all of life. Even though Jesus himself was reincarnated.

In Cristianity, magic/k is wrong, although it is a part of life, and Wiccans accept this...maybe if we called it 'doing miracles' instead you might accept it?!

In Wicca, we accept all religions, and the use of all mankinds free will...and although Christians say God gave us free will, you can't actually use it, because if you do anything through another religion, or choose to do something with your life that doesn't involve the church, you are condemned.

Say someone gave you a gift...you'd be thankfull right? Especially if it was out of perfect and unconditional love yes? But then that person says, but I want that gift back in a few years, because it's mine, and you better have looked after it and not done anything with it that ruins it in any way!! That's what God has done with the world. I believe that if a gift has been given, it should not be taken back, this world has been given to us, and of course we should take care of it, to not would be in stupidity, but we should not have to give it back to the previous owner!

Anyway, that is my opinion...blessed be and merry part xxx

Actually You wrong In Christianity death is a gateway to eternal life. So we don't believe that death is the end all be all.
And God wasn't reincarnated he was resurrected. He dead and was brought back to life. And we can use free will. Hell is God's tribute to Man's right to chose. Man decides to leave outside of God's will,which is like saying God i wanna do things my way I don't need you. So when you die God grants your wish. He leaves you alone. Unfortunately people don't understand that God is the source of all positive things, laughter,joy,etc.

 

[PistGurl]

Hell is God's tribute to Man's right to chose. Man decides to leave outside of God's will,which is like saying God i wanna do things my way I don't need you. So when you die God grants your wish. He leaves you alone.

To me this seems both unfair and unjust, I have not turned to God, said I don't need him, and turned away...how could I, when I don't believe in him?

Being Wiccan is not a choice to me, but a path laid before me that I must walk to get anywhere in life.

If I had given life to billions on billions of beings, I would not send them to hell if they believed in something else, I would respect their wishes, after all, to me, I have no doubt in my mind that God doesn't exist, therfore it would be wrong to say at judgement day
'You chose to turn away from me and now I leave you to burn for all eternity for it'
If I had something call out to me as the Goddess has, I may reconsider my belief system, but nothing does.

Unfortunately people don't understand that God is the source of all positive things, laughter,joy,etc.

It is not fair to simply state that everyone else's religion is false, and they do not understand. There is as much proof that any other religion is the 'correct one' as Christianity, there are as many records dating back centuries for any other religion as there is Christianity, except no other religious group says that they are definately right and everyone else will never be forgiven for being in the wrong one!!!

I cannot understand that God is the source of all positive things, because I do not believe this, I believe the great Goddess gave us the makings of positive and negative things, and watched us use them as we saw fit, although we may not always put positivity first, she allows us to use our own feelings and thoughts and not have us say 'it is not my love but hers, not my home but hers, not my life but hers'.

I cannot say to you, I am right, you are wrong, because I respect that you believe you have heard the call of God, and I believe I have heard the call of the Goddess, who is right? Both of us. We are using our integrity and thoughts to feel and believe and fight for what we believe to be true. Just and true in our own minds and hearts.

Do not tell me I will go to Hell for what I believe to be true, for I would not do that to you.

 

[trimetal]

i'm not saying that your going to hell that's not my decision. all i was doing was clearing up the misconceptions about the christian faith. The words your going to hell never came out of my mouth and the idea that i thought you were going to hell was never was never implied. i'm just stating what our true beliefs are.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

[/color]Humans are the authors of all religions, including yours. Religion is simply a means to express a spiritual need or desire.

You mentioned that humans are the authors of all religions. If this is the case, then you have acknowledged that your religion is not true. Because if it came from humans, then it dod not come from God. And if it did not come from God, then how is man capable of determining this information?

However, Christianity is not manmade, ergo the constant focus on God, not man. If it were manmade, what would man make it for? As you say, to express a spiritual need or desire. So the focus is on man's wants, and not submitting his will to another.

If Christianity were manmade, then how could Christians submit to will that is not their own? How can you make up a religion of wanting things that are completely contradictory what you want? It is a logical impossibility.

Authoritarianism is rejected because it is inherently flawed not because of the desire to elevate the self.

If you wish to define authoritarianism and expound upon why you think it is flawed, I'd be pleased to discuss it with you. It sounds like a good debate topic as well.

I do not believe at all that it is a more pleasing philosophy, if anything it is quite terrifying to embrace the idea that I personally am responsible for my actions, that there is no big daddy up in the sky that will pat me on the head and say it is all right if I manage to screw up.

The concept of making up our own rules and having no accountability for them is frightening to you? And moreso that personal accountability and eternal consequences? Hmmm.

By rejecting authoritarian rules I am saying that I need to be a moral agent in EVERY action and decision I make, I am taking responsibility for my every action and my every inactions and let me tell you that is a difficult position to be in.

But is it really, truly taking accountability to say there is no such thing as sin, and that man makes the rules according to his own thoughts?

What I find really fascinating is how Christians rally to the defense or modernism and attack post modernism. Yet five hundred years ago when modernism was emerging it was the Christian who most vigorously attacked it

Actually, I don't know of any true Christians who believe in modernism at all. We don't believe we can arrive at the truth by reason, although if we have the truth, we most certainly can reason with it, because it is the truth. In other words, truth leads to reason, not reason to truth. Because if the reason is even slightly flawed, it is not true and therefore cannot lead to truth. But the truth triumphs over all, simply because it is the truth. And therefore one can reason effectively with truth, simply because it is true.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.

Well, I'd say all truth leads to freedom, but I certainly agree with you that people do not wish to hear it, usually. This is true.

Am I or any other Pagan posting here not being clear? There is no possible way to avoid the consequences of our actions or our choices. Repercussions happen no matter what we do, I can no more avoid the repercussions of my ethical choices than I can avoid the earth’s gravity.

It's the motive. It's the concept of morality, but I may have addressed that in another post before getting a chance to respond to this one. (The boomerang illustration.)

How does the belief that the reason to act in a morally good way is because that is the right thing to do work with the concept of after death reward and punishment? If one makes moral decisions based on the hopes of an after death reward or in fear of an after death punishment than can you say that person is acting in anything but a self-serving way?

Well, certainly Heaven does sweeten the deal, although our primary goal is God's glory and to partake in His incredible purposes. This is very, very sweet. It is satisfying. Although God's glory and purposes come first, it isn't wrong to want good things for ourselves. There's nothing immoral about that at all. It's how we receive those things that is the issue. God really is good. He wants us to enjoy life. And if we are faithful to seek His glory, He gives us far more of what we want than if we sought it for ourselves, and I've also discovered that He is far more in tune with what we want then we are. He's very generous. And of course, we only receive these gifts in their proper contexts and balances. Christianity is not gnosticism by any stretch of the imagination.

As it is written:

1*Timothy 4

4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4:2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

4:3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4:4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

4:5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Note: "creature" being the word Hebrew word ktisma, meaning thing founded, or created thing.

But it isn't self-serving because he isn't seeking himself or his desires forst. As it is written:

Luke 12



12:15And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

12:16And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

12:17And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

12:18And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

12:19And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

12:20But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy F31 soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

12:21So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

12:22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.

12:23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

12:24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

12:25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

12:26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

12:27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

12:28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

12:29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither F32 be ye of doubtful mind.

12:30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

12:31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

I believe the answer to this is free will.

But what about the divine aid, though? Either the god/ess would help him, or not. And why is he seeking divine help and becoming powerful through these supernatural means?

Your religion suffers with the same problem.

How so?

There are those Christians who use their religion to promote evil and act in evil ways. I can site a recent example where a 16 year old girl was murdered by a 40 year old men because she refused to have sex with by saying she was a lesbian. The consensus of more than a dozen posters here was that the man in question did no wrong because the girl was a homosexual and therefore deserving of death. If this and similar atrocities carried out in your God’s name are truly wrong why does your God allow them to happen? By your argument either your God is not moral enough to care or your God is not sovereign enough to do anything about it.

Anyone can claim to do something in someone's name, but what is the sixth commandment? This has nothing to do with hristianity whatsoever. But in the case of paganism, there is no such thing as sin. And people are evoking these deities for their power, without there being this moral component. (Getting hit on the head with the boomerang is not a moral component.)

The answer to this dilemma for Christian philosophers has been to invoke free will. It works well for them and by the same token free will works for Pagans too.

Invoke free will? Christians do not invoke anything. Only God, at His sayso.

I understand that Catholics and eastern orthodox use rosaries as a focus for prayer and meditation. They certainly do not need them yet they still use them.

Catholocism isn't Christianity. We love the people, but we have a lot of problems with their doctrines.

I recently talked about the Pagan conception of time, in hat it is non-linear in nature. You are trying to apply your linear concept of time to eternity which is impossible. This world/universe began yes but we cannot say that this is the only time it has begun or that its end is in anyway permanent.

Pagans do not view physical/spiritual as a dichotomy. The two are not separate.

But then why would anyone worship the earth? It is clearly not spirit, nor does it have a mind or spirit. If it did, even digging a place to put a foundation would be harm to the earth. Cutting down a tree would be harm. Killing an ant would be harm. And that situation with the Nazi you had mentioned could not take place either, because you would never be able to act in self-defense. If you did, you would be doing harm.

Rebirth always follows death. No part of the Divine dies, transformed, renewed but not die.

But trees, plants, and animals doe all the time. So if that which is created were really part of the creator, this would not be the case. The only way to reconcile the two is to either say that the temporal is not spirit, and therefore it dioes, or else the deity is not completely eternal.

Morality does come from humans. And as I have noted morality IS flawed, there are no universal moral codes, claws that apply to all situations, all persons, all cultures at all times.

How can morality come from that which is immoral? How can morality come from a philosophy that does not acknowledge sin?

We are back to the basic differences between our religions. I cannot and do not believe we are objects separate form the Divine.

Then this divine must be hopelessly multipersonality, because there is so much disagreement on what is moral.

Sin is nonexistent not “lessened.” It makes no sense whatsoever in the pagan religions.

Then how can it be moral?

Would you do this?

However imperfect I am, I endeavor in all things to submit my will to God. So, no.

If the reason you would not is an external force what does that say about your personal ethics?

It would say that my personal ethics were submitted to the will of a holy and perfect God. My morality would come from my joyful acceptance of my place in the universe as a creation, not the Creator.

Recently I read about Pat Robertson leading his congregation in prayer that the more liberal justices of the United States Supreme Court would either become physically ill or die so that they can be replaced with conservative judges. Was Robertson not invoking his God to further his own wishes and desires?

Before commenting, I'd have to see exactly what he said, to whom, and under what circumstances.

The Divine is the Divine. I am not Divine and neither are you nor are is other human Divine. I have never met anyone who claims otherwise. Why do you insist on ascribing this notion to Pagans?

Because Lillith clearly said she is god. And you have said that humans are a part of the divine. And the philosophy as debated shows this to be a belief that pagans truly do hold.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Pistgurl, I don't think Trimetal was trying to determine God's decree for your personal destiny, but was telling what God has revealed about the fate of those who permanently reject God's conditions for salvation. And trimetal is correct on his or her assessment. What you choose according to God's sovereign decree is between you and the Lord.

 

[Blissman]

Judgement is not half the story, since God doesn't find it necessary to judge us. Salvation is not the other half, since none of us need to be saved.

You are right about God not turning anyone away though. God and Goddess accept anyone, regardless of what name we choose to call them by.

Question: If "God and Goddess accept anyone, regardless of what name we choose to call them by", then why do you need a God and Godess? Isn't it man who accepts (all)? If man does accept all, then isn't it arbitrary if man accepts a/the God and Godess, and all of Wicca? Where is Wicca a religion and not a personal whim? If there is no absolute measure whereby man can be tested or judged, wouldn't that make Wicca a philosphy and not a faith?

If 'harm none' is a personal choice, in Wicca it is only introspective.

Most religions hold to a 'Golden Rule', however there is an agreed up set of standards for what is/is not 'harm'. Obviously laws establish this, but there are many choices in life where there are no laws, but there are moral paths.

In an earlier post someone (forgive me, I don't remember the exact post) that do unto others (and it's Wiccan equiv) is the one universal morality that was true. No so. If you chose to do evil towards yourself, you might choose to do evil to others. (You might choose to kill someone if you were a suicidal bomber).

If Wicca does not establish absolutes of wrong, what would prevent a sucidal bomber from not considering it wrong to commit murder/suicide? If all things concerning morals are self-determined, wouldn't a suicidal bomber determine that murder/suicide was proper? I am not saying that Wicca or Wiccans are suicidal bombers, rather this is a philisophical point. If there are no external restraints on one's self actions, how can there be (by Wiccan faith, that is), any restraints? Can this lead to a self-destructive society? How could there be laws if there are no agreed upon standards? If Wicca were a theocracy, how long would it last?

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by :

Whitehorse

But if you think about it, it isn't right for man to try to be god.

it is the Christian religion that places man above nature (making man a supernatural being) not Paganism.



This subject has been talked about before yet you contiue to misrepresent the Pagan worldview on this point.

Whether or not you can accept this, certainly you can accept the next part: it is completely distasteful for man to want to submit to the will of another, even if that "Another" is God Himself. Therefore, since the scriptures give all the glory to God and take away the glory we think (however erroneously) that we have, the Bible can't be inspired and written by man! It simply wouldn't be in his perceived self-interest to do so. It would take away his belief that he is sovereign. Your own choice of wicca over Christianity testifies that this is so. S-o-o-o-o, you'll need a more concrete argument than that. But it was a good try.

you bible certaily spends a great deal of time and effort to glorify man.

Chrisatns believe in special creation indicating that man is diffenret and special, a concept Pagan’s reject. Christins believe that man is the only living thing with a soul which glorifies man. Christins believe that they have a connection to the Divine which all others lack (glorifying the self). Christinas believe that only their religion (and usually one their specific sect/cult) is capable of having a “correct” realtionship with the Divine. Beleiveing that man can decide to live apart from the Divine and have it be somehow so is yet another example of how Christianity glorifies humanity.



Pagans on the other hand do not beelive in special creation,human beings are no better and no worse than any other living thing. Every perosn and every living thing has the same connection to the Divine, the Divine does not play favorites based on soemthing as nonsenical as a human made religon.



No Pagan ever need defend his or her religon because excluivness is not part of our reliigon. The correct religion is the one the person is on and since all religions are human made constructs designed to fulfill a spiritual need ther eis no one correct religion, all are correct for those that follow them.

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by :

Whitehorse

By phrasing it as “harm none” Pagans are not limited to acting only in the best interest of persons they “love” Harm none applies equally to one’s enemies, to strangers, to yourself, to the community you live in, to your nation, to animals, to plants, to the planet.

I understand. I just still see a big difference between not harming, and proactively loving. The center of gravity is different.

Yes makes it a requirement that people think about their actions instead of blindly following the words men wrote in a book thousands of years ago. Further it shifts the “center of gravity” away from the individual and forces one to look beyond his or her own self.

In and of ourselves, you're right. We can't love everyone on our own. But with God's Spirit, it is possible to do so. And it is a very sweet thing, too.

But the thing to understand is that love is not an emotion in the Christian faith, although it can often follow the action.

Christianity is a disturbing religion on many levels.

It's really hard to hate someone you're praying for. But love is an action. So, someone can be rude for a long period of time, and I may not feel any particular inclination toward that person, but God still calls me to put those negative feelings aside, to try to understand how they could be that way, or why, and do good for that person.

love is an emotion not an action. True love is reflected not in actions but in being.

Well, being that our relationship with God is not through any merit of our own, but by God's sovereig decree, yes. Because He is the only God and He has laid out these rules.

All Gods are one God and all Goddess are one Goddess. Your God is no different than Diana, or Thor or Pan or Isis.

So for me to say that people of any religion could do this would seem more accepting of man on the surface, but in reality it would be very harmful to say this and very unaccepting, because it would undo the souls of my fellow creatures. Man never had the authority to seek God on his terms. True humility is to bow before God and know my place. God is the authority on God. I'm just the creature.

You have repeatedly stated that Paganism is a religion which glorifies the self yet here we have an example of Christianity being used to glorify the self. Only by following YOUR interoperation of YOUR religion do people actually have a relationship with the Divine.

Do I believe I am special or above anyone else?

Decidedly not.

Yet your posts say otherwise.



You stated you just KNOW that the Deities I worship are not deities, they are malevolent spirits. You also just KNOW that your God could ever be one of these same malevolent spirits.



You continually say that YOU have a relationship with the Divine that others who do not share your religion and beliefs cannot possibly have.

See, this is the natural implication of placing God on the throne and gettin man off of it: it is possible to have this relationship with the divine not because I am anything special. The Lord knows after 30+ years of studying scripture that I have a very keen sense of my own failures! What is special, is the Lord. He loves me anyway.

Once again you are misrepresenting the Pagan worldview and glorifying yourself.



Pagan’s by benefit of their world view do not and cannot view themselves as “special” rather we are forever general.

Please understand, this is why a religion based upon man can never reach the divine. In and of myself, there is no way I could possibly love some of the people God has called me to love. Because I am flawed-my natural inclination isn't to love people I don't enjoy being around.

Religion has nothing to do with reaching the Divine. All religions are human made things designed to fulfill a spiritual need.



Why would the an infinite, all powerful, all knowing, all loving being care in the least what religion a human being belonged to?

But God is the kind who would go to the cross to save people who presently hated Him. He's the kind who took the ultimate beating on His back for things He never did. And why? Because He simply wouldn't spend eternity without His beloved. And these were His enemies who would one day become His beloved.

So. can you see why this makes Him special? Can you see how He is different from us? And He still will show His power through love for people who presently hate Him today.

Once again Pagans do not believe the Christian myth of the fall much less the concept of sin.



The Jesus myth does not show love in any way at all. It shows a deity who is so out of touch with his followers that he cannot understand them. Further it shows your God to be less than loving for two reasons: first the entire fall thing indicates that either that your God really is not omniscient (all knowing) when he set up the fall and made the order to not eat the apple (they ate the apple…big surprise) or that your God was indifferent in that he knew what would happen but decided it wasn’t worth his time to stop or worse that your God is a sociopath and knew and took delight in what happened.

Regardless of the fall the big problem comes in the timing of the arrival of Jesus. What took your loving God so long to get around to cleaning up this mess? Either he couldn’t do it before meaning he is not all powerful. Or he didn’t care, meaning he is not all loving, or he didn’t notice, meaning he is not all seeing.

Of course this just begs the bigger question: why would an all powerful, all loving and all forgiving God need to bother with the whole becoming human and dying thing? Why not just forgive immediately?



I will stick with my Deities thank you.

But that's God. That's not me. I already told you that I would not have been willing to love: without Him.

How sad for you.

No. A loophole is a way out of something. Where do you get this idea that man is only looking to obey law better when your own religion is a testimony to man's desire to do as he wills? Isn't that what it says? Do no harm...and do as you will. Get the deities to help get what you want. This is not a judgment; it's simply the fact.

I have posted on the difference between will and whim. Apparently you don’t really bother to read things here.

You used the term murder where the objective word is kill. If it authorized by the authority of God, then it is not murder.

You willingness to pretend murder is something else is both sick and horrible.

And I still await this answer: Why does God not have the right to rule over what His own hands have made? Have you already said you do not feel it is possible to love everyone? And has not God already taken the blows for sins He didn't commit?

The Universe is not a created object separate from the Divine. That is a Christian myth and not part of Paganism. The fall is a Christen myth and not part of Paganism. Sin is a strange Christian concept and not part of Paganism.

Christian. That would be under the New Covenant. Where is it written? Again, you're saying what man has told you. What about God? Read the New Testament.

Your bible was written, re written and eddited by human beings. It is a book, it is no differnet from any other book.

And yes I have read it…I was unimpressed.

This seems like a search for loopholes. Ways of making God's law seem unjust, and making man seem more just than God. Again, I ask you: Why do you feel that the creature has any right to judge the Creator?

Loopholes exist because they are part of authoritarian moral codes. They exist because no such code can be universal, applying to all people, in all situations, in all cultures, in all times.

I didn’t need to search for them, they exist all around.

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : Whitehorse

You mentioned that humans are the authors of all religions. If this is the case, then you have acknowledged that your religion is not true. Because if it came from humans, then it dod not come from God. And if it did not come from God, then how is man capable of determining this information?

All religions are human construction. But then again so is language and art and music. All are means of expression. All are true.

Religion is the outer construct, the physical rituals and history of a way of worship it is the act of worship but not the worship itself. Religion is not the worship or the spirituality.

However, Christianity is not manmade, ergo the constant focus on God, not man. If it were manmade, what would man make it for? As you say, to express a spiritual need or desire. So the focus is on man's wants, and not submitting his will to another.

Christianity is not different than any other religion. Though by believing so you manage to put the focus not on your God but on you because you are special enough to practice the one REAL religion.

If Christianity were manmade, then how could Christians submit to will that is not their own? How can you make up a religion of wanting things that are completely contradictory what you want? It is a logical impossibility.

because the religion is not the spirituality just the act.

The concept of making up our own rules and having no accountability for them is frightening to you? And moreso that personal accountability and eternal consequences? Hmmm.

Are you purposefully misrepresenting my religion?



It seems that you are.



Accountability is the cornerstone of Pagan ethics.



I have posted it. Havoc has, PistGurl has, Myah has, Mylinkay Asdara has, many others have as well.

Why do you ask if you only ignore the answer?



Yet you choose to pretend that somehow there is no accountability.



Your posts indicate you are not stupid so I must conclude you are being dishonest.

But is it really, truly taking accountability to say there is no such thing as sin, and that man makes the rules according to his own thoughts?

Much more so than believing in sin and believing in judgment and post-death rewards for yourself and punishment for those who are not you.

Actually, I don't know of any true Christians who believe in modernism at all. We don't believe we can arrive at the truth by reason, although if we have the truth, we most certainly can reason with it, because it is the truth. In other words, truth leads to reason, not reason to truth. Because if the reason is even slightly flawed, it is not true and therefore cannot lead to truth. But the truth triumphs over all, simply because it is the truth. And therefore one can reason effectively with truth, simply because it is true.

If reason is “flawed” than it is impossible to reason with the truth as doing so makes the truth something else.

Well, certainly Heaven does sweeten the deal, although our primary goal is God's glory and to partake in His incredible purposes. This is very, very sweet. It is satisfying. Although God's glory and purposes come first, it isn't wrong to want good things for ourselves. There's nothing immoral about that at all. It's how we receive those things that is the issue. God really is good. He wants us to enjoy life. And if we are faithful to seek His glory, He gives us far more of what we want than if we sought it for ourselves, and I've also discovered that He is far more in tune with what we want then we are. He's very generous. And of course, we only receive these gifts in their proper contexts and balances. Christianity is not gnosticism by any stretch of the imagination.

I fail to see how the Christian concept of heaven is sweet at all. I find it rather disturbing and distasteful.

Catholocism isn't Christianity. We love the people, but we have a lot of problems with their doctrines.

I see. So your particular sect or cult is only TRUE religion. Why am I not surprised.

But then why would anyone worship the earth? It is clearly not spirit, nor does it have a mind or spirit. If it did, even digging a place to put a foundation would be harm to the earth. Cutting down a tree would be harm. Killing an ant would be harm. And that situation with the Nazi you had mentioned could not take place either, because you would never be able to act in self-defense. If you did, you would be doing harm.

No one worships the earth. The earth is a physical object. I find this accusation cropping up often in conversations with fundamentalists, that non-Christians worship idols and objects. Where they got this idea from in the first place is a mystery. Why they continue to accuse other religions of it despite lack of evidence is also a mystery.

Rebirth always follows death. No part of the Divine dies, transformed, renewed but not die.

But trees, plants, and animals doe all the time. So if that which is created were really part of the creator, this would not be the case. The only way to reconcile the two is to either say that the temporal is not spirit, and therefore it dioes, or else the deity is not completely eternal.

Physical objects die. And their physical remains are transformed. Aphids eat the leaves of a plant, aphids dies and fall to the soil and decompose and enrich the soil which feeds the plant which feeds the aphids.



Death is not the end for anything.



I will die, my body will (hopefully) decay and the elements used to make up my body will return to the earth. Nothing of my body will be lost. I will also survive my death, my soul will survive, and nothing is lost.



The universe will die and be made anew or be taken back within the being of the Divine, nothing will be lost.

How can morality come from that which is immoral? How can morality come from a philosophy that does not acknowledge sin?

Perhaps the fact that it does could explain why morality works so poorly

Morality is not the same as ethical. Morality is the rules but ethics are the why.

One can live without the rules and be ethical. In fact I think it is easier to be ethical without the set of laws, far to often I see people using the laws of religion to justify their less than moral behavior.

Because Lillith clearly said she is god.

To quote you: “Anyone can claim to do something in someone's name”

Originally posted by : Mylinkay Asdara

Lilithspeak (to my knowledge) is not a wiccan. I don't believe her beliefs and Havoc or mine for that matter fall under the same religous catagory unless you expand the catagory to 'general pagan' or 'non-christian' which is a big expansion.

Andyou have said that humans are a part of the divine. And the philosophy as debated shows this to be a belief that pagans truly do hold.

the thougth I am thinking right now is part of me, but it is not human.

The cuticle of my left index finger is part of me, but it is not human.



I am part of the human race, but I am not humanity.



I am part of the galaxy, but I am not the galaxy.



Being part of the Divine does not make us Divine, it does make us sacred and gives us intrinsic worth, but that does not make us Gods.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

it is the Christian religion that places man above nature (making man a supernatural being) not Paganism.

You've got to be kidding. You're placing the created world above the Creator. We're talking about God and man here, not temporal beings versus temporal beings.

This subject has been talked about before yet you contiue to misrepresent the Pagan worldview on this point.

Perhaps my responses were not to your liking.

c[olor=black]you bible certaily spends a great deal of time and effort to glorify man. [/font][/size][/color]

Then you can't be very familiar with it...

Chrisatns believe in special creation indicating that man is diffenret and special, a concept Pagan’s reject. Christins believe that man is the only living thing with a soul which glorifies man. Christins believe that they have a connection to the Divine which all others lack (glorifying the self). Christinas believe that only their religion (and usually one their specific sect/cult) is capable of having a “correct” realtionship with the Divine. Beleiveing that man can decide to live apart from the Divine and have it be somehow so is yet another example of how Christianity glorifies humanity.

These statements are the epitome of what I'v ebeen getting at; why wicca doesn't hold water. It elevates man above God, the creation above man, everything is backwards. You're saying CHristinity elevates man which is completely inaccurate; this isn't true, any of it. And that's why wicca cannot be true. If something has to be twisted or redirected in order to seem effective, then it is no longer true, and is therefore false.

Pagans on the other hand do not beelive in special creation,human beings are no better and no worse than any other living thing. Every perosn and every living thing has the same connection to the Divine, the Divine does not play favorites based on soemthing as nonsenical as a human made religon.

This has been addressed already

No Pagan ever need defend his or her religon because excluivness is not part of our reliigon. The correct religion is the one the person is on and since all religions are human made constructs designed to fulfill a spiritual need ther eis no one correct religion, all are correct for those that follow them.

And here is the continual focus on man, that man is the source of the religion. And this is why it so clearly cannot be the truth.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

All religions are human construction. But then again so is language and art and music. All are means of expression. All are true.

Religion is the outer construct, the physical rituals and history of a way of worship it is the act of worship but not the worship itself. Religion is not the worship or the spirituality.



Christianity is not different than any other religion. Though by believing so you manage to put the focus not on your God but on you because you are special enough to practice the one REAL religion.


because the religion is not the spirituality just the act.



Are you purposefully misrepresenting my religion?



It seems that you are.



Accountability is the cornerstone of Pagan ethics.



I have posted it. Havoc has, PistGurl has, Myah has, Mylinkay Asdara has, many others have as well.

Why do you ask if you only ignore the answer?



Yet you choose to pretend that somehow there is no accountability.



Your posts indicate you are not stupid so I must conclude you are being dishonest.





Much more so than believing in sin and believing in judgment and post-death rewards for yourself and punishment for those who are not you.





If reason is “flawed” than it is impossible to reason with the truth as doing so makes the truth something else.





I fail to see how the Christian concept of heaven is sweet at all. I find it rather disturbing and distasteful.





I see. So your particular sect or cult is only TRUE religion. Why am I not surprised.



No one worships the earth. The earth is a physical object. I find this accusation cropping up often in conversations with fundamentalists, that non-Christians worship idols and objects. Where they got this idea from in the first place is a mystery. Why they continue to accuse other religions of it despite lack of evidence is also a mystery.





Physical objects die. And their physical remains are transformed. Aphids eat the leaves of a plant, aphids dies and fall to the soil and decompose and enrich the soil which feeds the plant which feeds the aphids.



Death is not the end for anything.



I will die, my body will (hopefully) decay and the elements used to make up my body will return to the earth. Nothing of my body will be lost. I will also survive my death, my soul will survive, and nothing is lost.



The universe will die and be made anew or be taken back within the being of the Divine, nothing will be lost.





Perhaps the fact that it does could explain why morality works so poorly

Morality is not the same as ethical. Morality is the rules but ethics are the why.

One can live without the rules and be ethical. In fact I think it is easier to be ethical without the set of laws, far to often I see people using the laws of religion to justify their less than moral behavior.





To quote you: “Anyone can claim to do something in someone's name”







the thougth I am thinking right now is part of me, but it is not human.

The cuticle of my left index finger is part of me, but it is not human.



I am part of the human race, but I am not humanity.



I am part of the galaxy, but I am not the galaxy.



Being part of the Divine does not make us Divine, it does make us sacred and gives us intrinsic worth, but that does not make us Gods.

But you have already said it is manmade. So it cannot be from God. You condemn me for focusing on God-this is the beginning, middle, and end of why wicca cannot be true. But of course if the intention is to believe what one wants to believe, then this is what a person will do. You can list thousands of people who believe what you do, but it does not testify that it is true. In fact, it testifies the opposite of what you intend it to.

Beliefs are not truth. Truth alone is truth.

Blessings to you.

PS- I will be spending the next few days in prayer, if anyone wishes any. This is an open request, and anyone is welcome. PM me and I'll give it careful attention. Even though we don't agree, I do enjoy our conversations very much and wish the best for everyone.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

But then why would anyone worship the earth? It is clearly not spirit, nor does it have a mind or spirit. If it did, even digging a place to put a foundation would be harm to the earth. Cutting down a tree would be harm. Killing an ant would be harm. And that situation with the Nazi you had mentioned could not take place either, because you would never be able to act in self-defense. If you did, you would be doing harm.

We don't 'worship' the earth, we do see it as part of the Divine and we rever it, but we don't bow down to the earth in worship. It's a symbol and a part of the Pressence that is All.

I really think that this debate needs some cold water right now. It went from a respectful exchange of beliefs to a conversion attempt to downright nastiness. I will not be returning to this thread until the civility is restored. I hope that no one gets hot under the collar to the point they can't cool off

 

[Blissman]

ROMANS 2:12 - 2:16

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.