Is being Wiccan moral?

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Whitehorse: I think the incompatiblity that you are refering to is when we invoke and evoke, correct? Havoc has already explained that you do the same when you call your God to be present (for weddings, mass, baptisms, and so on) and when you ask God to enter your heart (the premise of salvation in many ways is having the Holy Spirit and accepting Jesus, correct?) but you seem to still have an issue because we call the God or Goddess (we don't just worship the Goddess- there is a Lord and a Lady) to be present and aid us in magic. This is an inovation, but it's in the form of prayer. We ask the gods to aid us and be present when we use magic or do anything sacred like that. We can't order them to be present so we ask. Of course, they are always 'with' us within ourselves, but when we call out to them we ask them to be with us both within and without and present.

I'm wondering why wiccans need tangible objects to harness energy within them that is part of the divine...

Do you mean in a sense of using tools (wands, athames, ect) or do you mean in the sense of gemstone work and herbal work and drawing energy from other sources (because I think I already explained that in a previous post, but I could go back and make sure, or explain further if you want to pull the passages you didn't understand so I can elaborate on them)?

As for ethics: Blissman, did you go and look up the full Rede as I advised? That's the law. That's the 'commandments' as it were. Hitler and Stalin and all of them couldn't claim to be following it because they did harm. You are not to harm anyone even if you believe it to be for a 'higher purpose' (as Hitler did) or a 'greater good'. If you have to harm people to accomplish your goals, then your goals are probably not where they should be and you'd have to go against the law of the Rede to accomplish them.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Did I miss anyone's questions?

 

[Godschild]

Why is there more of an emphasis on the Goddess? If the God and Goddess are equal, then why do you focus more on the Goddess than the God? I hope I'm not confusing anyone.

 

[Lillithspeak]

Irrelevant. So what you're saying is, it doesn't matter what the god or goddess's will is. That means that you're not conforming to the will of your deity, but conforming the deity's will to yours.

No, you misunderstand. It's irrelevant to state the obvious. They aren't Christians, why would they believe in him?

There are two problems with this. First, it would contradict this professed philosophy of wicca to do no harm, because it would not only bend a will, but it would bend the will of a supposedly far more powerful being-a deity. secondly, that would make for a very weak deity.

You're whole rebuttal makes no sense in light of the above statement correcting your misunderstanding of my point. I am not Wiccan, although I heavily respect their beliefs and I love that they actively search for ways to consciously create. They know the profound truth about energy.



Okay, then I respectfully request for you to take away the holocaust and make it so it never happened. But for the present tense, make the sky turn orange tomorrow night at 8:00 so we can see this making of reality.

The Holocaust was a hugely important event for humanity to experience, "taking it away" would also take away all of the benefits of experiencing the event and negating the efforts of millions of people.

The sky can turn orange tomorrow, as it does nearly every day, at sunset, without any request from you.

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm only pointing out that you cannot. God gives you certain abilities, but creating reality isn't one of them. You may only operate within reality and make choices, but your willing something to be so does not make it so. Only what God wills to allow you to do, can you do. The choice is limited to what God has allowed.

God is not limited in any way, nor are we, as we are God. God is All That Is.



And do you think you are god? If so, then how is it that you didn't exist before your birth? Take away world hunger, if you are god. You can't be serious.

I don't think I am God, I know I am. I did exist before my birth, as did everyone else, always. There is no point in ""world hunger", it's existence serves a greater purpose, giving all of us an opportunity to experience some very important things. I am most certainly serious. Gloriously so, in fact.

But since you are not a god, then how can God deny His own existence? How can any deity make himself disappear?

All That Is can do any number of "impossible" things before you can blink your eye. God doesn't deny his existence, she is.


Not so about the Christianity. This represents only the new testament era since the birth of Christ, and the acknowledgement that Jesus is indeed the messiah. The religion goes back to before the world began. It begins with God Himself, Who is eternal.

Christianity only exists from the time of Jesus's experience, that's according to your beliefs. God has always existed, and will always exist, God is All That Is. Religion is of no importance to these facts.

Do you honestly think you are a god? You were born. You have a birthdate. You are not a god. If you are a god, tell me what is going to happen tommorow in Myanmar. Just curious-if you are a god, what kind of grades did you get in school? I sure hope you're joking. So much for wiccan philosophy. That is the ultimate usurpation.

Yes, I am God. Yes, I was born. Yes, I have a birthdate. Your logic is flawed. I am a God. Your denial of it doesn't change the fact. Tomorrow in Myanmar God will have a thousand, thousand experiences, some will be joyous, some will not, some will uplift, some will degrade, but all will be an experience of God. Grades are important to you? High School or College? College was 4.0, H.S. was 3.7 to 4.0. What was your's?

I am not kidding, although I do often kid around. I prefer George Carlin as a comedian, although I also loved Red Skelton for his gentle comedy.


Are you kidding? You have to be.

 

[Lillithspeak]

Whitehorse has said the following which is interesting in light of his challenges to my statements:

Whitehorse: Verifiable is not truth. Because not all that is can be verified, and that which seems verifiable can be shrouded in distortion and delusion.

Exactly, not everything can be verified, and that goes for everyone elses' truth's also.

Whitehorse: Yes!!! Exactly! It can *never* be proven by man. And that is God's intent. This is a brilliant conclusion that most people never understand their whole lives through, and I'm very impressed to hear you say this. However, unverifiable and false are not the same thing.

Whitehorse: Men can't determine morality-we don't have the right. God has planted morality in our hearts, but most people suppress the truth because it gets in the way of what they really want to do.

?? If God has planted morality in your heart, then you can determine it, by looking within.

So are you saying that God allows people who are not Jewish to worship false Gods? In making the statements above you're misrepresenting the word of God and condemning Him! That's what my God would call real chutzpah! In any army, it is treason to fraternize with the enemy. It leads to a court martial. Are you suggesting that Christians should cozy up to God's enemies and try to be liked and admired by them because they're afraid of persecution? That they should value their comfort more than they do their God? That they should listen to the left pounding their Godforsaken pulpit of tolernace, with tolerance for everyone but for Christians? That we should become gods unto ourselves? God forbid, we will not surround ourselves with teachers telling what itching ears want to hear. Believe it or not, God does have people in this country who will remain true to Him. Those whom God has chosen will be faithful to God. We are called to be in the world but not of it. #137

Their "God forsaken pulpit of tolerance?" Only your pulpit of intolerance is not forsaken by God?


Take no man's word for anything-but seek God's will as it is revealed in His full scriptures, OT and NT. #142


As in a "bible" written and edited by men many times over to suit the political interests of the day?

Whitehorse:I think the arrogance comes from not understanding that we do not have a right to invent our own realities. I think there's arrogance in coming into a Christian community and saying Christian beliefs are arrogant, bigotted, ridiculous-this is arrogant. Telling God to take a back seat to personal beliefs, this is arrogant. To be more concerned with whether someone else is personally right rather than whether an ideology is going to cause harm, that is self-serving to the core, and loaded to the gills with envy as well. That's about pride, not truth. #177

Ah, the gloves came off, now we know what you really think about others opinions.

 

[Havoc]

Why is there more of an emphasis on the Goddess? If the God and Goddess are equal, then why do you focus more on the Goddess than the God? I hope I'm not confusing anyone.

I don't emphasise Goddess more than God. I hold them both as equal. On these sort of discussion boards probably Goddess gets talked about more because it is a point of departure between your and our beliefs.

 

[Lillithspeak]

I don't emphasise Goddess more than God. I hold them both as equal. On these sort of discussion boards probably Goddess gets talked about more because it is a point of departure between your and our beliefs.

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed your posts as a Celtic Witch and the posts of others who are Wiccan or Pagan. What lovely behavior on these usually hate full sites. Have you ever read "The Twenty-0ne Lessons of Merlin" By Lewis? (or is it Llewellyn?)Douglas?

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Perfectly said. The goddess is discussed more here because she is a major difference in our religions. We both have a god, but we also have a goddess so it's something that we tend to talk about more. Some covens (circles of wiccans who practice together their religion) do put more emphasis on the goddess, others emphasize the god. It's a knee jerk reaction for some women when the come to wicca to only rever one or the other (usually the goddess) especially if they've come from a patriarchal (I can't spell today) religion like Christianity.

That's not the way things are meant to be. There is supposed to be equal balance between the two.... but I haven't met anyone who was perfect yet and usually after a bit of time the practitioner balances out their views to include both nearly equally or they can do a lateral move to 'goddess worship' which is one half of a system like wicca, but the practitioners only rever the goddess really in ceremony and allow other more druidic groups pay homage to the god for them. Sort of a male and female priesthood where each sex worships their own gendered deity.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you see an incompatibility in these two statements? If there is no imcompatibility then they are compatible. Perhaps you could explain why you see these as not being compatible so I can address the issue directly.

I'm sorry-I can see how that could be confusing. I was actually comparing your statement to Lillith's, saying that people are gods. Which, we clearly aren't. So to my that would be the ultimate usurpation. I don't understand how these two beliefs, one that finite human beings are gods, and that one should never control a deity, can coincide within this philosophy of not harming anyone or controlling another.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Lilithspeak (to my knowledge) is not a wiccan. I don't believe her beliefs and Havoc or mine for that matter fall under the same religous catagory unless you expand the catagory to 'general pagan' or 'non-christian' which is a big expansion.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse: I think the incompatiblity that you are refering to is when we invoke and evoke, correct? Havoc has already explained that you do the same when you call your God to be present (for weddings, mass, baptisms, and so on) and when you ask God to enter your heart (the premise of salvation in many ways is having the Holy Spirit and accepting Jesus, correct?)

The things we do in worship are expressly commissioned and commanded by God. So, we do what He tells us to do when we worship this way and make requests. Jesus commanded us to. Do you have some sort of written authority where your god/goddess gives you this command? Moreover, why do people choose wicca? (This is a really pleasant debate. I'm enjoying this one.)

but you seem to still have an issue because we call the God or Goddess (we don't just worship the Goddess- there is a Lord and a Lady) to be present and aid us in magic. This is an inovation, but it's in the form of prayer. We ask the gods to aid us and be present when we use magic or do anything sacred like that. We can't order them to be present so we ask. Of course, they are always 'with' us within ourselves, but when we call out to them we ask them to be with us both within and without and present.

Someone said earlier that there must be a great amount of responsibility exercised in this magic, because people use it for the wrong reasons. And I think there is an important principle in that. This power can be used by evil people. So either the god and goddess don't discriminate, or they don't have a moral value, or they cannot control the power, or...and I think this is the the one that encapsulates all the rest of those possibilitites: this very real power comes from spirits professing to be a god and goddess, but they are not. I do know the power is real. I do know the spirits are real. But their lack of moral discrimination reveals them for who they truly are: demonic spirits that appear as angels of light.

Just in case there was any question, I don't feel that wiccans are aware of this. I think many of them aren't doing this thinking they're rebelling against God. I think they just want to make their lives better, and lives of the people around them better. They tried something, it worked, and so I think they really believe they are worshipping deities. But in realitiy, I'm certain those deities are no deities. They are covetous spirits who want to usurp God's throne, but cannot. So they decided to appear as if they were to mankind to "steal" some of God's worship, knowing full well how odious it is to God, and thereby bar the person's way to salvation through this activity. Several of my friends did this. But they are Christians now, though.

Do you mean in a sense of using tools (wands, athames, ect) or do you mean in the sense of gemstone work and herbal work and drawing energy from other sources (because I think I already explained that in a previous post, but I could go back and make sure, or explain further if you want to pull the passages you didn't understand so I can elaborate on them)?

Well if the energy is inside you, then why do you need outside objects to harness the energy? And why do evil people possess and use this power?
[/QUOTE]

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

?? If God has planted morality in your heart, then you can determine it, by looking within.

I think you're trying to malliate our religion into yours. God is a separate entity. He does engrave truth on our hearts, but we do not look to ourselves, because ther are otherthings going on in our hearts as well. We have the Holy SPirit. We also have the old sin nature still present. God is His own Person; we are not God. He is in His people, but we are not God. What do you have against going to God? That's where we go. Why do we still have scripture although God has written His law on the hearts of His people? After you sort this one through, you'll realize that a couple of words are not the whole of the Bible.

So are you saying that God allows people who are not Jewish to worship false Gods?

Lillith, it might be a good idea to use the quote boxes. Because this next part is where my words begin again. But because this follows your comments, it looks like you're saying it to me:

In making the statements above you're misrepresenting the word of God and condemning Him! That's what my God would call real chutzpah! In any army, it is treason to fraternize with the enemy. It leads to a court martial. Are you suggesting that Christians should cozy up to God's enemies and try to be liked and admired by them because they're afraid of persecution? That they should value their comfort more than they do their God? That they should listen to the left pounding their Godforsaken pulpit of tolernace, with tolerance for everyone but for Christians? That we should become gods unto ourselves? God forbid, we will not surround ourselves with teachers telling what itching ears want to hear. Believe it or not, God does have people in this country who will remain true to Him. Those whom God has chosen will be faithful to God. We are called to be in the world but not of it. #137

Not to mention it makes it really hard to separate everything with all the font and size code intermingled with statements that aren't distinguished once you hit the quote button.

To make the quote box, simply put {quote=whoever} except use the square brackets, not the ones I used. And then where you want it to end, use {/quote].

Their "God forsaken pulpit of tolerance?" Only your pulpit of intolerance is not forsaken by God?

This is something you would expect to hear from someone who truly believes she is god. Why are you not omniscient? I don't want generalizations that could happen anywhere about what will happen next week in Myanmar; I want names and events that cannot be foretold by us finite creatures.

As in a "bible" written and edited by men many times over to suit the political interests of the day?

This is not based on any knowledge. I'm pleased to debate with you, Lillith, but let's stick to the facts. Anyone can make up wild accusations and pin them on the other person's viewpoint, but I'm interested in getting to the truth. And if you were god, you'd know this already.

Ah, the gloves came off, now we know what you really think about others opinions.

Sorry your gloves came off; I have another pair if you'd like to borrow them. But actually I'm not here to discuss opinions so much as truth. And there are many wiccans here that I do not agree with, but who are very pleasant to debate and whose company I enjoy.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Lilithspeak (to my knowledge) is not a wiccan. I don't believe her beliefs and Havoc or mine for that matter fall under the same religous catagory unless you expand the catagory to 'general pagan' or 'non-christian' which is a big expansion.

Okay-that makes better sense.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

The things we do in worship are expressly commissioned and commanded by God. So, we do what He tells us to do when we worship this way and make requests. Jesus commanded us to. Do you have some sort of written authority where your god/goddess gives you this command? Moreover, why do people choose wicca? (This is a really pleasant debate. I'm enjoying this one.)

No. Simply we don't have anything written because most of the tradition was passed down orally and what was documented was presumably destroyed (most likely by Christians scouring the area of pagan beliefs). However, some evidence of rituals at the full and new moons does survive and the eight holy days of the year (the Sabbats) are traditional havest and solar - ly significant days with cultural and religious conotations. So yes and no really. But nothing written that hasn't been recorded in the last century.

God is a separate entity. He does engrave truth on our hearts, but we do not look to ourselves, because ther are otherthings going on in our hearts as well. We have the Holy SPirit. We also have the old sin nature still present. God is His own Person; we are not God. He is in His people, but we are not God. What do you have against going to God? That's where we go. Why do we still have scripture although God has written His law on the hearts of His people? After you sort this one through, you'll realize that a couple of words are not the whole of the Bible.

See, here we have another difference in religious beliefs. We do not believe that Deity (read: God) is a separate entity. The best analogy that I can proved is the human body. I am myself. I have a mind that I use, presumably a soul, and I am concious of myself. But there are organisms that are alive within me that make up my biological form. Cells. In this analogy I am Deity (read: God) and my cells are humans (us as it were). I am greater than the sum of my parts by far and beyond. But they are a part of me. They are living and dying and functioning as I type this very message. I am almost unaware of them but I know they are there. Also, in each cell that comprises my body is my DNA. Theoretically I could be cloned off a few cells from my body because each of them contains the blueprint of me within them.
The relationship with humans and Deity is seen something like this in the pagan/wiccan religion. We carry the blueprint/spark/essence of the Divine because we too are part of the Divine, though we are not the Divine due to scale. (Or, put another way, the Divine is much much bigger than we are and though we carry the spark it is in miniature in comparison)
Also we don't endorse the idea of 'sin nature' it just isn't part of our dogma.

Someone said earlier that there must be a great amount of responsibility exercised in this magic, because people use it for the wrong reasons. And I think there is an important principle in that. This power can be used by evil people.

Yes, there must be great responsiblity exercised. Again, I believe I spoke about Karma. What energy you put out returns to you. If you are going to flip about cursing people and wishing ill then ill is what you will get when the wheel turns. It's not in anyone's best interest to use magic inapropriately.

So either the god and goddess don't discriminate, or they don't have a moral value, or they cannot control the power, or...and I think this is the the one that encapsulates all the rest of those possibilitites: this very real power comes from spirits professing to be a god and goddess, but they are not. I do know the power is real. I do know the spirits are real. But their lack of moral discrimination reveals them for who they truly are: demonic spirits that appear as angels of light.

Okay... here's the thing. Negativity is not morally bad. Negative energy can be used to break apart illness or to disolve an unhealthy bond between someone and a former lover of theirs or anything. Negative energy can be used for postive reasons to positive results. Positive energy is the same deal. If you use magic for 'immoral' purposes (could you please give some examples?) then you are going to be punished by Karma. The gods do care, but they don't interfere with our free will. Sometimes people need to do bad things in order to learn the life lessons that their soul returned here to learn.

They are covetous spirits who want to usurp God's throne, but cannot. So they decided to appear as if they were to mankind to "steal" some of God's worship, knowing full well how odious it is to God, and thereby bar the person's way to salvation through this activity. Several of my friends did this. But they are Christians now, though.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it... but it comes dangerously close to the theme 'prove your god' and I don't know if that's somewhere we want to go with this because in honesty... and I hope you're willing to be honest about this... neither of us can prove the nature of Deity beyond our own beliefs and the reasons we have them.

Well if the energy is inside you, then why do you need outside objects to harness the energy? And why do evil people possess and use this power?

Again, it's about the natural tendancy of the energy and people's ablity to program their own energy. I did discuss this at length earlier in one of my posts and I'll try to find it and re-post it. As for evil people. Well, they're still people. This power is within every single one of us and like or not that's the way it is. Again, people who abuse it will get a rude awakening about that sort of thing through their own deeds. The joy of the Law of Three. Also, again, some souls have come here to learn lessons that they can only learn by doing things that they shouldn't and learning the consequenses for them. It's a lesson we all have to cover eventually. Most power-hungry evil people don't flock to wicca though, or if they do they leave afterwards. When people realize how much devotion, disipline, and work goes into creating magic they tend to shy off if they were only in it for a 'quick fix' to begin with. (Lots of teens leave wicca and other pagan religions after only a year or two because it turns out to be just as demanding of their self-disipline as any other religion in the end)

 

[Bonhoffer]

For me being a Wiccan is every bit as 'moral' as being Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

Unfortunatly my beleifs as a Christian is that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven other than through Jesus Christ. Therefore Biblically Wicca is a Sin, but personally I have no problem with it.

Those who practive Wicca can be as every bit as moral as any Christian, but it wont get them to Heaven!

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Mylinkay, I understand what you are saying about the negative returns of magic done for evil, but I'm looking at it from the angle of morality. If I understood correctly, Havoc said that there is no bending of the will of others, including the divine. Rather, only the prayers and magic reflecting the will of the divine would be successful.

So if the evil person misused magic, it would have to be the will of that deity to want him to succeed. That's why it would seem that there is no connection between morality and the ability of the person to harness this power.

So that would leave us with the conclusion that either this god/goddess is not moral, or their will was bent to one who was not moral, or they could not control the actions of this person, or they are not gods/goddesses.

Another question; how would this negative energy end a relationship without bending the will of the parties involved?

Hm. Confused.

Bonhoffer, if you truly believe the Bible is true, I'm curious as to how do you not have a problem with other religions...?

 

[Havoc]

I think the difficulty you are having is to do with the qualities and use of Magick. Magick is not in a sack, doled out by the Gods to whom they will as long as the person is doing what the God commands.

Magick is a natural force or energy, just as electricity is. Now you believe your God created electricity. That electrcity can be used for good, as in a surgeons laser scalpel, or for evil, as in the detonator for a biological bomb. Does using electricity for evil purposes render your God evil? No, of course not. People actually use electricity without even asking your God's permission first!! But a Christian will thank God for electricity (I'm assuming you folks still do that), and a Christian electrical engineer will ask for your God's assistance in creating new uses for electricity.

Magick is no different in this regard. People can possibly use Magick harmfully, although it is rather counterproductive (more on this later). Doing so reflects on the person, not on God or Goddess. Magick, like electricity, can be used without assistance of God and Goddess, and they do not choose to assist in harmful magick for those foolish enough to try. In the same fashion they are often willing to assist in magickal workings which are benevolent and which suit their purpose.

As far as doing harmful magick goes (the Christian concepts of good and evil really don't apply) it simply becomes counter productive. We have another concept, a quality of nature as it were, called the rule of three. This is simply the way the universe reacts to the use of Magick. The rule of three states that what you send out comes back threefold. If you use magick to heal and strengthen then you get healing and strengthening back threefold. This manifests in the increased ability to use magick over time. Practicing healing magick makes you better able to use magick, which makes it more likely that you will use healing magick which makes you better able to use magick..... and so on.

Practicing harmful magick has the opposite effect. Those who do get the harm returned to them threefold which make it harder for them to use magick. Thus harmful magick is self-defeating and no one ever rises above a rather basic level by useing it. This is no different than electricity which has it's own safety rules. If you choose to work with electricity without regard to the rules of safety you will never become a proficient electrician. You will never rise above a very basic level of electrical usage and you will quite likely harm yourself irreparably in the process.

Electricians obey the naturally mandated safety rules of electricity and Witches obey the naturally mandated safety rules of Magick. It's just that simple.

So, as you see, once you understand the nature of the Divine and Magick there is no incompatibility.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Okay, help me straighten a few things out here.

I'm beginning to get the impression that in wicca, there is no sense of morality. No right or wrong. So these gods and goddesses would not have a moral component to them.

So that would mean they are not sovereign, either, because their will would not be a factor if this magick is performed without their knowledge or help or permission. And what exactly is the basis of this energy? Why is part of the religion if it is spiritually benign, such as electricity?

Also, if a person uses neagtive energy in a way that is harmful, how would that impact his ability to perform it? And if this is the case, he'd be at a trifold neagtive his first time, and therefore would never be able to become powerful. But apparently evil people can become powerful, if there is to be any need for responsibility.

 

[Blissman]

What does the Wiccan faith say to the Genesis of man (and of the universe)? Of the Origins of The Lady and The Lord? Of man? Does Wicca believe that there will be an end of the Universe? Does Wicca place man in perspective to the universe? Is there a Wicca Wedding Ceremony? (If so, please elaborate).

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : Whitehorse

The things we do in worship are expressly commissioned and commanded by God. So, we do what He tells us to do when we worship this way and make requests. Jesus commanded us to. Do you have some sort of written authority where your god/goddess gives you this command? Moreover, why do people choose wicca? (This is a really pleasant debate. I'm enjoying this one.)

No such written authority exists. If someone were to claim such I don’t know of any Wiccan or Pagan that would believe them or pay any attention.



The basis of Neo-Pagan spirituality is ones individual relationship with the Divine. There is no correct way to have such a relationship, there are no prescribed activities or works one must do to achieve this. In rejecting authoritarianism in the structure of religion Neo-Pagans embrace their unique relationship with the Divine.



I cannot say why people as a whole embrace Wicca or other Pagan religions I can only speak for myself. I was a Pagan long before I knew such a religion existed. As I child I worshiped members of the Greek pantheon. It was only in my late teens that I learned I wasn’t the only one praying to and relating to the old Gods. Personally I appreciate the advanced ethical philosophy of Paganism as well as the inclusiveness of the religion, every one is welcomed as they are, even Christians.

Someone said earlier that there must be a great amount of responsibility exercised in this magic, because people use it for the wrong reasons. And I think there is an important principle in that. This power can be used by evil people. So either the god and goddess don't discriminate, or they don't have a moral value, or they cannot control the power, or...and I think this is the the one that encapsulates all the rest of those possibilitites:

There is a great amount of responsibility in any action. Every choice we make has consequences and repercussions not just magic.



As for your statement that the Gods and Goddesses do not discriminate or do not have moral values: For the Divine to grant free will but to them restrict or limit the free will granted is an indication that free will does not really exist at all. If one embraces the concept of free will (and Pagans do) then the Divine will not discriminate and treat all as equals and leave us to the consequences of our choices.



If we are to have free will and the ability to be moral agents that means our will is free and the consequences of our actions our ours alone. This in not the absence of ethics on the part of the Divine but rather the logical conclusion of ethics and free will.

this very real power comes from spirits professing to be a god and goddess, but they are not. I do know the power is real. I do know the spirits are real. But their lack of moral discrimination reveals them for who they truly are: demonic spirits that appear as angels of light.

You of course realize that the exact same thing can be said of you God and your religion, that it is the result of less than ethical spirits.

Well if the energy is inside you, then why do you need outside objects to harness the energy?

One does not need physical objects at all. Any more than Christens need to build churches to worship in. There is the difference between not needing objects and enjoying objects.

And why do evil people possess and use this power?

Define what makes one person evil and what makes another good. Honest people will say that it is difficult in the extreme. One might point to a mass murder and say that is evil because he has killed many people. However the same could be said of a soldier in war who has killed many people. Why is one good and the other evil? Where is the line between good and evil?

For a less extreme example: let us say person A shot and killed person B. Is person A evil? What if person A is a drug smuggler and person B is a police officer, does this make person A more evil? What if person A is the police officer, does this make the shooting of person B good?



As I said above if we accept the concept of free will and embrace the idea that we are responsible for our actions the question becomes why should the Divine discriminate?



You may want to read the War Prayer by Mark Twain, it is both disturbing and enlightening in how it uses religion to pray for and take joy in the pain and suffering of others.

God is a separate entity…. God is His own Person; we are not God. He is in His people, but we are not God. What do you have against going to God? That's where we go. Why do we still have scripture although God has written His law on the hearts of His people? After you sort this one through, you'll realize that a couple of words are not the whole of the Bible.

Pagans believe much the same, that the Divine both wholly immanent (present in the world) and wholly transcendent (separate from the world). The Universe was not created ex-nihlo (out of nothing) but is an intrinsic part of the Divine itself. The Divine is not dependant nor does it need the universe, the universe however is dependant upon and does need the Divine. Modern Pagan Artists have taken to illustrating this by depicting the Goddess as pregnant with the world.



Because the universe is not a separately created object it and everything within it (including us) has intrinsic value because it is part of the Divine. That is the basis of Pagan ethics, that everything has intrinsic value, that everything is sacred. We are not divine beings, but we are part of the Divine but so are cats and cockroaches and oak trees.



In the Pagan worldview sin is a strange and ultimately alien concept. By sin I am referring to not only (lower case) sin, the disregard for a set of authoritarian moral codes, as well as (upper case) SIN humanities refusal to live in something other than complete dependence on the Christian God. Neither are possible in Paganism. In the case of sin there are no authoritarian moral codes, we live with the consequences of our actions knowing our decisions reflect upon us. In the case of SIN since the Divine is immanent and we are part of the Divine there is no way we can be separate from the Divine no matter what we say or do or believe, it just isn’t possible.

Okay, help me straighten a few things out here.
I'm beginning to get the impression that in wicca, there is no sense of morality. No right or wrong. So these gods and goddesses would not have a moral component to them.

I have similar impressions with your religion and the apparent lack of morals exhibited by your God.

I have been told numerous times that it is not odes actions that determine ones destination after death rather it is ones status as “saved” or not saved. Ultimately this means that a truly good person who is not a Christian is, by the tenants of your religion, condemned to eternal torment in the Christian hell while a less than moral person who made a deathbed conversion would spend eternity in paradise. So it appears that your God does not care about moral choices made while living. I cannot view this as moral no matter how I look at it.

So that would mean they are not sovereign, either, because their will would not be a factor if this magick is performed without their knowledge or help or permission. And what exactly is the basis of this energy? Why is part of the religion if it is spiritually benign, such as electricity?

Once again your statement can be turned on your religion. If your God is the only such being than why does he allow these lesser spirits to manipulate humans so? This would men your God is not sovereign in that he either does not care, cannot do anything about it or is unaware that it is happening.



There are those who have made a study of magic and believe that it is related to quantum physics and manipulation of probability fields.



Light exhibits qualities of being simultaneously a wave and of being individual packets of energy or quanta. Scientists have known for over a century that if you construct an experiment to “prove” that light travels in waves light will oblige and travel in waves. If you construct an experiment to “prove” that light travels in discrete packets of energy, light will oblige and travel in discreet packets. Early quantum theorists called this the observer effect. It seems that quantum activities, especially those related to probability, actually NEED an observer to make things happen.