Is being Wiccan moral?

[Havoc]

I have some more questions.........Since when did God have/get a wife?? Why, if wicca pretty much puts most of the emphasis on the Goddess, does there need to be a God then?

First of all you have to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the way we understand the Divine and the way you do. Trying to understand our beliefs in terms of your own is not going to be very productive.

Your beliefs are based on a duality of Absolute Good verses Absolute evil. This renders the universe from your perspective as consisting of two armed camps, locked in a state of constant war until the ultimate battle in which you believe your side will win.

Our beliefs are based on a duality of Male and Female. This renders the universe from our perspective as consisting of two genders working cooperatively to produce the world in balance as we see it. Strife and suffering are caused by inbalance when people do things that are harmful to each other

Our concept is based on what we see in Nature. The balance is inherant in the Divine. It's not a case of "God" needing a "wife". It's a case of male and female aspects of the Divine working in harmony. The Goddess is just as important and powerful as the God. We do not believe in the Androcentric Christian God as you see him.

What does it mean to "invoke" a diety?

There are two similar words that are used in our faith, invoke and evoke. Both words come from Indo-European roots tha mean "to call". The difference between the words in Wiccan use has to do with the intent.

To evoke the Lord/Lady means to invite them to be present. To invoke means to invite them into yourself. From our perspective a Christian inviting the Holy Spirit into their heart would be an invocation, such is the nature of the action.

Is it true that you control the God/Goddess when you do spells?

No. There are a couple of reasons why this would no be.

1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

Why would one want to become wiccan?

Why would one want to become Christian? Why would one want to become Buddhist, or Shinto, or Hindu, or Muslim?

This is our path.

 

[Lillithspeak]

This is a very interesting question, about the morality of wicca. There are a couple of questions I would need to ask in order to make a determination:

First we would need to ask God what His will is.

Of course, a wiccan would say s/he does not believe in Jehovah.

Which is irrelevant.

But what is the motive for choosing wicca? This sort of religion is chosen, whereas Christianity is not chosen, but imparted. People believe it not because it is desireable-no, it is the single most offensive religion on the planet simply because it does not allow temporal beings to create reality, which it is impossible for people to do anyway, or to make choices about things eternal because we have neither the authority nor the power to do so.

Have to disagree with you here, we absolutely do create reality, every moment in time and all moments in time.

Christianity is imparted, not chosen.

Can we really have the right to choose our own gods? If so, then we are in authority over those gods, which, if any had been the real God, we would have no authority, as evidenced by our temporality. So this does not make sense.

We can choose no gods if we are god.

Moreover, if the religion is new, that means someone invented it and it cannot be the proper authority on things eternal. And it all boils down to Who we consult as to morality. As created beings, we are created obviously for the purpose of Another, not for our own. That is why we were created, because again, we have no say in our existence.

Christianity is only 2000 years old, Mormonism, younger than that. The point being, all religion was invented by humans, which is why it makes no sense.

So to whom do we go for authority? God.

God=ourselves.

Once we go to this authority, we know whether or not a religion is moral by whether or not it is true, and acceptable to God.

Which we, as God, determine.

Just a thought.

 

[Lillithspeak]

What's so lovely about Wiccans is that they harm no one, they don't try to force everyone else to be a Wiccan and they have these lovely rituals that are charming and sweet. They don't "witness for christ" or try to restrain other folks freedom. Yea for Wiccans! May they live long and prosper!

 

[Havoc]

Thanx Lillithspeak...

And never fear, we will, and we do, prosper

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hm. It would seem to me that invoking or evoking would be to conform these deities to ones will. In Christianity, we begin with the will and knowledge of the Lord, and we conform to the deity, not the other way around. Moreover, It would be interesting to know what determines these male and female traits, as it were. A goddess sounds like a female god.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse: This is a very interesting question, about the morality of wicca. There are a couple of questions I would need to ask in order to make a determination:

First we would need to ask God what His will is.

Of course, a wiccan would say s/he does not believe in Jehovah.

Lillith: Which is irrelevant.

Irrelevant. So what you're saying is, it doesn't matter what the god or goddess's will is. That means that you're not conforming to the will of your deity, but conforming the deity's will to yours.

There are two problems with this. First, it would contradict this professed philosophy of wicca to do no harm, because it would not only bend a will, but it would bend the will of a supposedly far more powerful being-a deity. secondly, that would make for a very weak deity.

Whitehorse: But what is the motive for choosing wicca? This sort of religion is chosen, whereas Christianity is not chosen, but imparted. People believe it not because it is desireable-no, it is the single most offensive religion on the planet simply because it does not allow temporal beings to create reality, which it is impossible for people to do anyway, or to make choices about things eternal because we have neither the authority nor the power to do so.

Lillith: Have to disagree with you here, we absolutely do create reality, every moment in time and all moments in time.

Okay, then I respectfully request for you to take away the holocaust and make it so it never happened. But for the present tense, make the sky turn orange tomorrow night at 8:00 so we can see this making of reality.

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm only pointing out that you cannot. God gives you certain abilities, but creating reality isn't one of them. You may only operate within reality and make choices, but your willing something to be so does not make it so. Only what God wills to allow you to do, can you do. The choice is limited to what God has allowed.

Whitehorse: Christianity is imparted, not chosen.

Can we really have the right to choose our own gods? If so, then we are in authority over those gods, which, if any had been the real God, we would have no authority, as evidenced by our temporality. So this does not make sense.

Lillith: We can choose no gods if we are god.

And do you think you are god? If so, then how is it that you didn't exist before your birth? Take away world hunger, if you are god. You can't be serious.

But since you are not a god, then how can God deny His own existence? How can any deity make himself disappear?

Whitehorse: Moreover, if the religion is new, that means someone invented it and it cannot be the proper authority on things eternal. And it all boils down to Who we consult as to morality. As created beings, we are created obviously for the purpose of Another, not for our own. That is why we were created, because again, we have no say in our existence.

Lillith: Christianity is only 2000 years old, Mormonism, younger than that. The point being, all religion was invented by humans, which is why it makes no sense.

So to whom do we go for authority? God.

God=ourselves.

Not so about the Christianity. This represents only the new testament era since the birth of Christ, and the acknowledgement that Jesus is indeed the messiah. The religion goes back to before the world began. It begins with God Himself, Who is eternal.

Do you honestly think you are a god? You were born. You have a birthdate. You are not a god. If you are a god, tell me what is going to happen tommorow in Myanmar. Just curious-if you are a god, what kind of grades did you get in school? I sure hope you're joking. So much for wiccan philosophy. That is the ultimate usurpation.

Whitehorse: Once we go to this authority, we know whether or not a religion is moral by whether or not it is true, and acceptable to God.

Lillith: Which we, as God, determine.

Just a thought.

Are you kidding? You have to be.

 

[Godschild]

First of all you have to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the way we understand the Divine and the way you do. Trying to understand our beliefs in terms of your own is not going to be very productive.

Your beliefs are based on a duality of Absolute Good verses Absolute evil. This renders the universe from your perspective as consisting of two armed camps, locked in a state of constant war until the ultimate battle in which you believe your side will win.

Our beliefs are based on a duality of Male and Female. This renders the universe from our perspective as consisting of two genders working cooperatively to produce the world in balance as we see it. Strife and suffering are caused by inbalance when people do things that are harmful to each other

Our concept is based on what we see in Nature. The balance is inherant in the Divine. It's not a case of "God" needing a "wife". It's a case of male and female aspects of the Divine working in harmony. The Goddess is just as important and powerful as the God. We do not believe in the Androcentric Christian God as you see him.


There are two similar words that are used in our faith, invoke and evoke. Both words come from Indo-European roots tha mean "to call". The difference between the words in Wiccan use has to do with the intent.

To evoke the Lord/Lady means to invite them to be present. To invoke means to invite them into yourself. From our perspective a Christian inviting the Holy Spirit into their heart would be an invocation, such is the nature of the action.


No. There are a couple of reasons why this would no be.

1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.


Why would one want to become Christian? Why would one want to become Buddhist, or Shinto, or Hindu, or Muslim?

This is our path.

I really hope that I didn't offend you with my questions. I'm sorry if I did.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Lillithspeak:
So to whom do we go for authority? God.

God=ourselves.

Havoc: 1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

I'd agree with Havoc that controlling the Divine is not a wise practice; it's unethical. But I don't see how this is consistent with the first view.

 

[Havoc]

Hm. It would seem to me that invoking or evoking would be to conform these deities to ones will. In Christianity, we begin with the will and knowledge of the Lord, and we conform to the deity, not the other way around.

Do you conform your God to your will when you invite him to be with you at your church meetings? Do you conform your God to your will when you invite your God into your heart?

Moreover, It would be interesting to know what determines these male and female traits, as it were. A goddess sounds like a female god

Yes She is a female god, hence the title Goddess.

 

[Havoc]

Lillithspeak:
So to whom do we go for authority? God.

God=ourselves.

Havoc: 1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

I'd agree with Havoc that controlling the Divine is not a wise practice; it's unethical. But I don't see how this is consistent with the first view.

If you truely had The God and Goddess in your heart you would know. People who are not Witches are not capable of understanding without the indwelling Holy Spirits.

 

[Havoc]

I really hope that I didn't offend you with my questions. I'm sorry if I did.

You did not offend. You asked questions frankly and without any attempt at entrapment that I could see. I certainly have no problems sharing my beliefs with someone who wishes to know the nature of those beliefs.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Do you conform your God to your will when you invite him to be with you at your church meetings? Do you conform your God to your will when you invite your God into your heart?

Very good question. But actually, we're conforming to His will since we gather, worship and pray at His sayso.

Yes She is a female god, hence the title Goddess.

But this would create a certain reliance, then. It lessens the deity.

(And no, I'm not insulting women, so everyone who was planning to pm me about it, doesn't need to.)

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

If you truely had The God and Goddess in your heart you would know. People who are not Witches are not capable of understanding without the indwelling Holy Spirits.

But surely you must be able to explain it, since you feel you have a part of this divine in you.

 

[Havoc]

Very good question. But actually, we're conforming to His will since we gather, worship and pray at His sayso.

We are conforming to His will, and Hers, by gathering, worshipping, and praying.

But this would create a certain reliance, then. It lessens the deity.

It creates no reliance, nor does it lessen the Divine.

 

[Havoc]

But surely you must be able to explain it, since you feel you have a part of this divine in you.

I have explained it. You're not capable of understanding it until you surrender your rebellion to God and Goddess and receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirits.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

We are conforming to His will, and Hers, by gathering, worshipping, and praying.

Well, is that the whole story? What about the magic? What about harnessing energy? I mean, you have to admit, your religion isn't just Christianity with the names changed. I'm debating with you sincerely, here.

It creates no reliance, nor does it lessen the Divine.

Okay, then let me ask you this. Tell me what you believe about how the earth got here, etc. etc. Do you believe in the big bang theory? The plasma ooze yarn? Some metamorphic omeba of unknown origin? Or do you feel your god/goddess had something to do with it through creation?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Lillithspeak:
So to whom do we go for authority? God.

God=ourselves.

Havoc: 1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

I'd agree with Havoc that controlling the Divine is not a wise practice; it's unethical. But I don't see how this is consistent with the first view.

Okay, let me ask this in a more direct fashion. Havoc, how are these two compatible? And don't fork this off on your spirits-I want to hear it from you. So go ahead and type really slowly. I'll try to catch on.

 

[GOD4ME]

An opinion is an opinion. If I say the moon is made out of cheese, then my opinion is that the moon is made out of cheese. My opinion is that wiccan is not moral. I'm not flaming anyone when I say this. Infact you don't relize it but you are the one's who are flaming! Again this is a debate topic when debating you are suposed to bring up evidence to support your point. You don't attack the other person. So please just debate!!!!

 

[Blissman]

Permit me to ask questions about Wicca which are not intended to offend. Rather, I have questions:

First, In one sense Christianity, and all faiths are invented by man. The reason is because we can not see or touch God. The existance of God is unprovable. We believe in God, and that all of our respective faiths to be true. Man wrote the Bible in the literal sense; we put pen to paper. Bibles and other biblical works are printed. God did not 'zap' each copy in to existance.

My question is, without absolutes, such as rules, commandemnts, and such, how can you call Wicca a religion? If Wicca is so interpreted by each person, does it become a matter of 'my opinion'? Does the ability to self-define, also mean that Wicca is each person's own opinion? "Do No Harm" is certainly an admirable and highly moral objective for someone to to live by, as is (paraphrased) 'Do Good'. The world would be a lot better if we all treated each one other by those ideals. But what is Harm? Who defines
'no good'? Not to slur your faith, but would it be conceivable for Adolf Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam to believe that what they had done was good, and not harm? Most faiths have finite rules for what is wrong. Does so liberal a definion make Wicca subject to (some) people to believe Wicca to be a 'trendy fasion'? Are there abosolute rules in Wicca?
I hope that I have not offended you by the question, I simply do not understand.

 

[Havoc]

Okay, let me ask this in a more direct fashion. Havoc, how are these two compatible? And don't fork this off on your spirits-I want to hear it from you. So go ahead and type really slowly. I'll try to catch on.

1. Witchcraft is not about controlling another. Witches value free will, both in ourselves and in others. To attempt to control another person or Divine being would be harmful and that is not permitted.

2. A Diety we could control wouldn't be much of a Diety. Also there is no reason I could think of why anyone would want to control the Divine.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you see an incompatibility in these two statements? If there is no imcompatibility then they are compatible. Perhaps you could explain why you see these as not being compatible so I can address the issue directly.